Is moridin a fool or is shaitan clueless?

[OptimusPrime]

Well, unless TG conviently waits for Rand to grow up again, and also allow the Light to find him, again, I'd say that if Rand is killed its lookin good for the Shadow.

 

Hows this for Random?

 

If, say, Rand died and his soul went into T'A'R, and then someone went to T'A'R in the flesh and encountered Rand, whats the chance of Rand being able to take over that person, and step back into the real world in their body?

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Well, unless TG conviently waits for Rand to grow up again, and also allow the Light to find him, again, I'd say that if Rand is killed its lookin good for the Shadow.

 

Hows this for Random?

 

If, say, Rand died and his soul went into T'A'R, and then someone went to T'A'R in the flesh and encountered Rand, whats the chance of Rand being able to take over that person, and step back into the real world in their body?

 

Even better. Rand is physically pulled out of T'A'R. Therefore, he CANNOT DIE! OF COURSE! THIS IS HOW HE DIES AND LIVES AGAIN! OMFG I WIN!

[sheikh chilli]

so let me get this straight. if the DO kills rand he still loses because the wheel will bring forth another dragon just in time for tarmon gaidon? what a load of tosh.

 

remember age of legends. remember the forces of light getting overrun until lews therin took matters into his own hands. imagine if he died before sealing the bore. are u telling me we would have another lews therin emerge from somewhere all of a sudden?pfft!

 

this whole process of conversion strikes me as some sort of copeout to let rand survive the so called insourmountable odds. it failed with ishy twice. and the DO still does not get it. in the end the dumb ass order of not killing rand will destroy him.

 

 

 

optimus prime,

 

i like the books ofcourse. i am just pointing out the oddities of certain actionns

[Padraic_Seebrr]

so let me get this straight. if the DO kills rand he still loses because the wheel will bring forth another dragon just in time for tarmon gaidon? what a load of tosh.

 

remember age of legends. remember the forces of light getting overrun until lews therin took matters into his own hands. imagine if he died before sealing the bore. are u telling me we would have another lews therin emerge from somewhere all of a sudden?pfft!

 

this whole process of conversion strikes me as some sort of copeout to let rand survive the so called insourmountable odds. it failed with ishy twice. and the DO still does not get it. in the end the dumb ass order of not killing rand will destroy him.

 

 

 

optimus prime,

 

i like the books ofcourse. i am just pointing out the oddities of certain actionns

 

While I agree with almost everything you say there, I think that the reason the Dark One wanted to convert Rand so bad at first was because then he would have a 100% chance of victory. I believe the reason there is a no-kill order on Rand right now is so the Dark One can use Rand to increase chaos, improving his chances at winning even more.

 

P.S. When you use words like "dumb ass order" and cuss the book out, it really does seem like you don't like the series :P.

[sheikh chilli]

improve his chances of victory? the idiot trapped in the shayol ghul would have won if he simply told moridin to blow rand away as he was fighting sammael. why go for chances when victory is right in front of you?

 

i like the books but it feels like i have been cheated out of an awesome battle at the end of ACOS. besides i kinda like sammael and i feel bummed when he died as moridin stood by.

 

and i still believe the don't kill rand order is a dumb ass move and will prove to be the DO's undoing.

 

not the chodan kal

not the ashaman

not mat or perrin

not the one power

not andor

not alivia

 

but the no kill order. The moment that was issued was the moment the light has won and the DO lost

[Vambram]

but the no kill order. The moment that was issued was the moment the light has won and the DO lost

 

Do you know that you are disagreeing with the author himself, of the WOT series, Robert Jordan?

Allow me to provide an interesting quote for you:

 

On his blog, Robert Jordan described Rand and his situation like this:

 

The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don’t even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

 

Think of it this way. The bell is about to ring for the fifteenth round, and the Light is so far behind on points the only way to win is a knockout. Our boy is game, but he’s wobbly on his legs and bleeding from cuts over his eyes. Now he has three minutes to pull out his best stuff and deliver the punch of his life. The Dark One has taken a few shots, but nothing that has really damaged him. He’s still dancing on his toes and talking trash. His head shots can fracture a skull, and his body punches can break ribs. And now he’s ready to unveil his surprises. You didn’t think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn’t ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That’s your only chance.

