If Rand hearing voices makes him insane is Mat crazy too?

[Mr Ares]

The blurb that i was referring to has them as being in SG, not close too, or almost at. You referred to them being at SG not near or close.

An irrelevant distinction.

 

As you well know i don't think Rand is insane my point is valid from what i believe.

No, it isn't.

[dholm]

As you well know i don't think Rand is insane my point is valid from what i believe. Trying to belittle it is ridiculous.

 

It doesn't matter. You are comparing apples and oranges. Rand has symptoms of insanity. Mat has NO symptoms of insanity (but has unexplainable symptoms -- just not of insanity). And somehow this makes their situations comparable? It makes no sense.

 

If Mat was saying he could speak the Old Tongue without having studied or even heard it spoken, that would be an indication of insanity. When he starts talking the language, most people would simply assume he's lying about not having studied it -- and if they did believe, they would not be able to explain it, but they would also not think him insane. It is not insanity to be able to do something without training.

 

Rand isn't insane because he can draw well. He is insane because he talks to a dead man in his head, and because he keeps listing all women who have died because of him and thinks of it as being his fault. He is not batshit insane, destroying everything around him -- but he is also not sane.

[OptimusPrime]

How close must one be to be counted as there? They are not standing on the summit, but they are close enough to be counted as there. At the foot of SG, more or less.

The blurb that i was referring to has them as being in SG, not close too, or almost at. You referred to them being at SG not near or close.

No, you might as well not say anything as ridiculous as that. All three have very different "conditions" with very different "symptoms". You might call a paranoid schizophrenic insane, but not someone whose only problem was appendicitis. Appendicitis is not insanity. So saying If Rand is one thing, then you might as well say that Perrin and Mat with their completely different conditions are the same thing makes no sense at all.

As you well know i dont bother writing my own counterarguements anymore and cant even come up with my own way of replying either.

[Braus]

Feeling uncomfortable having women fight and die for you, feeling guilty when they die etc etc.. i wouldnt call that insanity. What exactly is insane about that? Might aswell say that the fact that i like to put butter on the wrong side of a certain bread is insane, and yes thats a bad example.

You can say that eventually the guilt might drive Rand into some kind of apathic/depressed or even insane, person, but its not something that makes him insane. Call it symptoms if you want, there is proberly alot of them, but that doesnt mean he's insane. Im not saying hes not, can hardly judge that from what ive read in the books, im just saying that i wouldnt label him as insane.

 

The fact that he hears another mans voice in his head hardly makes him insane. Maybe in our world, but not the WOT. I mean why would it? whats so special about it, what makes us so sure we can just directly translate it into our worlds terms, we even get to listen in on the conversations and its something more.

I can think of two times when Rand truelly been "insane" but both times he have been affected by the broken Callandor. Except those two times i cant think of a single scene where Rand is insanish. All i see is a man who got litterally the worlds future on his shoulders. Or a man who are facing dangers that noone the latest 3000 years even come close to, again and again. Even if the big duel of the last battle have begun, he still have the dark one and everyone under his influence against him and a deorganized unsure and arrogant white tower, a new black tower(who realized how powerful they actually are, lead by a darkfriend/powerhungry maniac who isnt bound by any oaths) and all sort of nobles who keep playing the house of games.

 

On his side he got a few old childhood friends, who just like him are all new when it comes to leading. One of which is a upset stubborn and narrowminded teen amarlyn.

Except his childhood friends and his new lovers, he go a few new characthers that he thinks he can trust, who we who reads the books absolutely think he can trust. I could proberly compare Ingtar with Bashere, wouldnt be that bigger of an suprise if that happened, not saying it will. But he cant be sure. At the same time that he got stewards all over the place, he got the middlehands and other important nobles as said keeping the house of games alive and trying to either continue to reach for wealth and power, or give opinions.

