If Rand hearing voices makes him insane is Mat crazy too?

[Braus]

We might aswell go back to Mat then, who rather die than killing a women who is about to kill him.

Except Mat did kill women. He ordered Renna's death, and after that swore not to kill any more women. Since then, the only occasion he has had cause to is outside the hell in Maderin, when he gives the Darkfriend woman a chance to run, and she uses it to attack. He didn't get much of a chnce to kill her once she made her move.

 

Really? mm didnt remember that he only gave her a chance to run, not stopped trying to kill her.

Its really not as said that interesting anyway imo. Since regardless of what kind of person Mat is, i cant agree that Rands weakness to feel guilt for the women who fights for him is insane. As said, in my opinion the fact that he really does feel guilty makes him more human, and just because hes guilty doesnt mean he is insane. Humans doesnt follow logics like that, we arent robots.

[Hybrid]

 

Personal responsibility is fine.  It is the degree to which Rand takes it which makes him insane.  Feeling personally responsible for the hundreds to thousands of deaths caused by your actions is one thing.  Feeling personally responsible for each and every one of your deaths - going so far as to list them all in your head - is another. Obsessive compulsive disorder - you may have heard of it, seeing as it is one of the most common mental disorders around.   Like dholm said, Rand is not completely flying-off-the-handle-and murdering-everyone-around-him not-in-touch-with-reality insane, not like LTT was.  But he is definitely insane.

 

Making it a point to remember those that died for him is a sign of character and a exceptional memory.

No he does not.  He only remembers the women.  It is not a sign of character, it is a sign of obsession.  There is a difference between understanding and mourning the price that must be paid and obsessing over it.  Rand doesn't just feel guilty or sad, he makes sure he memorizes every name on that list.  It's the mental equivalent of self-flagellation.  And as the Maidens themselves point out, his believing that he is solely to blame for the deaths diminishes their own choices.  They were the ones who chose to fight for him, not him.  So no, not a sign of character at all.

 

As per Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, it is a sign of someone having mental health issues, not a sign of insanity.

I know.  That's why I called it a mental health disorder, not a form of insanity.  It is merely one of the many problems with Rand's mind.

[Knightscape]

 

 

 

No he does not.  He only remembers the women.  It is not a sign of character, it is a sign of obsession.  There is a difference between understanding and mourning the price that must be paid and obsessing over it.  Rand doesn't just feel guilty or sad, he makes sure he memorizes every name on that list.  It's the mental equivalent of self-flagellation.  And as the Maidens themselves point out, his believing that he is solely to blame for the deaths diminishes their own choices.  They were the ones who chose to fight for him, not him.  So no, not a sign of character at all.

 

 

Rand's choice to remember women who have died for him partially seems to be his way of dealing with grief.  Others may deal with grief in their own way.  Ways that are as different as the people going through grief are different.  If Rand does not deal with grief at least in some way then the chance that he really does become insane would increase.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

 

 

 

No he does not.  He only remembers the women.  It is not a sign of character, it is a sign of obsession.  There is a difference between understanding and mourning the price that must be paid and obsessing over it.  Rand doesn't just feel guilty or sad, he makes sure he memorizes every name on that list.  It's the mental equivalent of self-flagellation.  And as the Maidens themselves point out, his believing that he is solely to blame for the deaths diminishes their own choices.  They were the ones who chose to fight for him, not him.  So no, not a sign of character at all.

 

 

Rand's choice to remember women who have died for him partially seems to be his way of dealing with grief.  Others may deal with grief in their own way.  Ways that are as different as the people going through grief are different.  If Rand does not deal with grief at least in some way then the chance that he really does become insane would increase.

 

Thats the problem though. He doesn't deal with the grief. He holds it inside him, and he uses it to "forge his soul in fire" as he puts it. He doesn't ever get over them. It's like if my cat died, and I sat in my room crying for days and days, but instead of feeling better and coming outside, I would still sit there and cry and cry, and repeat the cat's name. Except obviously, this is more serious because its people.

[TrollocFodder]

If by hearing voices you mean thinking I hear other people inside my mind speaking, then no, I do not hear voices. If you mean an inner monologue or talking to myself in my mind, then yes.

 

shield him before he balefires us all

[Rhalurn]

Rhalurn, small correction. Mat doesn't have his past lives in his head, those are the memories of the men that went through either the doorway in Tear or the Tower of Ghenjei. The Finns just stuffed him full of the memories they were done with, so now he is full of memories of visitors of the Finns, which just happen to have a whole assload of battles.

