The DO will be the underdog in Tarmon Gai'don?

[Yizun]

Gotsta side with the Sheikh.

Really? I gotsta side with the Jordan.

Refer to the aforementioned Kool Aid.

Refer to the aforementioned ignoring of facts that don't fit your argument. Famine, rats everwhere, millions strong Trolloc armies, the Light divided against itself, and infiltrated by the Shadow. Doesn't look much like the Light is winning. And RJ had a fuller appreciation of the situation than anyone else.

 

Believe what you want.  I'll ignore facts that I want to, you ignore the ones you want.  I see a guy defending his work.  I see you running out the same laundry list.  I'm not sure, but was there ever an audio recording of this specific RJ interview?  I seem to remember him being worked up about this defense.

 

And that's because the argument is valid.  You can go with rats, weevils, Trollocs, whatever you want.  You can't ignore that in the climactic scenes throughout the series, Light is something-and-oh in wins and losses with maybe a couple draws thrown in by some of the scoring judges.  And Dark is No Wins, mostly losses, and some draws.  And some (maybe more than some) of Dark's greatest losses have been due to the ridiculous ineptitude of Dark's leaders.  That's the basis of the argument.  Ignore it if you want.  I present you 8 dead Forsaken, 5 permanently, and you come back with rats and food shortages.  I'm not ignoring your argument, I just find it lacking.

 

Oh no! The Dark One lost 5 Forsaken? Huh. And here i was thinking it was not that big of a deal because he had well over 100 Asha'Man for sure on his side.

 

Also. You may say rats and food shortages are not that big of a deal, but lets have a little test. Starve yourself for 5 days, while having a sickness... lets say the common Flu. Now. Get up out of bed and go fight 8 foot tall monsters out of your nightmares.

[richnewton82]

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[sheikh chilli]

I gotta admit the first time I read that interview with RJ where he tries to play up how much of an advantage the Dark has at the moment my first reaction was "ehhhhhh." I think he isn't just defending the story and it is true that the Dark is really winning but it just isn't written well enough. We've seen major events always end up with the Light winning. Forsaken getting killed, Saidin getting cleansed, Rand escaping or overcome challenges again and again. What RJ has tried to do through the small details with the dead rising, constantly talking about weavils and rats and such, food spoilage, wards failing, sudden strangeness, etc. etc. just hasn't impacted the reader very much. Either it hasn't been written well enough or it hasn't been severe enough to have any kind of impact on the reader. When we see people actually starting to die enmasse because of starvation or some other really important things, most importantly though, things that start to impact our heroes and side characters personally (rather than just foul tasting porridge).. then we'll get what RJ is saying. Maybe we'll see it in TGS.. I would certainly hope. But the first time I read that passage by RJ I just had this image of a used car salesman trying to hype up some feature that obviously isn't clear on the surface. After 4 read throughs I still don't feel the urgency that RJ said was there.

 

 

 

exactly. it seemed as if robert jordan was hyping his work and dont get me wrong nothing wrong with that but there is no sense of epic strugglke here. food shortages, famine and rats are besides the point. they can be tackled once the dark one's influence is cut of from the rest of the world.

 

 

but like havoc said, dead forsaken, captured ones, forsaken humbled like aes sedai, saidin cleansed, letting rand live all points to some serious issues within the shadow forces.

 

 

it does not matter if the forces of light are disunited right now because unity can be formed out of a common desperation once the last battle is upon them. but it's hard to replace man power and the dark ones' genrals are getting depleted as we speak.

 

havoc: ishy did try to convert lews therin after the sealing but my point was there was no conversion  during the war itself. and ofcurse they didn't have to since they were winning.

 

 

mr ares,

 

ishy tried to kill rand only when he realised that he could not convert him any longer and he was being too strong for his own good. he failed. now how dumb moridin can be when he thinks he has a chance of conversion of rand when rand is so much different than the bumbling fool he was back in TDR. in the words of einsteain, everyone makes a mistake but only a fool does not learn from it. ishy's plan of conversion failed. how dumb is moridn for thinking he could do it again? for such a dumb move sammael died. what a fool.

 

 

as for moriane she is alive and that means not one single light character has perished. it seems the forces of light cannot be killed.

 

 

 

the shadow have resorted to such pitiful things like famine, rats, creating discord etc when they are way behind the bigger picture. 13 powerful forsaken have become just a few. their man tormentor escaped their grasp so many times and mostly due to their own incompetence. the taint on saidin is gone.

 

 

at this point all the forces of shadow have is a few million trollocs armies, some dreadlords from the black tower, a few incompetent forsaken. the forces of light are one step away from blasting them. you have what. just a mended black tower under logain, a mended white tower under egwene from destroying the shadow's pitiful attempts at creating discord.

 

 

the light's main weapons are still there. the male choedan kal is still there, the aiel is still there. the towers are still there. faine and rats are just side shows to the main event.

[richnewton82]

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[Yizun]

^ To Sheik's post:

 

I have to disagree with you there. While the light may have some really powerful weapons, you are over looking the fact that, even though they are powerful, they need to be used by humans. However to be properly functional, humans need to have fuel (food) and to be in good health (not sick).