 

Besides that he pretty much havent had a easy time for years. He got drawn up by his roots, becoming a "devil" in childhood tales, having numerous close death experiences, pretty much loosing or at least having his best friends just become friends/companions/tools. He had a few months to contemplate or accept the fact that he was the dragon reborn(he thought himself that he might be). He learns more and more about himself and his quest that he cant share to anyone. He has to be a power, a leader, in not only one culture but in many various and he has to keep going, not really having time to adapt his plans to those cultures tradition and ways. He dont only for some reason love one, but three women and have to keep going with them all spread out in different dangerous places and situations. He also got to deal with all the hate coming in, hate he got no real option to explain/solve. Aiel who thinks he is a Aes Sedai tool, Aiel who think hes fake, Whitecloaks and similar, Arrogant Aes sedai(no matter how high or low they want to command him), Gawyn and other andoran who thinks he killed morgase etc etc

On top of that he got all sorts of people/characters who is pushing on him. Who are starting to flex their hands and want information from him. Logain forexample, who just after a few months in the black tower become some sort of leader and are almost demanding actions from Rand. A man who let himself be led by dark friends into starting wars, and being a false dragon. A man who hardly seem to be selfcritical in any way or sorry? in a way is Rands guilt for dead women alot more real.

 

 

Rand is just a guy who is pressed from all sides, who gotten hurt again and again and are forced to keep fighting more and more to reach a battle or duel vs some kind of god/halfgod... that in a way he got no idea how to face, or how to win.

 

Imo the way he acts in the books isnt him being insane. Does the fact that he has a voice in his head make him insane? Why should it, hes as said the most powerful taveren, or important person spun out from the wheel for literally ages. The personality change from the boy in two rivers, to the pressed leader of nations is in my opinion justified when thinking about what he is going through and what he is going to have to go through. And the fact that he hears a mans voice in his head, and get his memories is also justified just because he is who he is and because he is a character in WOT.

 

Rand might be insane, but i at least will need more proofs of him being insane, the books this far havent given em at least. And if RJ somewhere stated that Rand already is insane, then he, ofc he did, knew something that i didnt know, or he didnt put enough effort into writing it out in the story. Since in my opinion i wouldnt judge Rand as insane from reading book 1-11. Its questionable, he might aswell be a as said a hard pressed person who are dead serious in continueing carrying his "duty - heavier than a mountain"

 

 

 

About Mat being insane, far from it ofc, he seems like a normal person. But if people use arguements that Rand is insane because of certain elements, then Mat migh aswell be called insane for his newfound language skills/blackouts where he does things he cant remember/and dices spinning around inside his skull.

[Perrin 187]

Rand hears the voice of a deranged lunatic in his head. A lunatic that killed his entire family and all his friends. When this madman talks, half the time what he says makes no sense. He'll laugh about something one second and cry about it the next second.

 

On more than one occasion this madman has influence Rands behavior, and has caused rand to do things out of character. I wouldn't be surprised if Rand kills all the people with him, because of LTT control on his mind.

 

How is Rand not insane? How? Don't use that argument Braus that something like that is different in the WOT then it is in our world. Do you realise the pandoras box you open with that statement. We can't measure how evil the forsaken is because evil in WOT is different then our world.

 

Is it just how RJ wrote Rand as the hero, makes him a sympathic and likable character, thus people don't want to admit something about his pscyhe, like insanity.

 

Based on the review for TGS you guys aren't going to be able to hold this view for long anyway. This is pure speculation but I'm gonna guess the thing Rand does, is hit Min or something like that in a fit of rage. Its just a guess I have no evidence to back it up. 

 

 

[dholm]

Feeling uncomfortable having women fight and die for you, feeling guilty when they die etc etc.. i wouldnt call that insanity. What exactly is insane about that?

How about the fact that he lists each and every single one? They're in the hundreds, y'know.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Feeling uncomfortable having women fight and die for you, feeling guilty when they die etc etc.. i wouldnt call that insanity. What exactly is insane about that?

How about the fact that he lists each and every single one? They're in the hundreds, y'know.