 

Ah, i'd thought as much when re-reading the books. When Tuan asked about seeing Hawkings face and he has the flashback about laughing in his face at death. Just before that he thinks about the other times he has seen Hawking, so i gathered that either the pattern chucked out his soul like three times and he died at like 20 years old each time or that they weren't mat's soul but others.

 

For the guy who was saying how could i say Rand isn't insane, then you got to remember a little something about people who are insane. They aren't themselves anymore, they can't just be mad for a month and then when the forsaken come along suck it up and be sane. Remember when we read about Lews Therin and ishamael (i think) and ishy has to do some dark stuff to give lews therin a moment of sanity. Thats him being insane, remember when the sun palace is attacked and the young ashaman protecting Min goes insane. He can't just be crazy for a bit and when its important pull it together, he is insane. He has the mind of a 5 year old and wants to build a safe place for himself and Min out of the bricks in the building surrounding them.

 

Rand has voices in his head, which if they didn't have the explanation of who he is (Lews therin, both the dragon so some reason there for him being in his head) and has Ishy in his head due to the clash of balefires, along with 4 bonded women (3 who can channel). Yes if i said to the doctor i heard voices id be insane, but he has a reason doesnt he. Also he has the guilt of suddenly being responsible for nations of people. He etches the name of the girls who has died because of him being thrust into this responsibility.

 

Lews Therin is insane, young ashaman was insane, Rand is messed up, but is holding on to his sanity. If he was insane he would be going villiage to villiage bonding every cow and chicken he came across. We know he isn't insane because he's only bonded 3 cows so far :OP

[dholm]

There are degrees of insanity. The fact that Rand hasn't totally lost it doesn't mean he isn't insane.

[Paladin]

Quote from: Padraic_Seebrr on August 28, 2009, 04:24:58 PM

Rhalurn, small correction. Mat doesn't have his past lives in his head, those are the memories of the men that went through either the doorway in Tear or the Tower of Ghenjei. The Finns just stuffed him full of the memories they were done with, so now he is full of memories of visitors of the Finns, which just happen to have a whole assload of battles.

 

 

Ah, i'd thought as much when re-reading the books. When Tuan asked about seeing Hawkings face and he has the flashback about laughing in his face at death. Just before that he thinks about the other times he has seen Hawking, so i gathered that either the pattern chucked out his soul like three times and he died at like 20 years old each time or that they weren't mat's soul but others.

 

For some reason folks on this forum believe Mat left the Two Rivers with a wide brimmed hat, a Dagger and an ashandarei.

 

I have stated in my first two posts that I was referring to Mat BEFORE he visited the Finns.

 

Mat shows that there are memories and experiences coming across from his old lives.

 

After Matt gets his fancy black spear he often comments on "other men's memories" telling him what he needs to do. He has at least some idea of which memories are his and which are a result of the Finns.

 

Recalling the old tongue, using ancient war cries and commanding ancient battles while he is being healed is not from the finns.

 

It happens long before he meets them and as far as I can see is his old lives influencing his current one. I might even go as far as to say that Mats aversion to Aes Sedai is also a refelection of a previous life.(" I am no Aes Sedai meat").

 

In Mat it is called the Old Blood.

In Rand its Called Insane.

I dont completely agree with that

[dholm]

The Old Blood has nothing to do with Rand and Lews Therin. It is not even remotely similar.

 

The manifestation of the Old Blood is NOT a "previous life" -- it is the life of one of his ancestors. It has nothing to do with the soul, but with bloodlines.

 

Rand is a single soul with two personalities. Mat is a single soul with one personality with the memories of other men in his head, and the Old Blood sometimes coursing through him.

[OptimusPrime]

Exactly. When Moiraine says the old blood runs strong in the Two Rivers she was also referring to Egwenes strength in the Power.

 

That must mean Egwene is insane!

[Braus]

Not exactly.

 

Besides whats paladin is refering to is that Mat got more stuff in his head than he got from the finns. If you recall hawking calls Mat "sons of battles" in the great hunt at falme.

 

There are degrees of insanity. The fact that Rand hasn't totally lost it doesn't mean he isn't insane.

you sure you're sane?:p

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Not exactly.

 

Besides whats paladin is refering to is that Mat got more stuff in his head than he got from the finns. If you recall hawking calls Mat "sons of battles" in the great hunt at falme.

 

There are degrees of insanity. The fact that Rand hasn't totally lost it doesn't mean he isn't insane.

you sure you're sane?:p

 

Just finished re-reading TGH, and you are mistaken. Hawkwing calls Mat "hornsounder". The Finn's in the doorway in Tear say "GTFO Son of Battle" (paraphrased)

[OptimusPrime]

Besides whats paladin is refering to is that Mat got more stuff in his head than he got from the finns.

