Moiraine post ToG

[Nightstrike]

Are you talking to me? Because I thought that was a relevant piece of information. How rare Moiraine is... She is very rare indeed. They've talked on how rare she is in the books.

[richnewton82]

.

[TheAngryDruid]

 

Unless I missed it, we don't really know what happened after Moiraine and Lanfear went in.

We know Moiraine's bond to Lan snapped, which we have only seen be caused by death and severing, and we know Moiraine isn't dead. We know ter'angreal are dangerous things that can kill or burn out the unwary, and this one was malfunctioning violently. We know Lanfear was held by the Finns for a time, and that she came back in a new body, weaker. We know the Finns can't give a new body. The only thing we know that can cause a drop in strength like that is being Healed by a woman. So they were burnt out by the ter'angreal, held by the Finns, Lanfear died and came back as Cyndane, and was weaker when Healed. Evidence. Like I said.

 

The first half of that has nothing to do with Lanfear at all. The rest still fits the alternative theory, so I don't see as how that disproves it.

 

You seem ready to call out the 21 level list as just a theory with substantiating evidence, but when that "evidence" fits your own theory (or one you support), you think it is "proven" when it isn't. It's just a theory that fist the facts, but has a few holes (strength issues).

 

I'll run it through for you. Mierin goes to Finnland in the AOL (by the TOG, Portal Stone, or even via T'A'R in the flesh). She wishes for max power/max beauty or both. She re-enters for the second time when Moiraine knocks her through. The Finns are pissed. They take back the gifts they give, her strength returns to Mierin level (which is still strong). She either dies later at the hands of the Finns, or the DO assassinates her (via T'A'R, Slayer, whatever) in order to free her and reincarnate the body.

 

Now, if there is knowledge out there that makes the theory impossible, please share it. Forgive me, I don't have 3,000 posts. And I'm open to multiple ideas for how something could happen (unlike others on here, apparently).

 

Both "theories" have their issues. But either could be true.

 

Healed by a Woman Issues:

 

The healed by a woman theory has an issue with the strength drop. The absolute strength drop is the best explanation, but is has problems. Namely, what if a weak channeler (Morgase) or the weak sister from Cadsuane's group got stilled and then healed by a woman? Would they be unable to channel? As the "absolute" strength drop has now taken them below zero? But I think it IS possible. And I'll reiterate, doesn't perfect female form and maximum strength in the power seem a little fishy?

 

Some evidence to support the fishiness:

 

When Cyndane feels Alivia and figures out she's stronger in ACOS at the cleansing, she thinks (something to the effect of) "she was stronger than Cyndane before the she was held, but no one could be stronger."

Point being, how does she know "no one could be stronger" absent some wish to be as strong as one could be? How could anyone know no one could be stronger? If the DO could do it, he'd do it for all his channelers, wouldn't he.

 

Again, if this theory has been disproven, please share with me the evidence that does so, so I (and the thread) can move on, instead of spouting vitriolic statements that it has already been disproven. Without the actual evidence disproving the theory, to me it just looks like circular reasoning.

 

Otherwise, I think you have two theories that still fit the facts.

 

 

 

 

[Muad Cheade]

 

Unless I missed it, we don't really know what happened after Moiraine and Lanfear went in.

We know Moiraine's bond to Lan snapped, which we have only seen be caused by death and severing, and we know Moiraine isn't dead. We know ter'angreal are dangerous things that can kill or burn out the unwary, and this one was malfunctioning violently. We know Lanfear was held by the Finns for a time, and that she came back in a new body, weaker. We know the Finns can't give a new body. The only thing we know that can cause a drop in strength like that is being Healed by a woman. So they were burnt out by the ter'angreal, held by the Finns, Lanfear died and came back as Cyndane, and was weaker when Healed. Evidence. Like I said.

 

The first half of that has nothing to do with Lanfear at all. The rest still fits the alternative theory, so I don't see as how that disproves it.

 

You seem ready to call out the 21 level list as just a theory with substantiating evidence, but when that "evidence" fits your own theory (or one you support), you think it is "proven" when it isn't. It's just a theory that fist the facts, but has a few holes (strength issues).

 

I'll run it through for you. Mierin goes to Finnland in the AOL (by the TOG, Portal Stone, or even via T'A'R in the flesh). She wishes for max power/max beauty or both. She re-enters for the second time when Moiraine knocks her through. The Finns are pissed. They take back the gifts they give, her strength returns to Mierin level (which is still strong). She either dies later at the hands of the Finns, or the DO assassinates her (via T'A'R, Slayer, whatever) in order to free her and reincarnate the body.

