Mat's Luck and Channeling

[OptimusPrime]

Mat said he was lucky in Emond's field

 

Before he was Ta'veren. Not wierd lucky, just normal lucky.

[dholm]

You could put it down to the nature of the Shadar Logoth evil, the one that pulled powers out of thin air to fight against the Shadow. It might be that luck is an aspect of its source of power. Or it could be that it was specifically a ta'veren that was tainted by it, the fact that chance changes around a ta'veren becoming chance AND luck. Or some other explanation.

Justifications, and poor ones. You are putting the cart before the horse.

 

But whatever the ins-and-outs of it, whatever the explanation, Mat didnt have wierd luck before he had the dagger, and he had wierd luck after getting the dagger. That luck doesnt strengthen as the story goes on, Mats understanding of that luck does.

Wrong; his luck jumps exponentially after being Healed of the dagger's influence in Tar Valon. This is indisputable.

 

His luck is NOT an original trait of Mats Taveren, just like Rand being a channeler isnt and Perrin being a Wolfbrother isnt. Otherwise, just like all three see each other when they think of each other, all three would have the Dark Ones own luck if Mats luck was down to him being Ta'veren alone. So far as we know-and we are this far-Ta'veren only vary in strength, nothing else.

Really.

 

Explain why both Rand and Perrin influence people on a far more frequent basis than Mat, then. Perrin influences half the Two Rivers in one night and almost convinces Raen to move his Tuatha'an to Emond's Field, despite it being against everything the man believes in. Mat influences Nesta din Reas to accept a "bargain", if it can even be called that, and influences Reanne Corly to send one of the Kin to the Ebou Dar stash. I can think of no other instances where he does anything like that.

 

So if Mat's luck isn't caused by him being ta'veren, where are the effects? Almost anything you can name can be put down to his luck.

 

Mats luck is down to the dagger.

I do not agree. It makes no sense for it to be the dagger.

[Mr Ares]

i read the thread, and mat never said it's the dagger.

He said he got lucky right after he got it.

 

you're the stuff under troll boots.

Water?

 

if you have nothing to compare it with how do you know it was not a pre existing condition

Mat has something to compare it with.

 

Which means the dagger fits a timing issue. However, Mat being ta'veren can fit that as well.

Except the timing of the changes in Mat's luck are not related to his ta'veren. He became ta'veren some time before the luck started, and it changed again while he was still ta'veren.

 

I still think Mat's exceptional luck (tumbling dice and all) could be due to the Horn. Maybe in combination with some other things.

The Horn by itself has the problem of his luck improving before he sounded it.

[Phariah]

ok Mat is lucky , his Taveren increases his luck , taveren affects chance

Perrin : when he finds a good map of Altara in a seachan office in Amadicia( it was misplaced with a bucha Amadician maps .kinda lucky huh ?), 2 arrows miss killing him and 1 defects off a button because he randomly turned ( hmm thats lucky to me)

Rand : in Fal Dara he turns on his horse randomly and arrow misses him and kills some poor sap behind Siuan ( um.. lucky ), he chooses the same symbol on the portal stone that  Mat does flipping his lucky coin , he steps through into dream world and sees the map to Salidar that Siuan created at the wise one and aes sedai ( wow that was a lucky decision )

 

Mat's luck ebbs and flows as does the taveren effect, his luck increases after he is healed from the dagger

 

Dagger: um... kills with corruption , rots/corrupts its user...um thats it

um a link between Mat's luck and dagger ... none except an out of context statement by a scared / nervous youth , his self delusional statement to choose the safest option to appease his fear when a man accuses him of having the Dark Ones Own Luck,he never links the dagger and luck again not even to be like " this dagger cursed luck " or " that luck i gained from the dagger saved me again" or " i hope that luck i gained from the dagger is in i need to win "

 

so lets see Taveren and luck both come in waves , luck and taveren affect chance, sorry but dagger fiction still falls short  ;)

 

[Mr Ares]

ok Mat is lucky , his Taveren increases his luck , taveren affects chance

But Mat's luck increased when he got the dagger, not when he became ta'veren. It increased again when he was Healed, again, not something that had anything to do with ta'veren. Curious that the timing fits so closely with the dagger, and so not all with ta'veren.

Dagger: um... kills with corruption , rots/corrupts its user...um thats it

Well, Fain has a host of abilities, things that he didn't have before SL. What makes you so sure that that is all it does?

um a link between Mat's luck and dagger ...

How about times he links his luck and ta'veren, times he considers them the same. That would be useful.

his self delusional statement to choose the safest option to appease his fear

To appease your fear, you think of SL as safe? No-one thinks of SL as safe. It almost killed him!

he never links the dagger and luck again

There's no reason why he should. When does he link ta'veren and luck, think something like "the luck his being ta'veren had given him", or similar.

 

so lets see Taveren and luck both come in waves

So do tides. That doesn't make Mat an ocean. What of the differences between them? That Mat's luck is always positive, always in his favour, while ta'veren might affect chance against the ta'veren, or neutrally. That his luck only works on random things, while ta'veren can affect things that would be a matter of concious choice, such as what you say, making it far more wide reaching in its applications.

luck and taveren affect chance

So odes the dice ter'angreal. But we know that is not responsible. Other things affect chance as well, so the fact that Mat's luck and ta'veren do does not make the two of them the same.

dagger fact

Corrected for you.