 

So the maniac has a great memory, whats wrong with that? I know if I felt extremely guilty and thought I had killed many many women, I would probably remember most of them too. On a side note, when Rand was running through Shadar Logoth hunting Sammael, and he sees Liah (is that her name?), if she had survived instead of being balefired, do you think she would have made him forget his list? Like what Moiraine is supposedly going to do?

[dholm]

It is not sane to obsess over a list of hundreds of women, even if you do feel guilty about them dying.

[Braus]

You mean its not rational for you?

 

Why isnt it sane to list women who died because of you, indirectly ofc and ofc he shouldnt blame himself for it, but he is raised as he is.

[dholm]

Because it isn't sane. Sane people would accept that there's nothing they can do about it. They might still feel guilty, but they wouldn't obsess over it to the degree that Rand does.

 

For heaven's sake, he puts women that die AROUND him on that list, even if he had nothing to do with it whatsoever.

[Braus]

Rand hears the voice of a deranged lunatic in his head. A lunatic that killed his entire family and all his friends. When this madman talks, half the time what he says makes no sense. He'll laugh about something one second and cry about it the next second.

 

On more than one occasion this madman has influence Rands behavior, and has caused rand to do things out of character. I wouldn't be surprised if Rand kills all the people with him, because of LTT control on his mind.

 

How is Rand not insane? How? Don't use that argument Braus that something like that is different in the WOT then it is in our world. Do you realise the pandoras box you open with that statement. We can't measure how evil the forsaken is because evil in WOT is different then our world.

 

Is it just how RJ wrote Rand as the hero, makes him a sympathic and likable character, thus people don't want to admit something about his pscyhe, like insanity.

 

Based on the review for TGS you guys aren't going to be able to hold this view for long anyway. This is pure speculation but I'm gonna guess the thing Rand does, is hit Min or something like that in a fit of rage. Its just a guess I have no evidence to back it up. 

 

 

 

This isnt about lews therin, im not objecting that lews therin proberly is a complete madman, or at least partly a mad man after Ishamael healed him abit.

 

This mad man has taken control yes, like on the attack on the manor in KOD. That doesnt mean that Rand is insane, he was struggling against it, he even shouted for Logain to take care of the fires since he couldnt get through to lews therin.

Lets compare this to compulsion, or to compare it to something where the person is more "awake" to egwenes dream with Gawyn, or Perrin's bloodlust attack on the whitecloaks in the eye of the world where he looses control/the man in tarabon? who has become a wolf in mind.

Im just saying that its as much apart of the WOT world. And well yes, evil is defined differently in WOT compared to today. Same way the idea of a fair ruling system and laws would be different compared to today. This is the 21th century.

I just dont agree that Rand is mad just because Lews Therin grasped the power there. Rand was there to struggle with him. Besides the whole point with this story is that the Dragon has been Reborn, the champion of light, lews therin telamon isnt some random dude who just happened to drop into Rands mind.

And to get back to the measurement, or the pandora's box, between our world/past and wot. Well ofc you can compare alot, but at the same time alot of people got a rather false way of our past world aswell, they dont quite grasp how it was. And this is just a measurement of what we in our world think is insane, and what in wot would call insane. Its proberly pretty much exactly the same, but there is still new variables involved in the WOT world, some of which ive mentioned, and it makes the difference imo, since we havent really had any real proof that Rand is insane.

 

How RJ wrote Rand, dunno, im just pushing my opinion forward here :) im not after determining if hes insane or not, im just saying i dont agree that he is insane, he might just aswell not be. He has gone through alot, and as said will go through alot more so he has become and in his own opinion has to become even more a certain way. Why? because he thinks its the only way he can protect those he care about, and the only way for him to succeed.

 

The review, or the book got nothing to do with it really. I mean if i get convinced that Rand is insane by some new scene where we see him dancing naked through the street singing country music, thats fine. Im writting walls of texts about my experience this far. And my gut feeling is that he isnt insane, he is just thinking and acting abit cold/logical(in his opinion)

[Braus]

The women on the list point is the weakest by far. I proberly forgot alot of stuff from the books, something that you might be able to enlighten me and convince me(if you wish ofc) that Rand is insane. Totally open for learning new things about wot, thats why im here anyway because i enjoy the books and want to know more.