 

Now, if there is knowledge out there that makes the theory impossible, please share it. Forgive me, I don't have 3,000 posts. And I'm open to multiple ideas for how something could happen (unlike others on here, apparently).

 

Both "theories" have their issues. But either could be true.

 

Healed by a Woman Issues:

 

The healed by a woman theory has an issue with the strength drop. The absolute strength drop is the best explanation, but is has problems. Namely, what if a weak channeler (Morgase) or the weak sister from Cadsuane's group got stilled and then healed by a woman? Would they be unable to channel? As the "absolute" strength drop has now taken them below zero? But I think it IS possible. And I'll reiterate, doesn't perfect female form and maximum strength in the power seem a little fishy?

 

Some evidence to support the fishiness:

 

When Cyndane feels Alivia and figures out she's stronger in ACOS at the cleansing, she thinks (something to the effect of) "she was stronger than Cyndane before the she was held, but no one could be stronger."

Point being, how does she know "no one could be stronger" absent some wish to be as strong as one could be? How could anyone know no one could be stronger? If the DO could do it, he'd do it for all his channelers, wouldn't he.

 

Again, if this theory has been disproven, please share with me the evidence that does so, so I (and the thread) can move on, instead of spouting vitriolic statements that it has already been disproven. Without the actual evidence disproving the theory, to me it just looks like circular reasoning.

 

Otherwise, I think you have two theories that still fit the facts.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think the Finns have the ability to change something as personal as someone's ability to channel. Channeling is connected to the soul, so to answer your second note, I don't think someone who can barely channel is stilled and then healed will lose the ability to channel. You can still hold the Source for example and there are still ter'angeal that could make someone effective.

 

 

[wconn1979]

 

Unless I missed it, we don't really know what happened after Moiraine and Lanfear went in.

We know Moiraine's bond to Lan snapped, which we have only seen be caused by death and severing, and we know Moiraine isn't dead. We know ter'angreal are dangerous things that can kill or burn out the unwary, and this one was malfunctioning violently. We know Lanfear was held by the Finns for a time, and that she came back in a new body, weaker. We know the Finns can't give a new body. The only thing we know that can cause a drop in strength like that is being Healed by a woman. So they were burnt out by the ter'angreal, held by the Finns, Lanfear died and came back as Cyndane, and was weaker when Healed. Evidence. Like I said.

 

The first half of that has nothing to do with Lanfear at all. The rest still fits the alternative theory, so I don't see as how that disproves it.

 

You seem ready to call out the 21 level list as just a theory with substantiating evidence, but when that "evidence" fits your own theory (or one you support), you think it is "proven" when it isn't. It's just a theory that fist the facts, but has a few holes (strength issues).

 

I'll run it through for you. Mierin goes to Finnland in the AOL (by the TOG, Portal Stone, or even via T'A'R in the flesh). She wishes for max power/max beauty or both. She re-enters for the second time when Moiraine knocks her through. The Finns are pissed. They take back the gifts they give, her strength returns to Mierin level (which is still strong). She either dies later at the hands of the Finns, or the DO assassinates her (via T'A'R, Slayer, whatever) in order to free her and reincarnate the body.

 

Now, if there is knowledge out there that makes the theory impossible, please share it. Forgive me, I don't have 3,000 posts. And I'm open to multiple ideas for how something could happen (unlike others on here, apparently).

 

Both "theories" have their issues. But either could be true.

 

Healed by a Woman Issues:

 

The healed by a woman theory has an issue with the strength drop. The absolute strength drop is the best explanation, but is has problems. Namely, what if a weak channeler (Morgase) or the weak sister from Cadsuane's group got stilled and then healed by a woman? Would they be unable to channel? As the "absolute" strength drop has now taken them below zero? But I think it IS possible. And I'll reiterate, doesn't perfect female form and maximum strength in the power seem a little fishy?

 

Some evidence to support the fishiness:

 

When Cyndane feels Alivia and figures out she's stronger in ACOS at the cleansing, she thinks (something to the effect of) "she was stronger than Cyndane before the she was held, but no one could be stronger."

Point being, how does she know "no one could be stronger" absent some wish to be as strong as one could be? How could anyone know no one could be stronger? If the DO could do it, he'd do it for all his channelers, wouldn't he.

 

Again, if this theory has been disproven, please share with me the evidence that does so, so I (and the thread) can move on, instead of spouting vitriolic statements that it has already been disproven. Without the actual evidence disproving the theory, to me it just looks like circular reasoning.

