Demand Demandred!

[Vo0]

Okay i thought i'd start a topic on Demandred :D cos i think he deserves one tbh lol he's probably my favourite Forsaken along with Mesaana... odd choices no ? :P so who do YOU think he is ? no matter how stupid but i mean have reasons don't just go oh yeah i think its Loial :P lol..

[Demandred Valerius]

SECONDED!

as for whoe he is, i hate to said ive not a clue,

id rather it be a "omfg it was HIM!" thing wen i read it :)

[elmindreda]

loial is an interesting choice what makes you suspect him?

[Vo0]

Very droll.. :roll: :P

[elmindreda]

i would love it if it turned out to be like mat but thats unfortunately not going to happen

[Vo0]

I would of thought that was plainly obvious ;D

 

No i though it would be someone like Taim or someone thats so obvious no-one thinks of it as him.. He might even be Balwer :D Nobody knows.. Although RJ has said that it's not Taim

 

Boo..

[elmindreda]

wow balwer as demandred that would be weird

[Dionysus]

We have a couple of clues from Robert Jordan through blogs and Question of the Weeks and such. Although not very many.

 

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal>

 

Week 5 Question: Did the Dark One or Ishamael, either one, have a say in the placement of any or all of the other Chosen once they were released, or did they all just carve out power bases of their own choosing?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They carved out power bases of their own choosing based on various criteria, one of which I will reveal. (Others are definitely RAFO!) For the most part, Ishamael excepted, they set out to create worldly power for themselves using the methods they favored in the Age of Legends. That is, Moghedien worked from the shadows using subversion, Sammael, Be'lal and Rahvin attempted to seize control of national governments and so on. The theory behind this was that once the Dark One broke free, those with the largest worldly power bases would be rewarded most.

 

There is another quote somewhere in which Robert Jordan says that we have not yet seen Demandred's alter-ego. I can't seem to find it right now though (any help would be appreciated). I believe there is also a quote which says we should be able to figure out his alter-ego, or was this Mesaana?

 

None of the above quotes really provide very much information about who Demandred is, but it does limit quite a few people.

 

The main possibilities in my mind are one of the following:

 

1) With the Whitecloaks

2) With the Prophet

3) With King Roedran in Murandy

4) With the Borderlanders

5) Outside Randland preparing the Dark One's forces.

 

Both the Prophet and the Whitecloaks lost the majority of their power in Knife of Dreams so it is unlikely Demandred was with them and not been "outted" yet protecting his quarry. They may have been Demandreds doing with proxies, but unlikely his main base of power.

 

Murandy isn't very powerful, and unless the land is pivotal for something in the Mesi/Demi/Semi triangle I dont see him being there either. Especially considering the second quote from above, other Forsaken went into places like Illian, Tear, and Caemlyn and Demandred decides to place himself in a small inconsequential nation? Just doesnt seem to fit.

 

The last possibilities are the ones that I am siding with. He is probably with the Borderlanders. They are the most battle ready military force and Demandred was a great general. It is possible he is still in the Blight preparing the armies or out in some far off land gathering channelers (Shara, Land of Madmen, Blight collecting Aiel male channelers)

 

But look at the situation in the world as it actually stands, from the White Tower divided to crop failures caused by a too-long winter and a too-long summer and people fleeing their farms because the Dragon Reborn has broken all bonds, meaning still less food, and that spoiling at a fearsome rate, from chaos in Arad Doman to a large part of the Borderland armies out of position, from the arrival of the Seanchan focusing too many eyes on them instead of the Shadow to the strongest single nation, Andor, riven by civil war in all but name and Tear split by open warfare, from.... Well, take your pick.

 

In the above quote he mentions many areas which the Forsaken have been working in; Mesaana inside the tower, Graendal in Arad Doman, Semirhage with the Seanchan, Rahvin in Andor, Be'lal in Tear along with other influences of the Dark One namely the spoiling of food and the disruption of the weather. In it, he also mentions the Borderlanders. Demandred is the only one left who could be controlling them and it would fit perfectly with his personality.

[Luckers]

A very intelligent summing up Dionysus. I agree with most of it, though there are a few points i would address.

 

Firstly, Murandy is a weak nation only so long as it was fractured. There are several statements throughout the series about how strong it becomes when united in the face of a threat. This actually stands to reason. Like the Aiel the Murandians all have to have standing armies. The constant bickering needs to be backed up by force. This means that with the exception of the Borderlanders, they have the largest and most battle ready force out of all the original Randland nations (perhaps with the exception of a united Andor... though they wouldn't be battle ready)... the problem being that its devided... a hundred to this lord, 200 to this. This is different to Altara, in which peace and protection was assured per-seanchan by its location and political stance.