 

 

So, whose assessment of WOT should we believe?

 

 

 

[sheikh chilli]

but the no kill order. The moment that was issued was the moment the light has won and the DO lost

 

Do you know that you are disagreeing with the author himself, of the WOT series, Robert Jordan?

Allow me to provide an interesting quote for you:

 

On his blog, Robert Jordan described Rand and his situation like this:

 

The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don’t even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

 

Think of it this way. The bell is about to ring for the fifteenth round, and the Light is so far behind on points the only way to win is a knockout. Our boy is game, but he’s wobbly on his legs and bleeding from cuts over his eyes. Now he has three minutes to pull out his best stuff and deliver the punch of his life. The Dark One has taken a few shots, but nothing that has really damaged him. He’s still dancing on his toes and talking trash. His head shots can fracture a skull, and his body punches can break ribs. And now he’s ready to unveil his surprises. You didn’t think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn’t ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That’s your only chance.

 

 

So, whose assessment of WOT should we believe?

 

 

 

 

 

i prefer to believe what i have read so far. rand is doing pretty well. Yes he's turning to a complete unfeeling bastard and got his hand blown off but there is no order to kill. he can chill till tarmon gaiden the forces of light having nothing to worry about since their saviour will end up in TG one way or the other. the do can have his civil wars and mischief and chaos but in the end his prison will  be resealed and he will look back to the day he gave that retarded order to moridin and everyone else and hopefully curses himself

[Vambram]

i prefer to believe what i have read so far. rand is doing pretty well. Yes he's turning to a complete unfeeling bastard and got his hand blown off but there is no order to kill. he can chill till tarmon gaiden the forces of light having nothing to worry about since their saviour will end up in TG one way or the other. the do can have his civil wars and mischief and chaos but in the end his prison will  be resealed and he will look back to the day he gave that retarded order to moridin and everyone else and hopefully curses himself.

 

 

 

 

Soooo, you prefer your own interpretation of what you have read.. instead of what Robert Jordan himself has analyzed about his own story that he has written.

[The Desert Pea]

but the no kill order. The moment that was issued was the moment the light has won and the DO lost

 

Do you know that you are disagreeing with the author himself, of the WOT series, Robert Jordan?

Allow me to provide an interesting quote for you:

 

On his blog, Robert Jordan described Rand and his situation like this:

 

The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don’t even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

 

Think of it this way. The bell is about to ring for the fifteenth round, and the Light is so far behind on points the only way to win is a knockout. Our boy is game, but he’s wobbly on his legs and bleeding from cuts over his eyes. Now he has three minutes to pull out his best stuff and deliver the punch of his life. The Dark One has taken a few shots, but nothing that has really damaged him. He’s still dancing on his toes and talking trash. His head shots can fracture a skull, and his body punches can break ribs. And now he’s ready to unveil his surprises. You didn’t think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn’t ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That’s your only chance.

 

 

So, whose assessment of WOT should we believe?

 

 

 

 

 

i prefer to believe what i have read so far. rand is doing pretty well. Yes he's turning to a complete unfeeling bastard and got his hand blown off but there is no order to kill. he can chill till tarmon gaiden the forces of light having nothing to worry about since their saviour will end up in TG one way or the other. the do can have his civil wars and mischief and chaos but in the end his prison will  be resealed and he will look back to the day he gave that retarded order to moridin and everyone else and hopefully curses himself

 

Rand doesn't know this though, so he's running around trying to get ready for the Last Battle. As far as he knows, all the Forsaken are out trying to kill him, which I think they have been since Winter's Heart. Anyways, if you think that the DO has no plan regarding the no kill order then you should think again. For one reason or another that we haven't been let onto yet, the DO needs (or at least used to need) Rand to make it to the last battle

[sheikh chilli]

i prefer to believe what i have read so far. rand is doing pretty well. Yes he's turning to a complete unfeeling bastard and got his hand blown off but there is no order to kill. he can chill till tarmon gaiden the forces of light having nothing to worry about since their saviour will end up in TG one way or the other. the do can have his civil wars and mischief and chaos but in the end his prison will  be resealed and he will look back to the day he gave that retarded order to moridin and everyone else and hopefully curses himself.