But the women on the list is in my opinion sane. Certainly not healthy to carry that guilt, but it doesnt make him into a madman.

Besides if you cant be sad about people who die who you got nothing directly to do about, alot of people in this world could be diagnosed the same.

[dholm]

The women on the list point is the weakest by far. I proberly forgot alot of stuff from the books, something that you might be able to enlighten me and convince me(if you wish ofc) that Rand is insane. Totally open for learning new things about wot, thats why im here anyway because i enjoy the books and want to know more.

But the women on the list is in my opinion sane. Certainly not healthy to carry that guilt, but it doesnt make him into a madman.

Besides if you cant be sad about people who die who you got nothing directly to do about, alot of people in this world could be diagnosed the same.

 

There's nothing wrong with being sad about people dying. But that's not what Rand does. Rand takes personal responsibility for any woman who dies around him or because of him. It is not sane.

[OptimusPrime]

The women on the list point is the weakest by far. I proberly forgot alot of stuff from the books, something that you might be able to enlighten me and convince me(if you wish ofc) that Rand is insane. Totally open for learning new things about wot, thats why im here anyway because i enjoy the books and want to know more.

But the women on the list is in my opinion sane. Certainly not healthy to carry that guilt, but it doesnt make him into a madman.

Besides if you cant be sad about people who die who you got nothing directly to do about, alot of people in this world could be diagnosed the same.

 

There's nothing wrong with being sad about people dying. But that's not what Rand does. Rand takes personal responsibility for any woman who dies around him or because of him. It is not sane.

 

Exactly. He tortures himself by memorizing every single one of their names. He is driving himself into an even worse state of mind by doing it.

[Knightscape]

 

There's nothing wrong with being sad about people dying. But that's not what Rand does. Rand takes personal responsibility for any woman who dies around him or because of him. It is not sane.

 

Taking personal responsibility for any individual that dies while in his service makes him insane?  ???  I just can't agree.  Not taking personal responsibility for individuals that come to harm while under his command would be a much worse aspect of his or any leaders character. (imho)

[Padraic_Seebrr]

 

There's nothing wrong with being sad about people dying. But that's not what Rand does. Rand takes personal responsibility for any woman who dies around him or because of him. It is not sane.

 

Taking personal responsibility for any individual that dies while in his service makes him insane?  ???  I just can't agree.  Not taking personal responsibility for individuals that come to harm while under his command would be a much worse aspect of his or any leaders character. (imho)

 

Whats that saying that Faile said in TSR? Care for the living now and mourn the dead later? Was something like that, too lazy to go look it up.

[Hybrid]

 

There's nothing wrong with being sad about people dying. But that's not what Rand does. Rand takes personal responsibility for any woman who dies around him or because of him. It is not sane.

 

Taking personal responsibility for any individual that dies while in his service makes him insane?  ???  I just can't agree.  Not taking personal responsibility for individuals that come to harm while under his command would be a much worse aspect of his or any leaders character. (imho)

Personal responsibility is fine.  It is the degree to which Rand takes it which makes him insane.  Feeling personally responsible for the hundreds to thousands of deaths caused by your actions is one thing.  Feeling personally responsible for each and every one of your deaths - going so far as to list them all in your head - is another.  Obsessive compulsive disorder - you may have heard of it, seeing as it is one of the most common mental disorders around.  Like dholm said, Rand is not completely flying-off-the-handle-and murdering-everyone-around-him not-in-touch-with-reality insane, not like LTT was.  But he is definitely insane.

[Braus]

bah, the women on the list is just unrational, not insane.

[dholm]

The word you're looking for is "irrational". Here's the dictionary.com definition of the word:

 

ir⋅ra⋅tion⋅al  [i-rash-uh-nl]

–adjective

1. without the faculty of reason; deprived of reason.