 

Rats spread disease. In this series, while the Aes Sedai and Asha'Man can heal really well, if a plague like the Bubonic Plague in Europe breaks out, thousands upon thousands will die.

 

The food rotting is a MAJOR concern for anything alive. People need to have something to eat or they will not be able to walk, much less fight. Imagine having a powerful engine that can go from 0-60 in half a second. But you have no fuel for it so it is completely useless.

[sheikh chilli]

^ to be fair, at this point we don't know that Moridin is keeping Rand alive to try to convert him but because he's realized he will experience anything Rand experiences. I think he's acting from self preservation at this point. However, as I've said elsewhere, Ishy has been around a long long time and is a philosopher. He knows that the only way for the DO to truly win is to turn Rand. Even if he has to keep trying, that's the only way. So yes, making the same mistake over and over is dumb, but he's got no other option.

 

the dark one was winning during the war of power until lews therin sealed the bore. he did not need his conversion back then.

 

ishy failed in converting rand so why is moridin repeating the same mistake. ishy failed twice and yet moridin is still clueless.

[richnewton82]

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[sheikh chilli]

^ To Sheik's post:

 

I have to disagree with you there. While the light may have some really powerful weapons, you are over looking the fact that, even though they are powerful, they need to be used by humans. However to be properly functional, humans need to have fuel (food) and to be in good health (not sick).

 

Rats spread disease. In this series, while the Aes Sedai and Asha'Man can heal really well, if a plague like the Bubonic Plague in Europe breaks out, thousands upon thousands will die.

 

The food rotting is a MAJOR concern for anything alive. People need to have something to eat or they will not be able to walk, much less fight. Imagine having a powerful engine that can go from 0-60 in half a second. But you have no fuel for it so it is completely useless.

 

 

you are also forgetting that the forces of light can travel. they can travel to areas where famine has not happened and gather food there. this whole issue of food rotting and rats is really just inewffectual poor move on the part of the shadow in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

 

[richnewton82]

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[Yizun]

^ To Sheik's post:

 

I have to disagree with you there. While the light may have some really powerful weapons, you are over looking the fact that, even though they are powerful, they need to be used by humans. However to be properly functional, humans need to have fuel (food) and to be in good health (not sick).

 

Rats spread disease. In this series, while the Aes Sedai and Asha'Man can heal really well, if a plague like the Bubonic Plague in Europe breaks out, thousands upon thousands will die.

 

The food rotting is a MAJOR concern for anything alive. People need to have something to eat or they will not be able to walk, much less fight. Imagine having a powerful engine that can go from 0-60 in half a second. But you have no fuel for it so it is completely useless.

 

 

you are also forgetting that the forces of light can travel. they can travel to areas where famine has not happened and gather food there. this whole issue of food rotting and rats is really just inewffectual poor move on the part of the shadow in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

 

 

But that is just the thing. The Dark One can make the Famine span the entire globe. I mean he put a taint on something that turns the Wheel of Time itself. I seriously doubt the famine is limited to just the continent where the major war is taking place. Plus you cant forget that you have to know the area you want to Travel to. So even if it was not world-wide, how would they get there in back in time-sufficient manner? Plus how would they even get it in the first place? Wage a third war with someone they dont even know?

[sheikh chilli]

rich,

 

the dark one does not need rand to win. read the strike on shayol ghul again

 

This plan was considered risky for a number of reasons. Even today it is known that the Dark One has a certain degree of effect on the world close around Shayol Ghul, and it was probable that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed. Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely.

 

 

as you can see the dark one's prison can be completely broken without the need for the dragon to change allegiances. the risk of misplacing the seals has also been echoed by lews therin himself.

 

Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that was now the only chance

 

 

sure it would an awesome coup for the dark one if rand became his but that's not the only way for him to win.

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

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[Charlz Guybon]

^ That's all well and good but the books, up until recently, have not been written with the same sense of urgency, despair, and overwhelming forboding that RJ tried to conjure in that interview. If he wants us to see it the way he does, he needed to write it better. Atleast in the Prologue to TGS we start to see some serious foreboding with the storm and such. Before that it just wasn't urgent AT ALL. I should be reading the story and feeling a shadow across the pattern. I don't. RJ wants me to but I don't. Why is that my fault?

 

Really? I think Crossroads of Twilight and Knife of Dreams are chock full of despair. Just look at So Harbor, that entire town's just given up.

[Charlz Guybon]

rich,

 

the dark one does not need rand to win. read the strike on shayol ghul again

 

This plan was considered risky for a number of reasons. Even today it is known that the Dark One has a certain degree of effect on the world close around Shayol Ghul, and it was probable that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed. Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none. Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely.

 

 

as you can see the dark one's prison can be completely broken without the need for the dragon to change allegiances. the risk of misplacing the seals has also been echoed by lews therin himself.

 

Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that was now the only chance

 

 

sure it would an awesome coup for the dark one if rand became his but that's not the only way for him to win.

 

He didn't need him to turn, but he needed him to show up at Shayol Ghul.

 

Just like he will need Rand to show up there again for the last battle.

