Issues about the Aelfinn/Eelfinn

[Liam_1993]

First i would like to just check that the only way to get to the world of Aelfinn/Eelfinn is to go through the tower of Ghenjei (of which there is no return) or to go through the Red ter'angreal doorways.  (Please state any other way to  get there)

 

A question that sprang to mind was "How where to Aelfinn/Eelfinn discovered by humans?"

 

The 'Red ter'angreal doorways' had to of been created by a aes sedai because it is a ter'angreal, so they were built after the dicovery of Aelfinn/Eelfinn that leaves the tower of Ghenjei, but you can not return from this  ???  SO either

 

> There is a way to get out Aelfinn/Eelfinn (such as a gateway)

> Or there is another secret way that we do not know about (maybe through a portal stone or that dream place ter'summit)

 

Now i'm really confuesd ???  ???  ??? Any thoughts  :D

[Majsju]

You can leave through the TOG, all of the blokes whose memories now floats around in Mats head did that.

 

As for the origin of TOG, RJ RAFO'd a question about who built it, so there is a chance we might learn more in book 13.

[Luckers]

About the finding of the Finns--my guess is that it happened around the same time as the creation of the portal stones and the finding of Ogier. For whatever reason people were investigating such things in general.

[mb]

How and where the Aelfinn/Eelfinn were discovered by humans?

Probably by a Gateway from a channeler.

 

The no return applies to when accessing it through Telaranrhiod, not through the waking world.  Birgitte's discussion with Perrin tells this.

 

Edit:  Any of the upcoming 3 could reveal the origin of Ghenjei Tower; the knowledge is not limited to the 13th.

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

How and where the Aelfinn/Eelfinn were discovered by humans?

Probably by a Gateway from a channeler.

 

Actually, almost certainly, not from a Gateway. Where do you get that idea? What evidence do we have that a Channeler can make a Gateway to any alternate dimension or parallel universe? Other than Tel'aran'rhiod. Which i'm not sure qualifies as either of those. Not to mention that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn almost certainly have ways to stop something like that from happening even if it were possible. Which, there is also no evidence of. :)

[Phariah]

i always had a theory that the ToG was either the  product of Portal Stone research or something such ::)

[Ashaman Kovan]

i always had a theory that the ToG was either the  product of Portal Stone research or something such ::)

 

Anything to back that theory up?  ;D

[Phariah]

i always had a theory that the ToG was either the  product of Portal Stone research or something such ::)

 

Anything to back that theory up?  ;D

um... er... ya... well they are both pointy obellisk thingies so um ....nah nope none zilch nada  :'(

[Luckers]

i always had a theory that the ToG was either the  product of Portal Stone research or something such ::)

 

Anything to back that theory up?  ;D

um... er... ya... well they are both pointy obellisk thingies so um ....nah nope none zilch nada  :'(

 

Well their creation date around the same time, and they both involve interdimensional travel....

[Phariah]

i always had a theory that the ToG was either the  product of Portal Stone research or something such ::)

 

Anything to back that theory up?  ;D

um... er... ya... well they are both pointy obellisk thingies so um ....nah nope none zilch nada  :'(

 

Well their creation date around the same time, and they both involve interdimensional travel....

ya that's along the lines i was thinkin, if i remember correct the Portal Stones survived a few ages, AS came up w/ the Ways while studying them, maybe ToG was also. they tried to duplicate a portal stone but pierced into the Finn's land?

than later the AS got tired of traveling and made a treaty w/ the Finns and made the ter'angreal so the didn't have to travel to ToG anymore?

[Ashaman Kovan]

i always had a theory that the ToG was either the  product of Portal Stone research or something such ::)

 

Anything to back that theory up?  ;D

um... er... ya... well they are both pointy obellisk thingies so um ....nah nope none zilch nada  :'(

 

Well their creation date around the same time, and they both involve interdimensional travel....

ya that's along the lines i was thinkin, if i remember correct the Portal Stones survived a few ages, AS came up w/ the Ways while studying them, maybe ToG was also. they tried to duplicate a portal stone but pierced into the Finn's land?

than later the AS got tired of traveling and made a treaty w/ the Finns and made the ter'angreal so the didn't have to travel to ToG anymore?

 

Although Traveling, and other things they did with the one power that are, as far as the characters in the books know about, impossible, were pretty commonplace back in the AoL. So I seriously doubt anyone would get "Tired" of Traveling lol. Not to mention the fact that the ToG is in no way an obelisk. ;D

Plus, all the Ways are, are more of an inter-dimensional way of traveling from one point to another in a much quicker way. Doesn't really relate to the EF and AF....Territory, for lack of a better term. But I could be wrong. :)

[Liam_1993]

maybe humans did not find the Aelfinn/Eelfinn,  but the Aelfinn/Eelfinn found them?    ??? maybe the Aelfinn/Eelfinn  created the TOG and the aes sedai not wanting the Aelfinn/Eelfinn to have total control of access created the doorway then the pact was made?    crazy theory i know  :D any thoughts  ???  :-X :D

[Terrick]

I kind of figured that the TOG and the Finns conversely were either CREATED by the Aes Sedai prior to the AOL.  That's the impression I got.