2. without or deprived of normal mental clarity or sound judgment.

3. not in accordance with reason; utterly illogical: irrational arguments.

4. not endowed with the faculty of reason: irrational animals.

 

Combine this with his behavior (shutting off all emotions), him hearing voices, and the fact that men who channel saidin prior to the Cleansing of the True Source eventually go mad, and what you get is clearly an insane man. One that functions, barely, but insane nonetheless.

[Knightscape]

 

Personal responsibility is fine.  It is the degree to which Rand takes it which makes him insane.  Feeling personally responsible for the hundreds to thousands of deaths caused by your actions is one thing.  Feeling personally responsible for each and every one of your deaths - going so far as to list them all in your head - is another. Obsessive compulsive disorder - you may have heard of it, seeing as it is one of the most common mental disorders around.  Like dholm said, Rand is not completely flying-off-the-handle-and murdering-everyone-around-him not-in-touch-with-reality insane, not like LTT was.  But he is definitely insane.

 

Making it a point to remember those that died for him is a sign of character and a exceptional memory.

 

As per Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, it is a sign of someone having mental health issues, not a sign of insanity.

[OptimusPrime]

 

There's nothing wrong with being sad about people dying. But that's not what Rand does. Rand takes personal responsibility for any woman who dies around him or because of him. It is not sane.

 

Taking personal responsibility for any individual that dies while in his service makes him insane?  ???  I just can't agree.  Not taking personal responsibility for individuals that come to harm while under his command would be a much worse aspect of his or any leaders character. (imho)

 

I will break it down.

 

Maiden of the Spear: I am married to my spear. This is to stop me from having a family while living the life of a warrior because most warriors die in battle and that would cause my family to suffer. I made this choice long before Rand al'Thor turned up.

 

Rand: But if you do die it will be my fault.

 

Maiden of the Spear: But I chose to be a Maiden before I met you.

 

Rand: Yes but Im Ta'veren and if I wasnt here, you wouldnt be either. Its my fault, even though I know better than anyone else that I cant control these thigns, Im going to beat myself up about it.

 

 

Rand taking responsibility for actions he has absolutely no control over, and beating himself up about it so much, is completely irrational. It hints that he isnt sane

[Mr Ares]

Feeling uncomfortable having women fight and die for you, feeling guilty when they die etc etc.. i wouldnt call that insanity. What exactly is insane about that?

Nothing. On the other hand, there is guilt, and then there is pathological behaviour. Mat feels guilt about killing women, but is still capable of doing it, and doesn't obsess over it to the unhealthy extent Rand does. Nor did he find himself faced with a choice between death/slavery (and thus the Shadow's victory) or killing one of the Chosen and choose death. That's the point. He goes beyond simply feeling guilty.

 

The fact that he hears another mans voice in his head hardly makes him insane. Maybe in our world, but not the WOT.

Why not? Considering that we are actually told it does mean that.

[Braus]

 

There's nothing wrong with being sad about people dying. But that's not what Rand does. Rand takes personal responsibility for any woman who dies around him or because of him. It is not sane.

 

Taking personal responsibility for any individual that dies while in his service makes him insane?  ???  I just can't agree.  Not taking personal responsibility for individuals that come to harm while under his command would be a much worse aspect of his or any leaders character. (imho)

 

I will break it down.

 

Maiden of the Spear: I am married to my spear. This is to stop me from having a family while living the life of a warrior because most warriors die in battle and that would cause my family to suffer. I made this choice long before Rand al'Thor turned up.

 

Rand: But if you do die it will be my fault.

 

Maiden of the Spear: But I chose to be a Maiden before I met you.

 

Rand: Yes but Im Ta'veren and if I wasnt here, you wouldnt be either. Its my fault, even though I know better than anyone else that I cant control these thigns, Im going to beat myself up about it.