 

Yes, we can see that from his posts. But Mat isnt insane because there is a difference between Rand and Mats situation. Probably about as big a difference as there can be. Rand is gaining new Lews Therin traits as time pass, and Lews Therin is there. The people Mat has memories from arent there, we would have been shown that by now if they were. None of the other things like the dice cause him any mental problems at all. Rand is gaining memories on top of what he already has; Mat was given memories to fill in gaps and he wont get any more unless he goes to the Finns. Or unless his past life's mind becomes active while his still is.

 

 

There are degrees of insanity. The fact that Rand hasn't totally lost it doesn't mean he isn't insane.

you sure you're sane?:p

 

Its there in the books. The fact that Moridin hasnt totally lost it doesnt mean he isnt insane either. In fact I'd say Moridins mental situation is better than Rands at the moment. And I bet a lot of people will agree that Moridin is both insane and more mentally stable than Rand seems to be.

[Nae Bliss]

I'm new to the sight but I've been a fan for a  while I think that Mat is just... confused? no that's not what I was gonna say he's well here's an example if you have a bunch of pieces of different cloth and you sew them together you get a blanket. That's what happened to Mat's mind... other minds not blanket pieces... anyway Rand is a little crazy but I have a theory that Lews therin has a physical body in one of the alternate dimensions and he hears Rand and wonders if he's real... but either way LTT is a total nuttjob  ;D

[Knightscape]

It's like if my cat died, and I sat in my room crying for days and days, but instead of feeling better and coming outside, I would still sit there and cry and cry, and repeat the cat's name. Except obviously, this is more serious because its people.

 

...but he doesn't just sit in his room and cry, he carries on with his life.  An extremely complicated life.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

It's like if my cat died, and I sat in my room crying for days and days, but instead of feeling better and coming outside, I would still sit there and cry and cry, and repeat the cat's name. Except obviously, this is more serious because its people.

 

...but he doesn't just sit in his room and cry, he carries on with his life.  An extremely complicated life.

 

But that list still affects almost everything he does. (By that I mean he wouldn't be such a hardass if it wasn't for him forging his soul in the fire of his guilt >.>)

[OptimusPrime]

It's like if my cat died, and I sat in my room crying for days and days, but instead of feeling better and coming outside, I would still sit there and cry and cry, and repeat the cat's name. Except obviously, this is more serious because its people.

 

...but he doesn't just sit in his room and cry, he carries on with his life.  An extremely complicated life.

 

But he constantly keeps mentally punishing himself for those peoples deaths. Those people whose names he memorized.

[Braus]

Besides whats paladin is refering to is that Mat got more stuff in his head than he got from the finns.

 

Yes, we can see that from his posts. But Mat isnt insane because there is a difference between Rand and Mats situation. Probably about as big a difference as there can be. Rand is gaining new Lews Therin traits as time pass, and Lews Therin is there. The people Mat has memories from arent there, we would have been shown that by now if they were. None of the other things like the dice cause him any mental problems at all. Rand is gaining memories on top of what he already has; Mat was given memories to fill in gaps and he wont get any more unless he goes to the Finns. Or unless his past life's mind becomes active while his still is.

 

 

There are degrees of insanity. The fact that Rand hasn't totally lost it doesn't mean he isn't insane.

you sure you're sane?:p

 

Its there in the books. The fact that Moridin hasnt totally lost it doesnt mean he isnt insane either. In fact I'd say Moridins mental situation is better than Rands at the moment. And I bet a lot of people will agree that Moridin is both insane and more mentally stable than Rand seems to be.

 

Well im not argueing that Mat are insane, neither have I, which should be obvious that i havent, nor am i argueing that Rand is not insane. Im just saying that you cant say he is insane, i cant agree after having reread the books a number of times that he is, not from the information we got. (again not saying there might not be stuff we havent seen that have happened that would give proof to Rand being insane).

 

Im not gonna repeat my points. Instead im just gonna say that Moridin, or Ishamael got nothing to do with Rand really. Its not comparable. We got no idea what kind of man Moridin is, got no idea what kind of connection he got with the dark one, if its true that he fought the dragon a thousand times, or if its a lie. If he has been around that long, or not. If he are being joysticked by teh dark one, if he got connections like shadar haran seems to have with the dark one, etc etc. All we know is that forsaken have called him insane. Forsaken who might be small fish in the whole picture, if its true that Ishamael either been around for that long, or have been possessed/recreated by the dark one/by something who ahve been around that long. We dont really know Moridins motives, if he truelly wanted to be naeblis, or if he just got it(since the dark one might as said have been connected to him for along time, maybe before, or after the hundred companions.