[Majsju]

Problem with that is that there were no Aes Sedai prior to the AOL, since there were no channelers in the 1st Age.

[Terrick]

This may be ignorant of me, or maybe I need to re-read the books, but has that been confirmed? I don't remember reading anything of the sort.

[mb]

How and where the Aelfinn/Eelfinn were discovered by humans?

Probably by a Gateway from a channeler.

Actually, almost certainly, not from a Gateway. Where do you get that idea? What evidence do we have that a Channeler can make a Gateway to any alternate dimension or parallel universe? Other than Tel'aran'rhiod. Which i'm not sure qualifies as either of those. Not to mention that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn almost certainly have ways to stop something like that from happening even if it were possible. Which, there is also no evidence of. :)

Steddings & wards against entering, those I take are the only restrictions for the destination of a Gateway.  From Rand's experience with the Aelfinn, I take the world is not a stedding.  And there is no indication of either race being able to do wards.

 

Also; from description of the Tower of Ghenjei, I take it was made by the One Power.

Since both races seem to stay in their world, a Gateway would be the most probable way.

 

[Majsju]

This may be ignorant of me, or maybe I need to re-read the books, but has that been confirmed? I don't remember reading anything of the sort.

 

Not in the books, but is has been confirmed, yes.

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=183

[Ashaman Kovan]

How and where the Aelfinn/Eelfinn were discovered by humans?

Probably by a Gateway from a channeler.

Actually, almost certainly, not from a Gateway. Where do you get that idea? What evidence do we have that a Channeler can make a Gateway to any alternate dimension or parallel universe? Other than Tel'aran'rhiod. Which i'm not sure qualifies as either of those. Not to mention that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn almost certainly have ways to stop something like that from happening even if it were possible. Which, there is also no evidence of. :)

Steddings & wards against entering, those I take are the only restrictions for the destination of a Gateway.  From Rand's experience with the Aelfinn, I take the world is not a stedding.  And there is no indication of either race being able to do wards.

 

Also; from description of the Tower of Ghenjei, I take it was made by the One Power.

Since both races seem to stay in their world, a Gateway would be the most probable way.

 

 

Stedding, Wards. Powers of entities we aren't familiar with. Other than a  few special cases. Just because Rand was able to Channel inside the doorway once already in their world doesn't mean that their world isn't impregnable from the outside. FOr all we know the ToG is a ter'angreal that negates channeling or something else that would make it a useless tool. If it were as easy as making a gateway there then it would have happened. There would be no need for the little "FIre to blind, music to bind" rigamorale. They are scared of the OP when it's used as a direct thread to them, but only once the channeler passes through the threshhold to their territory. But they seem arrogant and hostile enough to non-channelers and Channelers alike. So I seriously doubt they fear being attacked by Aes Sedai jumping through Gateways in the middle of their place.

[mb]

How and where the Aelfinn/Eelfinn were discovered by humans?

Probably by a Gateway from a channeler.

Actually, almost certainly, not from a Gateway. Where do you get that idea? What evidence do we have that a Channeler can make a Gateway to any alternate dimension or parallel universe? Other than Tel'aran'rhiod. Which i'm not sure qualifies as either of those. Not to mention that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn almost certainly have ways to stop something like that from happening even if it were possible. Which, there is also no evidence of. :)

Steddings & wards against entering, those I take are the only restrictions for the destination of a Gateway.  From Rand's experience with the Aelfinn, I take the world is not a stedding.  And there is no indication of either race being able to do wards.

 

Also; from description of the Tower of Ghenjei, I take it was made by the One Power.

Since both races seem to stay in their world, a Gateway would be the most probable way.

Stedding, Wards. Powers of entities we aren't familiar with. Other than a  few special cases. Just because Rand was able to Channel inside the doorway once already in their world doesn't mean that their world isn't impregnable from the outside. FOr all we know the ToG is a ter'angreal that negates channeling or something else that would make it a useless tool. If it were as easy as making a gateway there then it would have happened. There would be no need for the little "FIre to blind, music to bind" rigamorale. They are scared of the OP when it's used as a direct thread to them, but only once the channeler passes through the threshhold to their territory. But they seem arrogant and hostile enough to non-channelers and Channelers alike. So I seriously doubt they fear being attacked by Aes Sedai jumping through Gateways in the middle of their place.

The rules probably resulted from their first encounter/encounters with channelers.

 

Since the Tower of Ghenjei seems to have been made from the One Power, it was probably made sometime after the discovery of the Aelfinn & Eelfinn.

 

If getting to their world by Gateway is restricted now, that also probably resulted from the two race's first encounter/encounters with channelers.

Yet the rediscovery of doing Gateways is somewhat recent, and no channeler has tested whether or not Gateways could be done to the world.

 

By the way, the phrase is as follows:

"fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind"

 

[Liam_1993]

what would happen if you where in the world of dreams and then went through the red door things would it still work?  ??? 