 

I think it would make a lot of sense to have taken Murandy... especially for Demandred who has shown himself to have a deft understanding of military strategy. You might say he saw the potential in the place. This is not to say that i think thats where he is, but i do think its an extremely viable option.

 

As to with the Borderlanders... i agree that someone is there, i just think its those Thirteen Aes Sedai who tagged along. I suspect that Rand meeting the Borderlands will be the second incident in which he is hurt by female channelers when Perrin needs to be there. Also Sammael implies that Demandred is working somewhere in the south.

 

As for gathering the forces, Aiel male channelers, Land of the Madmen and such... i like this idea... which is possibly unsurprising since i made a post about it about 2 weeks ago. :)

[Dionysus]

The Aiel dreadlords, Shara Ayyad, and Land of the Madmen have been speculated upon for a fair while now. Robert Jordan likes to shoot down the theories by saying that he doesn't plan on going to the lands, but that still doesn't prevent the lands coming to Randland, the exception may be Land of the Madmen, he may have said that we won't hear anything from them, I'll look for the exact quote.

 

I agree with you on Murandy, my roommate feels that Demandred is Roedran, since we only hear about him but we never see him so it isn't shot down by RJ. It is one that I could still see happening, whereas Prophet/Whitecloak theories I cant believe anymore. Even with the army mobilized, they can still probably only field 35-45 thousand soldiers, which isn't too bad but falls far short of the hundreds of thousands of borderlanders in Andor, and the hundreds of thousands still back in the borderlands. Not to mention the borderlands are going to have some of the most intense fighting as the trollocs pour out of the Blight. Demandred is going to be the general of the Dark Ones army, makes sense he cripples his entry into Randland.

 

As for the events to the south involving Demandred, he could very well be using proxies or Sammael could have just been mistaken.

[Luckers]

. Even with the army mobilized, they can still probably only field 35-45 thousand soldiers, which isn't too bad but falls far short of the hundreds of thousands of borderlanders in Andor, and the hundreds of thousands still back in the borderlands. Not to mention the borderlands are going to have some of the most intense fighting as the trollocs pour out of the Blight. Demandred is going to be the general of the Dark Ones army, makes sense he cripples his entry into Randland.

 

You mean the whitecloaks can only field 35,000? They can only field 7,000, thats all thats left in the world. Or did you mean Murandy? In which case what gave you that idea about Murandy's forces?

[Vo0]

What about Ituralde ? The Tarabon General we see annoying the Seanchan in KoD?

[Cybertrolloc]

Ilturade has been a PoV character--didn't seem dark at all.

 

Dionysus' list:

1) With the Whitecloaks

2) With the Prophet

3) With King Roedran in Murandy

4) With the Borderlanders

5) Outside Randland preparing the Dark One's forces.

 

I'd take 5 as a given. I'd put involved with in front of 1 and 2 and attribute them to him outside evidence of another Forsaken. 4 is iffy, I don't think we have much of anything to tie Dem to them, but nothing to say Dem isn't involved there. Add some involvement with the Black Tower, though Moridin has probably taken over that operation.

 

Demandred should be involved in things to the extent Sammael was when he was alive...and Sammael was everywhere with a hand in nearly every Shadow plan from tSR to tCoS.

[Guest Majsju]

I suspect that Rand meeting the Borderlands will be the second incident in which he is hurt by female channelers when Perrin needs to be there.

 

Those two are not necessarily connected. They are mentioned in different chapters, so it appears they are from two completely different viewings.

[Luckers]

Perhaps not, still i think they are connected. The methodology of the viewing, and the first incidence... and the fact that Perrin is incresingly close to where the borderlanders will be, and that i suspect that Bashere and Tenobia will die in the confrontation i mentioned... And also the fact that we are running out of time and space, unless a couple of the incidences predicted happen at the same time RJ won't fit it all in.

[Cybertrolloc]

Twice Perrin has to be there or Rand's a goner and a different viewing had something to do with Rand being hurt by women who can channel, possibly more than once is how it's put. I don't think a connection should be assumed without other cites.

 

What's this have to do with Demandred though? ;)

[Jonn]

I see real possibilites in Demandred being involved in Murandy.