 

Otherwise, I think you have two theories that still fit the facts.

 

 

 

The only problem I have with this theory is that Matt tried several times to go through the door again and it did not function for him, I do not have an exact reference from the book but I could swear I remember him trying to go through again.

[dwn]

I'll run it through for you. Mierin goes to Finnland in the AOL (by the TOG, Portal Stone, or even via T'A'R in the flesh). She wishes for max power/max beauty or both.

 

[...]

 

Both "theories" have their issues. But either could be true.

 

Technically true. Either theory could be correct.  But they are not equal, because the stilled-killed-resurrected-healed one has evidence to support it and the other does not.

 

Mierin:

might have been genetically engineered

might have been a One Power test subject during her undergraduate studies

might have been dosed with Chemical X as an infant

 

These theories are just as possible as Lanfear getting beauty and strength from the *finn in the AOL.

 

When Cyndane feels Alivia and figures out she's stronger in ACOS at the cleansing, she thinks (something to the effect of) "she was stronger than Cyndane before the she was held, but no one could be stronger."

 

The actual quote is: "She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger!"  [KOD, With the Choedan Kal]

 

This is an ambiguous quote at best. Cyndane can lie, to others and to herself. She is certainly arrogant enough to believe that no woman could be stronger than she had been, and be indignant when confronted with a woman who might be.

 

-- dwn

 

[Muad Cheade]

Also, you have to factor in that Alivia had Nynaeve's sa'angreal which could explain part of why Lanfear/Cyndane was surprised that someone was that strong.

[dwn]

Also, you have to factor in that Alivia had Nynaeve's sa'angreal which could explain part of why Lanfear/Cyndane was surprised that someone was that strong.

 

Yes, I think that was clearly why Alivia seemed stronger than Lanfear had been (Cyndane even considers that). Nynaeve's bracelet-and-rings angreal is supposed to be fairly strong.

 

-- dwn

[Mr Ares]

My meaning is usually pretty clear.

And the relevance is zero.

About as much as your maths.

 

I wonder if you have to train to be that sociopathic or you're just born that way.

A little of both. Born that way helps, but you still need a lot of training to do it right.

 

The first half of that has nothing to do with Lanfear at all.

It has to do with Moiraine. How do you explain her situation? My theory explains both, quite simply, while accounting for all the evidence.

 

You seem ready to call out the 21 level list as just a theory with substantiating evidence, but when that "evidence" fits your own theory (or one you support), you think it is "proven" when it isn't.

The 21 level list is just a theory. Much of the evidence is still sound, though. If we have a statement saying x is stronger than y, then x is stronger. Doesn't mean we can say x is a level 19 and y is a level 14. And we don't always have statements saying x is stronger, yet they still try and make placements.

 

She wishes for max power/max beauty or both.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Subjective. So how could she be the most beautiful woman in the world? Their powers cannot affect the outside world, so they could either put her in a world with no other women or do something to her. Either change her physically (but not give her a new body - the quote ruling that out has already been posted), or cast a glamour over her, so everyone sees her as beautiful. The descriptions all match, and they don't match with Cyndane (height and hair colour, for example). So they made a natural blonde the most beautiful brunette in the world? The beauty thing has too many holes. Realistically, Cyndane must be a whole new body, and therefore we have no reason to believe Lanfear's beauty anything other than natural. At best, you have her wishing for strength.

The Finns are pissed.

Why?

Both "theories" have their issues.

No, they don't. And one also has evidence to support it, not jsut an "it's not impossible".

The healed by a woman theory has an issue with the strength drop.

No, it doesn't. We do not know what mechanism determines strength loss. So we cannot say differences in amount are relevant (nor even provable). There is no difference in kind. She has lost strength, not just been shielded, which means the only comparable thing is Siuan and Leane.

 

When Cyndane feels Alivia and figures out she's stronger in ACOS at the cleansing

The Cleansing is in WH. And Lanfear was around in an Age where channeling was common, so she would have encountered a lot of them, and she worked as a reasearcher in the OP. There is no-one among the Chosen better placed to say with any degree of certainty that Lanfear was at the upper limit in strength, even leaving aside the fact that the Chosen lie to themselves about strength.

 

And your theory fails to address many facts, even if it doesn't contradict them. That hardly makes it a good fit.

[Nightstrike]

My meaning is usually pretty clear.

And the relevance is zero.

About as much as your maths.

It doesn't take much knowledge of math at all to understand that, if we have a perfectly symmetric curve from 0% to 100% of Lanfears strength, then Cyndane can't have lost the same amount of strength as Siuan. Not even close. What part of that explanation is it that you don't understand? Do you want me to explain it in any greater detail?