 

OR if you where in the world of dreams and then just teleported there (i think they imagine themselves at that place or something)  could you go there?  :-X ??? 

[Dunderdan]

Problem with that is that there were no Aes Sedai prior to the AOL, since there were no channelers in the 1st Age.

 

isnt that a too big assumption? Reading your quote, I admit that there were no Aes Sedai in the last age prior to the AOL. But we dont know about ages older than that do we?

 

 

[Aiemond]

Problem with that is that there were no Aes Sedai prior to the AOL, since there were no channelers in the 1st Age.

 

isnt that a too big assumption? Reading your quote, I admit that there were no Aes Sedai in the last age prior to the AOL. But we dont know about ages older than that do we?

 

 

 

No. The books take place in the third age. This means the one before it )the second age) is the AoL and the beginning of it (and the end of the 1st) is marked by people discovering how to use the OP. If there was an age ending war, or if there was a big announcement, or if people learned enough to notice that odd things were happening and people were able to use "magic" or all of the above occurred...well there is no evidence for any explanation :/.

[Dunderdan]

If theres only been three ages ever, there wouldnt be much point calling it the wheel of times. Nor would it be much mystery about claiming - as RJ did - that "there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel" if he's only referring to two defined ages. Id like to suggest that RJs universe is an ever turning wheel of time that has turned many times before, covering many ages, of which we only know three. My perspective is, that the reason its called "the first age" is that its the first known age to the WoT inhabitants who named it.

 

Edit: I found this thread which elaborates it further:

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,40861.0.html

 

[Aiemond]

If theres only been three ages ever, there wouldnt be much point calling it the wheel of times. Nor would it be much mystery about claiming - as RJ did - that "there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel" if he's only referring to two defined ages. Id like to suggest that RJs universe is an ever turning wheel of time that has turned many times before, covering many ages, of which we only know three. My perspective is, that the reason its called "the first age" is that its the first known age to the WoT inhabitants who named it.

 

Edit: I found this thread which elaborates it further:

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,40861.0.html

 

 

I never said there were only three ages. We know this age as the third age because that's what the book says. We know that the AoL would be the second age by this method. And we know by his quote that the end of the first age is when channeling began. We also know that the fourth age is after this one. Now, these may be just names the people making the history gives them, but it does not change the order. The numbers of the ages may not be correct or even meaningful, but we still know that the DR fights in this age, and the one before it had peace, the war of power and wonders of the OP and that the age before that ended with the discovery.

 

So, we know basically what happens in 2 of the 7 ages and have hints about 4 of the 7 ages. The other 3 we have no idea what happens, except that in more than one there is no channeling.

 

I am not sure where you got the idea I only said there were 3 ages.

 

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

How and where the Aelfinn/Eelfinn were discovered by humans?

Probably by a Gateway from a channeler.

Actually, almost certainly, not from a Gateway. Where do you get that idea? What evidence do we have that a Channeler can make a Gateway to any alternate dimension or parallel universe? Other than Tel'aran'rhiod. Which i'm not sure qualifies as either of those. Not to mention that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn almost certainly have ways to stop something like that from happening even if it were possible. Which, there is also no evidence of. :)

Steddings & wards against entering, those I take are the only restrictions for the destination of a Gateway.  From Rand's experience with the Aelfinn, I take the world is not a stedding.  And there is no indication of either race being able to do wards.

 

Also; from description of the Tower of Ghenjei, I take it was made by the One Power.

Since both races seem to stay in their world, a Gateway would be the most probable way.

Stedding, Wards. Powers of entities we aren't familiar with. Other than a  few special cases. Just because Rand was able to Channel inside the doorway once already in their world doesn't mean that their world isn't impregnable from the outside. FOr all we know the ToG is a ter'angreal that negates channeling or something else that would make it a useless tool. If it were as easy as making a gateway there then it would have happened. There would be no need for the little "FIre to blind, music to bind" rigamorale. They are scared of the OP when it's used as a direct thread to them, but only once the channeler passes through the threshhold to their territory. But they seem arrogant and hostile enough to non-channelers and Channelers alike. So I seriously doubt they fear being attacked by Aes Sedai jumping through Gateways in the middle of their place.

The rules probably resulted from their first encounter/encounters with channelers.

 

Since the Tower of Ghenjei seems to have been made from the One Power, it was probably made sometime after the discovery of the Aelfinn & Eelfinn.

 

If getting to their world by Gateway is restricted now, that also probably resulted from the two race's first encounter/encounters with channelers.

Yet the rediscovery of doing Gateways is somewhat recent, and no channeler has tested whether or not Gateways could be done to the world.

 

By the way, the phrase is as follows:

"fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind"

 

 

Your evidence the ToG was made with the OP?

Why would Aes Sedai make up such one sided rules anyways? Besides which, are you talking about the little poem when you say "Rules" or the whole only asking three questions and none of them relating to the shadow and all that? Either way the rules either only benifit the Eelfinn and the Aelfinn so I seriously doubt that any channelers had any part in coming up with them. They may have accepted the Finns terms but the only way I see that happening is if they have a power of their own that even channelers should fear.