 

 

 

 

Soooo, you prefer your own interpretation of what you have read.. instead of what Robert Jordan himself has analyzed about his own story that he has written.

 

well robert jordan has said one thing but i am reading something else. the do is too busy trying to convert rand for the third time. rand has nothing to worry about since there is no order to kill.

[sheikh chilli]

but the no kill order. The moment that was issued was the moment the light has won and the DO lost

 

Do you know that you are disagreeing with the author himself, of the WOT series, Robert Jordan?

Allow me to provide an interesting quote for you:

 

On his blog, Robert Jordan described Rand and his situation like this:

 

The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don’t even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

 

Think of it this way. The bell is about to ring for the fifteenth round, and the Light is so far behind on points the only way to win is a knockout. Our boy is game, but he’s wobbly on his legs and bleeding from cuts over his eyes. Now he has three minutes to pull out his best stuff and deliver the punch of his life. The Dark One has taken a few shots, but nothing that has really damaged him. He’s still dancing on his toes and talking trash. His head shots can fracture a skull, and his body punches can break ribs. And now he’s ready to unveil his surprises. You didn’t think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn’t ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That’s your only chance.

 

 

So, whose assessment of WOT should we believe?

 

 

 

 

 

i prefer to believe what i have read so far. rand is doing pretty well. Yes he's turning to a complete unfeeling bastard and got his hand blown off but there is no order to kill. he can chill till tarmon gaiden the forces of light having nothing to worry about since their saviour will end up in TG one way or the other. the do can have his civil wars and mischief and chaos but in the end his prison will  be resealed and he will look back to the day he gave that retarded order to moridin and everyone else and hopefully curses himself

 

Rand doesn't know this though, so he's running around trying to get ready for the Last Battle. As far as he knows, all the Forsaken are out trying to kill him, which I think they have been since Winter's Heart. Anyways, if you think that the DO has no plan regarding the no kill order then you should think again. For one reason or another that we haven't been let onto yet, the DO needs (or at least used to need) Rand to make it to the last battle

 

what a fool the forsaken are. didnt they see how ishy failed to convert rand? it's too late for them. and why would the DO need rand to live to make to the last battle. if rand dies tg will still happen. the weakening seals will ensure that happens anyways.

[Toy and Minion]

shaitan's order of not killing rand will proce to be his undoing.

 

Yep.  Arrogance tends to be the villains downfall.

[Thor]

i don't think he really cares if he loses anyways, as long as he exists, there is a chance he will win.

 

darkness can exist without light, but light cannot exist without darkness as long as there is any object in front of the light.

[Luckers]

Has it occurred to anyone here that the reiteration of the no-kill order was not the Dark One's doing, but Moridin's. The link between Moridin and Rand has already grown stronger than the Aes Sedai bond, and look what happens to warders when their Aes Sedai dies. Moridin has to be worried about that.

 

The initial no-kill order made sense--getting Rand to turn would have solved so many problems for the shadow, and ensured eventual victory even if Tarmon Gai'don went bad (which IS possible, even with the Dragon turningm or dead. Chance plays its part in the Wheel, and despite the prophecies the Wheel weaves on).

 

But time made it clear that wasn't going to happen, and the reiteration of the no-kill order makes no sense from the Shadow's perspective--but it does from Moridin's.

[OsaroLJ]

Has it occurred to anyone here that the reiteration of the no-kill order was not the Dark One's doing, but Moridin's. The link between Moridin and Rand has already grown stronger than the Aes Sedai bond, and look what happens to warders when their Aes Sedai dies. Moridin has to be worried about that.