[OptimusPrime]

Well in that case I'd say you're never going to find out about Rands mental situation. If you ignore both whats in the books, and the blurbs on the back of the books, I dont know how you feel you will ever get an answer. People find a way to disagree with everything in this series.

[Braus]

Why wouldnt I? Just because i dont agree that we can call Rand for certain Insane yet, not as far as ive read and get impressed in the books this far.

I could almost compare that to someone saying that Rand is insane in The Eye of the World, before he have read any other book.

 

Just because i want to be convinced before i would call Rand insane, or Mat, or Bayle Doman for that - doesnt mean i wont come to a conclusion if its obvious in the books that he is insane.

[OptimusPrime]

Why wouldnt I?

 

Because it says it on the back of one the books and you still dont believe it.

[Paladin]

Well in that case I'd say you're never going to find out about Rands mental situation. If you ignore both whats in the books, and the blurbs on the back of the books, I dont know how you feel you will ever get an answer. People find a way to disagree with everything in this series.

 

Optimus,

 

I just think some people are interpreting the given evidence differently than you are.

From your posts it seems that you have a problem with that.  

Fair enough,

 

For myself, I don’t think Rand is insane but that differs on your definition of insanity, again something that is going to differ from person to person despite it having a clear medical definition.

 

Rand’s Voices / memories /channeling weaves in his head, my mind at least, is a case of old lives influencing the current. And I compare that to Mat’s experiences in the first 4 books.

This has been held up as solid proof of Rand’s insanity, I disagree.

 

Rand’s paranoia is soundly based in reality seeing as how the DO and the 13 forsaken are actually out to get him and he has been caught of guard on a few occasions.

If he weren’t paranoid he’d be dead. That to me is not a sign of insanity, more like a healthy sense of self preservation.

 

Rand’s out of control temper is another thing that I find to be justified. Considering everything that is going on around him and the selfishness and stupidity being shown by so many.

 

Rand’s unhealthy obsessions over the women who have died in his service is not justified but it is realistic. Considering his upbringing and the fact that leadership was thrust upon him at a young age when he was not ready for it. This is an unhealthy obsession but I don’t think of it as a sign of insanity. More of an outlet for the trauma he has experienced since leaving the Two Rivers. It is something that he needs to get over but not a sign that he is ready to be carted of to the funny farm.

 

Rand is still very much functioning, he is still capable of rational thought and is aware of his actions and their consequences. and through all that has been happening to him he has been actively working toward TG, and trying to find a way to survive it. Those are not the actions of an insane person.

 

RJ wrote quite a few crazy people in his books, the Asha’Man and Padan Fain are some good examples. Rand doesn’t fit.

 

 

ps. The Blurbs on the back of the books and reviews that you place so much stock in are the interpretation's of the proof readers and reviewers. Not the Author. I dont see how that can be held up as concrete proof of anything.

[OptimusPrime]

I dont have a problem with people seeing things differently. I just can believe people still debate over this after so long. It is so OBVIOUS that Im starting to think people have argued their point for that long that they would feel stupid if they finally admitted they were wrong.

 

Rand’s Voices / memories /channeling weaves in his head, my mind at least, is a case of old lives influencing the current

 

And if Rand didnt have the Lews Therin madness, the old life wouldnt be influencing anything. The fact that Rand is vulnerable to the old lifes influence is the insanity that Im talking about. His madness IS that Lews Therin is influencing him. The fact that he is vulnerable to that influence is the madness that you are blind to. You say it yourself, just without acknowledging it for what it is. You will never know Rands mental situation because you just discard everything that proves it. If Brandon were to say Rand is insane, you would say thats his interpretation. If RJ had come out with it, people would find a way to ignore it so their own theories survive.

 

Believe what you want. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, however wrong. Just remember that it was apparantly RJs wife Harriet who wrote the blurbs before discounting them.

[Braus]

We are still debating yes, even if i dont know if we are all debating for the same thing, but one common theme is that we get almost no worthy repsone, or well ive pretty much stopped. Ive said my points, wont repeat them into oblivion.

 

And if the blurb/text you quoted, that says Rand is insane, shows itself to be true in TGS where we get to see a insane Rand, then its imo a misstype for that book/spoiler for coming plot in books to come.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

So first Harriet is wrong, then its a mistype? Next, a past lifes mind will have taken over whoever was typing and changed it all. Does any of this smell like denial?

 

Come on guys, lets brainstorm. I want some even worse excuses.