King Roedran is suddenly trying to pull Murandy together and is now involved in several major events.

Roedran was involved with the Rebel Tower as they moved towards Tar Valon. He also was involved with the Band of the Red Hand as they set out to find Mat. It seems now that the Borderland armies are heading straight for Murandy off of the tip that Elayne gave the leaders. Thing is no one has accounted for the action heading towards Murandy. I don't see the hand of any other Forsaken in it.

 

Mesaana in the White Tower,

 

Balthamel was with the Rebels.

 

Graendal in the west in Arad Domon.

 

Semirhage with the Seanchan in Altara.

 

Moridin seems to be the one based in the Borderlands with Cyndane and Moghedien to attend him. We haven't seen Moridin move too much since his encounter with Rand at Shadar Logoth, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Semirhage was limited in that she was pretty much imbedded with the Seanchan in Altara.

 

We know the most about Graendal's operation, but her base is in the west and she's currently having problems with Ituralde, and Rand's impending attack.

 

There isn't much clue as to where Balthamel is headed as Halima. Halima is now recognised by a good many in the rebel camp as one of the Forsaken and a murderer at the least.

 

Mesaana is embroiled in the turmoil within the Tower.

 

The North is covered by Moridin, Cyndane and Moghedien with Mesaana in the Tower.

 

The South used to be Sammael's, but then Semirhage took over, until her capture.

 

The West is being handled by Graendal.

 

That leaves the East and now recently, the South needing a significant presence for the Shadow to count on.

 

Strategically Murandy is perfect. It's right in the center and far enough East to be a cutoff for all traffic from Caemlyn to Far Madding to Tear.

 

It's bordered by Ghealdan, Illian, Altara and Andor.

 

From there Demandred can keep tabs on everywhere from Carihien to Amador.

The fact that Murandy isn't seen as a far reaching power could actually be an advantage. Rand, foolishly, has pretty much ignored the region. Evidence of that was clear when Far Madding threw him in their dungeon.

Murandy is a sleeper and that's why it'd be good for Demandred.

 

I think Demandred may have been behind the Borderlanders moving via the use of Black Ajah Aes Sedai and perhaps by cutting off certain communications between the North and the South. In this way, no major dispatch could get through to Rand. Also, Murandy is close enough to be involved in the Black Tower and Cairhien and Tear. The recent attempts on Rand's life coupled with the growing distress within the Black tower seems a sure bet that a Forsaken close by is calling the shots.

 

The events in Far Madding during Winter's Heart should point to that obviously.

 

I think Demandred's original plan was to stymie attempts of the Borderland royals to reach Rand. Occupy Rand with activity in the South so that Rand further delayed discourse with the Northern royalty. This would draw out the Borderlanders to come south the way they have...I suppose he was hoping for the worst case scenario, that having to cross Andor, they would stir up a conflict and there would be war between the Borderlands and Andor. Unfortunately Elayne Trakand is a bit too clever to allow that to happen even without the support afforded by the Andoran Crown. So now the Borderlands are coming towards Murandy...there are still plays available to a Forsaken who can manipulate things in the region. Roedran could be a key. Roedran's supposed desire is to unite his country militarily behind him. He could use the movements of the borderlanders as Elayne has and solidify his position. Demandred could use that to cause a lot of strife, and frankly a lot of trouble. Murandy could have a case against Andor for allowing the Borderlands to cross into Murandy without brokering a deal that involved their sayso.

 

Yes, Murandy has a lot to offer, if played right.

[Vo0]

Is it at all possible that Roedran IS Demandred ?

 

I know we haven't seen a lot of Roedran physically just heard about his event's and what he's doing.. but we haven't seen him use troops yet apart from asking Shen An Calhar to defend or reinforce Murandy which seems tactical and we know Demandred was/is the Shadow's greatest general..

[Dionysus]

If Demandred is in Murandy I think he has to be Roedran. It would be kind of lame to have him as some advisor or something, this is freaking Demandred and there is no reason he cant be Roedran.

[Luckers]

Whilst it is possible that demandred is Roedran since we havn't ever seen Roedran and according to RJ we've never seen Demandred in his disguise either, i think that perhaps he isn't. It's been mentioned several times that Demandred likes to work through proxies, and i think that he'll be behind the Roedran, not protending to be him.

[Jonn]

Whilst it is possible that demandred is Roedran since we havn't ever seen Roedran and according to RJ we've never seen Demandred in his disguise either, i think that perhaps he isn't. It's been mentioned several times that Demandred likes to work through proxies, and i think that he'll be behind the Roedran, not protending to be him.