 

The initial no-kill order made sense--getting Rand to turn would have solved so many problems for the shadow, and ensured eventual victory even if Tarmon Gai'don went bad (which IS possible, even with the Dragon turningm or dead. Chance plays its part in the Wheel, and despite the prophecies the Wheel weaves on).

 

But time made it clear that wasn't going to happen, and the reiteration of the no-kill order makes no sense from the Shadow's perspective--but it does from Moridin's.

 

Very possible. But the original no-kill order came AFTER Rand had rejected Moridin three times, right? Well, if the DO would Let the Lord of Chaos live AFTER he had rejected him 3x, I don't see what has happened since LOC to change the DO's mind. However, I think the clue lies in Moridin's monologue regarding the Fisher.

 

I still think the Wheel would weave a way for Rand to get back if he is killed (hence the 'live you must die'). Merely killing him only begins the part of prophecy that we all know will be fulfilled. Killing Rand at this point doesn't help the Shadow. By turning him or disrupting his activities, the Shadow has a chance.

[OptimusPrime]

Well, if the DO would Let the Lord of Chaos live AFTER he had rejected him 3x, I don't see what has happened since LOC to change the DO's mind

 

Rand isnt the Lord of Chaos.

[Hybrid]

well robert jordan has said one thing but i am reading something else. the do is too busy trying to convert rand for the third time. rand has nothing to worry about since there is no order to kill.

 

The Light is pretty far from winning at this point.  Rand has been mostly successful, but half the world is in complete chaos.  Darkfriends are everywhere - I wouldn't be surprised if there were some real shockers revealed in the last book.  There's a very good chance that a war the magnitude of the Trolloc Wars is coming again, and we saw how well the world avoided that the first time.  And this time, the Trollocs may be able to use the Waygates.  Plus, the forces of Light are still divided.  Rand's coalition is filled with people who hate him, the Borderlanders have weakened their northern frontier and are doing Light knows what, and the Seanchan still haven't allied with Rand and will likely attack the White Tower itself.  Not to mention there are still Darkfriends, and a lot of them, in the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man.

[Monitor]

I will answer this from a different view. The DO or the Forsaken are simply unable to kill Rand at this point. He is the Ta'veren. Ta'veren are not simply created to provide strange unlikely events or make Mat a lucky gamler. They are arguably there to correct errors and breakdowns in Pattern. Of which the DO is likely to main source. As such I think they are also protected by the Pattern until they fulfill their purpose. This protection is extremely strong. One example: Perrin suddenly has a feeling that Rand would need to be saved in the future and he and many of the men of the Two Rivers promptly marched off into the unknown based on this whim. Similarly, I would argue that if Ishy or one the Forsaken tried to blast Rand out of existence Rand would stumble thus avoiding the blast or an bypassing bird would block Rand or some similar unlikely event would happen.

 

As such the DO cannot probably kill Rand before the Seals are broken. So what to do? Well, if the DO cannot make a major change in Pattern by killing Rand, maybe converting him would be a lesser change which could work? Well, this was tried numerous times with catastrophic results. Back to drawing board. The Pattern will not allow Rand to be killed or converted. But maybe avoiding Rand directly and instead creating chaos around him would work? Worked excellently. But then Rand decided to cleanse Saidin. The DO panicked and ordered a frontal assault. Again another fiasco. Lesson learned. Back to creating chaos and avoiding facing Rand directly until the DO is free.

[OptimusPrime]

Im with Luckers on this one. After all, I see the big plot as a massive scale version of the Sha'rah game like Moridin seems to, and as Moridin states, there are more than one way to win the game. Moridin has control over Rand, or so he thinks; at the very least, Rands move are close enough to what Moridin wants him to do to make Moridin think he has Rand where he wants.

 

Obviously, the Cleansing isnt one of those moves Moridin wanted, but other than that... yeah. I'd say the second no-kill order came from Moridin, not the Dark One.