 

 

Rand taking responsibility for actions he has absolutely no control over, and beating himself up about it so much, is completely irrational. It hints that he isnt sane

 

No it doesnt hint, or make him insane.

The world is illogical and filled with examples like that. Just because you are say a perfectly normal person in everything, doesnt mean you cant have certain personal ways that doesnt directly fit into your person. If that had been true, then we could pretty much say that prejudices are true for everyone. Its the same way with him being reluctant with killing forsaken. He knows exactly what women like Lanfear or Semiragh actually deserve, but all he can do right now is fend them off or try and capture them.

We might aswell go back to Mat then, who rather die than killing a women who is about to kill him.

[Mr Ares]

We might aswell go back to Mat then, who rather die than killing a women who is about to kill him.

Except Mat did kill women. He ordered Renna's death, and after that swore not to kill any more women. Since then, the only occasion he has had cause to is outside the hell in Maderin, when he gives the Darkfriend woman a chance to run, and she uses it to attack. He didn't get much of a chnce to kill her once she made her move.

[Braus]

Feeling uncomfortable having women fight and die for you, feeling guilty when they die etc etc.. i wouldnt call that insanity. What exactly is insane about that?

Nothing. On the other hand, there is guilt, and then there is pathological behaviour. Mat feels guilt about killing women, but is still capable of doing it, and doesn't obsess over it to the unhealthy extent Rand does. Nor did he find himself faced with a choice between death/slavery (and thus the Shadow's victory) or killing one of the Chosen and choose death. That's the point. He goes beyond simply feeling guilty.

 

The fact that he hears another mans voice in his head hardly makes him insane. Maybe in our world, but not the WOT.

Why not? Considering that we are actually told it does mean that.

 

I think most people in this thread agree that Mat is as far as we have read perfectly healthy, at least overall. Though for example me take up examples of Mat because some things are similar to Rands problem. Anyway the fact that Mat have killed women, and that he lately killed one just a few weeks ago(before the incident in that "hell" chapter, where Tuon saved him) is true, and it might mean that Mat value his life more, dont know or are just illogical when it comes to killing women when his life, or mainly his companions life is hanging on it, like when the suldam escaped.

But Mat got the same tendency, as he showed when Tuon has to save him, like Rand in some ways. And anyway Rand havent really been life threaten by women that many times as far as i remember. Its the noble women in the beginning of eye of the world, where Rand is to weak to do anything anyway. In all other situations no women have actually threaten him, that is been able to reach past his defence through the power/maidens, etc. So it might come soon that Rand is going to have to start killing darkfriend women aswell soon.

 

 

The fact that he hears another mans voice in his head hardly makes him insane. Maybe in our world, but not the WOT.[/QOUTE]

Why not? Considering that we are actually told it does mean that.[/QOUTE]

 

By Semiragh, saying something about Graendals telling her, as far as i know. I mean im not a psycholog but there is really no fair judgement on Rand by any of the people in the WOT world. We are the only people who really can judge him, unless we as said get a scene with him dancing naked through the streets of carhien.

Noone completly understands what kind of conversations and problems Rand have had with lews therin(the chars in WOT that is).

As said, i wouldnt doubt anyone not being abit crazy in our world if they truthfully said they was talking to a dead man inside their head. But the whole series, the whole worlds foundation is built on the fact that every 3000 years or so a champion of the light is reborn to fight the shadow and that often marks the ending of ages. Who knows if Ishamael is telling the truth and he truelly have fought for the shadow that many times against the "dragon". But fact is that Lews Therin Telamon did fight him and the rest of the forsaken, "won", got crazy and suicided and then got reborn in a sense in Rand.

Its the same arguement that if a person in our world would suddenly start talking some extinct language perfect, people would just be suprised or whatever someone wrote before. Its not logical in our world, unless he say cheated somehow and learnt the language in some stealthy way. If we can agree that that is possible in our world, then we might aswell say that some people in our world can channel the true power. Or that all people who hears voices in their head actually hears voices from dead real people and get memories.