 

I agree.

 

Demandred can't be ignorant of what hasn't worked in the past.

Rahvin, Be'lal, Sammael...they all tried to rule as alter-egos. They all fell to Rand because he was able to reason it out to attack them. Demandred wants to be smarter than that. He's not going to put his face on his base of operations. It's risky and it makes you vulnerable.

 

This is another reason why I think Murandy is the best choice. The place seems rather innocuous, despite its central location. There is a leader there in Roedran who has ambitions and can be used as a perfect front, simply by someone promising to help him in those ambitions. Compulsion seems to work a lot better if there is something that can be seen as a gain within the suggestions. Demandred could easily manipulate a figure like Roedran with Compulsion mixed with promises to unite Murandy.

 

While the Borderlands would seem a good choice for a military minded schemer, consider the cons that are inherent. It'd be crowded. Ishamael has a base of power in the region no doubt. He has Cyndane and Moghedien for company. That's a lot going on. Pride won't allow Demandred to have to tread around Ishamael's plans. Also, it'd be hard to crack the confidences of the Borderland rulers being a male chaneller. the region is really careful and paranoid about the Shadow. A myserious man injecting himself in higher affairs would certainly draw suspicion almost immediately. Since Malkier fell, no one takes things for granted in the North. Sure, you can use the Black Ajah, but why relegate an underling to be a go-between? It's best to be a direct contact to power rather than let someone under you @%#$ it up. Also the borderlands are kind of a given for whose side they'll be on. A schemer isn't going to get too much out of a region that is already commited to war with the Shadow. Go to where the grounds are more fertile if you want your seeds to bear fruit.

 

Somehow I can't see how Demandred would be so informed about goings on in the south if he spent all of his time in the Borderlands. From Lord of Chaos on you get the distinct feeling that Demandred finds stuff out rather quickly and has side deals and connections with the rest of the Forsaken. He is best served to be in the loop by staying somewhere where the action is taking place. Notice that everything is happening around Murandy, but not actually crossing into Murandy.

 

That should set off alarm bells to us readers.

 

So, I think it's a very strong possibility that this is where Demandred his.

[Luckers]

I think people underestimate the military might of a united Murandy. As whole they have a battle tested army, and when you concider the fact that every man is in service to one lord or lady, you have quite a large army. This is evidenced in the fact that Murandy united has never been defeated--Altara would be, if attacked, but the thing that keeps it inviolate the the combination of Illian and Amadecia on either side, if either made a move the other would respond.

 

I personally think that Murandy makes a lot of sense for a military genuis to choose... Demandred could see the worth of the place, and acted to bring it under him.

[Jonn]

I think people underestimate the military might of a united Murandy. As whole they have a battle tested army, and when you concider the fact that every man is in service to one lord or lady, you have quite a large army. This is evidenced in the fact that Murandy united has never been defeated--Altara would be, if attacked, but the thing that keeps it inviolate the the combination of Illian and Amadecia on either side, if either made a move the other would respond.

 

I personally think that Murandy makes a lot of sense for a military genuis to choose... Demandred could see the worth of the place, and acted to bring it under him.

 

True, again, Roedran is a key.

 

Anyone know if Roedran has declared for the Dragon or has tried to set up contact with Rand? The details elude me in this matter.

[Rhetrus]

I know it sounds preposterous, but a friend threw this argument at me, and it looked interesting if not insane.

 

When RJ said:

Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim.

 

it's assumed Taim is not Demandred. However, RJ continues to 'mess with us' and it is said that

perhaps the fact that he never

posed as Taim means that he is Taim. This could be supported to a certain degree with the sisters who captured him (and his escape) being planned by either himself or an affiliation (Black Ajah or the like). There is another quote, in LoC i believe (I will check) which seems to suggest that Demandred/Taim was watching over Osan'Gar.

 

However, this theory is slightly flawed, when in WH Demandred does not recognise one of the Asha'man in his PoV.

 

Anyways, first post, do what you will with it :)

[Luckers]

Welcome.

 

Unfortunately Taim was active in the world before Demandred secured his release. This was dismissed in the Taimendred theory because Bashere expresses his doubt about Taim being who he said he was, therefore allowing demandred to have assumed Taim's identity AFTER he was captured by Aes Sedai, and making no problem with Taim, but RJ put paid to that.

 

No, there is no way Taim is Demandred.