[richnewton82]

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[Charlz Guybon]

Exactly though.. an insignificant town with no emotional attachment to the reader at all. We need it to hit us where it counts - with people and places we're invested in.

 

The character's we're invested in will not personally starve because they are the most powerful people in the world. However they can't win the war against the shadow if their armies starve. Great men are merely at the top of a pyramid comprised of an entire nation. If the foundation crumbles the great man can't do anything. Germany crushed Russia, but lost the first world war because of the debilitating effects of the British blockade that was starving the nation.

[richnewton82]

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[havoc110]

The So Harbor example is perhaps the best of RJ following through with what he says in that interview.  You do get that feeling of despair and foreboding.  But, I'm sorry, the rest is just window dressing. Famine hasn't prevented the fielding of huge armies out in the field, has it?  Do we have some undefended fortresses in the borderlands cause there aren't people and/or supplies.  Nope none of that.  There doesn't even seem like a shortage, just an abundance of weevil infested grains and over-spiced-almost-rotting meats that the forces of Light stoically ignore at every meal. And rats, yes; plague, no.  The rat infestation is just words, signifying nothing. 

 

Hey, I partook of the Iraq war Kool-Aid.  Wow, was I duped.  But this "Dark is winning, really" Kool-Aid is too much for me to take.  Clearly some of us had a couple refills too.

[Ted M]

Personally, I do get the sense of dark foreboding.  

 

The forces of the light have won victory after victory, and what has it gotten them?

 

The taint has been cleansed... but Rand is still losing his mind, and a significant portion of the other male channelers have followed Taim into the dark.

 

The wonder girls used the bowl of the winds to fix the weather, but did that really solve anything?  There's still all the famine and pestilence a DO could want.

 

Forsaken have died, but some have been brought back, and Taim (and possibly others) are stepping up into powerful roles for the dark, and some of them are still out there sowing chaos.

 

The forces of the light are hardly monolithic at this point.  Both the White and Black towers are split.  The Seanchan haven't made peace with the rest of Randland yet.  Tear, Illian, Cairhien, and Andor are all in Rand's camp, but none of them can be relied on completely, as even though their most rebellious factions have been dealt with, even the loyal nobles have never been all that loyal.  Further, what percentage of the soldiers and officers in the armies of the light will turn out to be Darkfriend fifth columnists ready to turn on their comrades during the final battle?

 

While all of this is going on, the DO is getting closer and closer to breaking free, and the world is starting to come apart.  In addition to war, famine and pestilence, the "bubbles of evil" are everywhere, it's becoming harder and harder for ordinary people to survive, even if they've never seen a darkfriend or shadowspawn, much less a forsaken.

 

In other words, the way things stand at the beginning of The Gathering Storm the forces of the Light are winning every battle, but losing the war.  There are reasons to have hope (most of them in the form of foreshadowing and prophesy), but right now things aren't looking so good.

 

 

[Seven of Nine]

Well, it's not quite as simple as that. When Logain comes to see Rand in KoD, the books talks about how people would have died from eating food that had gone bad if it weren't for the AS who were there to heal them. That's what we'd heard of. It doesn't mean there's not food poisoning going on that we haven't heard about . . . yet.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

How about this. We take all the "Rand is too sucky to win the LB" people, put them in a room with the "The DO is too sucky to win the LB" people, and the rest of us can enjoy tGS and all the ambiguity about the result of the LB contained therein.

 

:P

 

Seriously though, if you don't get the sense of foreboding, without wanting to be a smart-arse, that sounds like a personal problem. Perhaps you, and a handful of others, simply don't mix well with RJ's writing style? If thats so, then I find it unfortunate for you guys that can't just enjoy the masterpiece that the rest of us are. If you have such contention with what he says he is writing, as opposed to what you see he is writing, then isn't the simple answer to not read the books? Or if you take exception to what you perceive to be a lie from the author, again, wouldn't your morals dictate that you don't want to support such an unsavoury charcter who is lieing to his fans?

 

We all have our PoV's. I can state confidently that the majority of people 'get' the level of despair and foreboding that RJ has instilled. I get that you can't see it. You get that we can. Nothing is going to sway the other party, because in our head, we are right. And we are, because it's subjective.

 

Finally, I'd also like to point out, that despite the many victories of the Light, it only takes one victory for the DO to win the war.

[havoc110]

Perhaps it is you, dear reader, who should not view forums where a contrarian opinion may pass across your computer screen.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

I'm pretty ok with peoples opinions. I can submit to better logic and hold true to my own, whatever the situation is. I guess I fell into the trap by replying here, but this is a very subjective topic. There will be no clear cut decision/winner, there arn't any more valid points to be made, because what each party is trying to do is influence the others SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE with the text. It's impossible, at this point. We can drudge up quotes from the book, and interviews etc etc, but it's not going to change anything.

 

I just can't help adding my two cents sometimes, and for my trouble I get told to not view the forum?

 

I'm not saying you are understanding the books wrong.

 

I'm saying you understand them DIFFERENTLY to me. And short of some bolt from the sky, neither party is going to capitulate.

 

So why do I keep on posting...? :P

[richnewton82]

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