[Kadere]

Has it occurred to anyone here that the reiteration of the no-kill order was not the Dark One's doing, but Moridin's. The link between Moridin and Rand has already grown stronger than the Aes Sedai bond, and look what happens to warders when their Aes Sedai dies. Moridin has to be worried about that.

 

The initial no-kill order made sense--getting Rand to turn would have solved so many problems for the shadow, and ensured eventual victory even if Tarmon Gai'don went bad (which IS possible, even with the Dragon turningm or dead. Chance plays its part in the Wheel, and despite the prophecies the Wheel weaves on).

 

But time made it clear that wasn't going to happen, and the reiteration of the no-kill order makes no sense from the Shadow's perspective--but it does from Moridin's.

 

What? The no kill order goes into effect in LoC, correct? We're all agreed on that? That's what the DO says to Demandred, "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" and then he goes and tells the rest of the Forsaken, except for Sammael. Right? We agree that's when the no kill order first came about? Ok.

 

Ishamael wasn't reborn as Moridin at that point. In fact Osan'gar and Aran'gar weren't even reborn at that point, so I find it impossible to believe that Moridin gave the no kill order over the DO, when the DO gave it when Moridin didn't exist.

 

Then Moridin, when he's reborn, continues to follow the no kill order, and even enforces it so that Rand can go kill Sammael for attempting to break it. This is where they're balefire meets and they get the connection. The no kill order continues as the balefire connection grows worse.

 

Finally in WH, when the connection is worse then it had been in the past to the point that LTT can tell someone else is there, Moridin revokes the no kill order and DEMANDS Rand's death.

 

Am I missing something? Cause that's what happens and it seems incredible to suddenly say none of that is right and suddenly Moridin wants Rand to live as long as possible cause he's afraid of their connection. Cause if he wants him alive he shouldn't have ordered his death, and then says in KoD that he'll kill Rand himself. No, I'm pretty sure that link isn't keeping him from killing Rand at all.

[Hybrid]

Finally in WH, when the connection is worse then it had been in the past to the point that LTT can tell someone else is there, Moridin revokes the no kill order and DEMANDS Rand's death.

 

A minor point, but I thought Moridin's order to Kisman was "Kill him if you must, but bring me his possessions." (Paraphrasing, of course)

[Kadere]

Finally in WH, when the connection is worse then it had been in the past to the point that LTT can tell someone else is there, Moridin revokes the no kill order and DEMANDS Rand's death.

 

A minor point, but I thought Moridin's order to Kisman was "Kill him if you must, but bring me his possessions." (Paraphrasing, of course)

 

That's true. He doesn't so much demand it, but he's fine with it. Cause doesn't he also tell Demandred they can kill him? So why's he fine with Rand dying if he's supposedly scared of what would happen if Rand died?

[sheikh chilli]

it's official. moridin is suffering from a bi polar disorder. dont kill rand. no kill him. sorry don't kill him.......

 

by the time he settles on to one decision, the final battle would have past him by

[OptimusPrime]

Its called self preservation sheikh. Moridin changes his mind and issues the second order not to kill him because he might be harmed by Rands death, because of the connection.

[Kadere]

Its called self preservation sheikh. Moridin changes his mind and issues the second order not to kill him because he might be harmed by Rands death, because of the connection.

 

When does this happen? The order not to kill Rand lasts from LoC until about WH, or probably a little before in PoD cause that's when Osan'gar attacks. In WH, Moridin says they can kill Rand if it comes to it and seems pretty laza-faire about Rand's death. So that means they're allowed to kill him for WH and CoT. In KoD Moridin orders that they kill Mat and Perrin and leave Rand to him, and we know that at least Aran'gar thinks "You're going to be disappointed about Rand" cause she plans to kill him herself. Where is the second order not to kill him about Rand's bond? Are you talking about the KoD order which is MONTHS after the bond? And Moridin, as far as we can tell, still plans on killing Rand at the end of KoD, so I don't see the bond keeping him from doing anything.