 

Before this, I've also proved that the curves can't be symmetric about the mean.

[Nightstrike]

Even if the curve had been symmetric, from 0 percent to 100 percent of Lanfear's strength, and Siuan had been exactly at the average of all potential channelers (how silly of me to even talk about it!) it would still not have helped Mr Ares any. Because then Lanfear should have lost at least 0.25, which lands Cyndane at 0.75. That would have meant that 14 percent of all potential channeler souls are stronger than Cyndane. There were hundreds of thousands of channeler souls during the AoL, and there are slightly less than a thousand Aes Sedai today. Plus all the Wise Ones, and so on...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

What part of that explanation is it that you don't understand?

Which part of "doesn't matter" did you confuse with "don't understand." Your equations aren't relevant. You're not proving anything other than you know a bit about maths.

[Nightstrike]

That's fascinating... Or not. Anyway, why do you have that notion?

[Majsju]

Ok, enough is enough. The behaviour right now in this thread is not acceptable. If this does not change for the better I will close the thread.

[Nightstrike]

Is it something I said? If so, then what? Because I've wanted to know what he's talking about for pages, and all he says is that "what you say doesn't matter". That's not going anywhere...

[TheAngryDruid]

Thanks for the points, everyone.

 

Regarding Mat not being able to go through, I had forgotten that, and it is indeed true, he tried to go back through right after he went through in Tear, and nothing happened. However, there are other path's to Finnland (Tower of G., Portal Stone, T'A'R). So although I bungled it initially, it really isn't decisive.

 

Regarding the Finns not having the ability to give more channeling ability, or more beauty, for that matter. Certainly possible. But I think the gifts would be similar to the fortune telling, as long as it is about yourself, they can grant wishes. In any case, I don't remember any specific limitations.

 

Lastly, I don't think the two theories are necessarily equal, I just think both are possible. And I'll still maintain there really isn't any direct evidence at all for the healed theory, it just fits the facts.

 

All we really have is that brief Cyndane POV. Nothing yet from Moiraine or from Cyndane about how she came to be as she it, or what happened to her/them beyond the doorway. I guess we'll find out eventually.

 

Anyway, thanks for the input. I appreciate it.

 

Back on topic, I think Mo will be stilled, and healed to full strength shortly thereafter.

 

[Nightstrike]

Back on topic, I think Mo will be stilled, and healed to full strength shortly thereafter.

I agree on Moiraine being burnt out. I think most people would agree on that.

 

As far as Cyndane's loss of strength goes, I'd say that she was burnt out along with Moiraine. There can be little doubt about that. Then we know that she was held by the finns. Somehow she must have ended up in another body, and the DO is the only viable option that we know of. I very much doubt the finns could have provided it. So, Lanfear's loss of strength is most likely due to being burnt out and then Healed by a woman. Siuan and Leane were stilled, not burnt out. I wonder if that could mean that we have a smaller percentage being lost when you're burnt out, then Healed, than it is when you're stilled, then Healed? If it is a percentage in both cases, then that's the only way of explaining it.

 

 

[richnewton82]

.

[ShadowStalker]

Is the ability to channel connected to the body or to the soul. There seems to be evidence for the soul with Arangar retaining the ability to channel Saidin. However that is speculation. Unless RJ said anything to completely prove it.

 

However, if it is connected to the body, couldn't the DO punish Lanfear by giving her a weaker body. (heck even if it connected to the soul the DO could have done it as punishment)

 

Even crazier theory...

Moraine's three wishes in the door frame

1. Kill Asmo

2. Switch strength in the Power with Lanfear

3. Kill Lanfear.

 

Not sure how much I believe any of that...

[Nightstrike]

Is the ability to channel connected to the body or to the soul.

Elements from both are needed. I've got no idea whether OP strength is determined by soul alone, or if there are biological factors also.

 

There seems to be evidence for the soul with Arangar retaining the ability to channel Saidin. However that is speculation. Unless RJ said anything to completely prove it.

Yes, she channels saidin. And she is probably at the same strength as before, or at least very close. I'd guess that the same goes for the rest of the resurrected Forsaken (except Cyndane, of course).

 

However, if it is connected to the body, couldn't the DO punish Lanfear by giving her a weaker body. (heck even if it connected to the soul the DO could have done it as punishment)

I think he should value her strength. But I can certainly not say how RJ intended it.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Is the ability to channel connected to the body or to the soul.

Both. According to RJ. Strength appears to not be determined by body, as the other three are the same strength.