[Durinax]

Quote

Dagger: um... kills with corruption , rots/corrupts its user...um thats it

Well, Fain has a host of abilities, things that he didn't have before SL. What makes you so sure that that is all it does?

well it is stated that anything within Shadar Logoth carries the taint that killed it, that being corruption, suspicion, etc. Personnally i think that the only useful thing gained by mat from the dagger is being more persceptive (recall when Moraine finds out he has the dagger)

 

and it is unknown what Fain has before shadar logoth, he could have gained numerous things at shayol ghul, he did gain the ability of speaking convincingly from his merger with Mordeth. And he also could have somehow gained something from his episode with macha chin

 

you cannot link mats luck with a token from shadar logoth, the only evidence that the dagger effects chance is that it stiffles luck due to the change from Fal Dara to Tar Valon

[Blaine]

Uh dagger supporters, your whole theory rests on timing. That he had the dagger and is now lucky and he got lucky during that time and after. You guys seem to be forgetting that the series was set in that time and so of course the dagger period will coincide with all the stuff going on at that time which his luck could be attributed to. Here is why the dagger theory is wrong:

 

1.He was just becoming a ta'veren during the time he had the ring. Or the increase in luck can be any other number of things such as his importance for tarmon gaidon, possibly being a hero of the horn reborn etc.

 

2.You have not even been able to come close to giving any explanation of why his luck would grow stronger after losing the dagger. That pokes a huge whole in your entire theory. If it was caused by the dagger there is no reason why it would get stronger after the dagger is gone. And you can no longer cling to the timing thing since i have just shown that is idea is not solid at all.

 

Add these to all the reasons people posted earlier like how it is against the nature of shadar logoth, it causes rotting of flesh and isnt related to luck etc and you can concur that Mat's luck couldn't have been and was not caused by the Shadr Logoth dagger

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Uh dagger supporters, your whole theory rests on timing. That he had the dagger and is now lucky and he got lucky during that time and after. You guys seem to be forgetting that the series was set in that time and so of course the dagger period will coincide with all the stuff going on at that time which his luck could be attributed to.

 

That is a real, genuine counterarguement? First people are saying "theres a timing issue with your theory" and then theyre saying "the fact that there isnt a timing issue doesnt mean you're right." Maybe Rand and Moridin arent connected because of the balefire incedent, but because of something else that happened in that scene.

 

1.He was just becoming a ta'veren during the time he had the ring. Or the increase in luck can be any other number of things such as his importance for tarmon gaidon, possibly being a hero of the horn reborn etc

 

Or the dagger. You forgot the dagger.

 

2.You have not even been able to come close to giving any explanation of why his luck would grow stronger after losing the dagger. That pokes a huge whole in your entire theory. If it was caused by the dagger there is no reason why it would get stronger after the dagger is gone. And you can no longer cling to the timing thing since i have just shown that is idea is not solid at all.

 

Just because people cant figure out how something works, it doesnt mean thats not how it is. I didnt write the books, I just read them. I still dont understand how Shadar Logoth pulled powers out of thin air by "becoming as dark as the Shadow to fight the Shadow" because surely, doing bad stuff, no matter how much, aint guna give me any powers. Yet, thats how Shadar Logoth is. Are you going to question that, just because we on here cant figure out the exact inner workings of it? I dont fully understand how the dagger made Mat lucky, but it did.

 

If you explain to me how it is that Shadar Logoth got powers-in more detail than "the city turned on itself" and all the crap Moiraine says that doesnt really make much sense-then maybe I will consider how the dagger might not have done it. But deep down I know the dagger IS what made Mat lucky so I dont really need to hold my breath

[Durinax]

I have to reread again to try to explain it all out.

 

But explain to me when Mat has no luck when gambling in the bordlerlands prehealing, and then has alot of luck after being healed from the dagger, which proves the dagger has a luck stiffling effect

[OptimusPrime]

Can you provide a quote for that scene?

[Alghar Khan]

If Mat was wierd-lucky he would have noticed way before the story starts. That is, unless that luck was linked to him being Ta'veren, in which case he wouldnt have noticed it until between leaving Emonds Field and being Healed.

When does it become "weird lucky"? He had noticed that he was luckier than average in EF. And Hawkwing was most definately "weird lucky", wherever the line goes for that to have been the case. Mat wasn't born ta'veren.

 

It was the dagger.

It could be the dagger. It could also be some thing or some things other than the dagger.

[OptimusPrime]

 

It was the dagger.

It could be the dagger. It could also be some thing or some things other than the dagger.

 

There might be other things in the book that can cause this but in this case it was the dagger. Mat hasnt been wierd-lucky all the time he was Ta'veren, or we would have noticed it earlier than we did.

 

P.S. You quoted from a post I modified, just letting you know I did that before I realised you quoted.

[Durinax]

"it is better than when I am losing" ch1 TGH

I suppose I was wrong, but he did not have the extreme luck that he has later, or else one of the characters or people he was dicing with would have commented on it

[OptimusPrime]

So whats the verdict now? Do you believe its the dagger?

[Mr Ares]

and it is unknown what Fain has before shadar logoth, he could have gained numerous things at shayol ghul, he did gain the ability of speaking convincingly from his merger with Mordeth. And he also could have somehow gained something from his episode with macha chin

So, gaining powers from SL is a no-no, but gaining powers from Machin Shin is fine?

 

you cannot link mats luck with a token from shadar logoth, the only evidence that the dagger effects chance is that it stiffles luck due to the change from Fal Dara to Tar Valon

...Mat gets lucky after getting the dagger. Fal Dara to Tar Valon, he's lucky, more so than he was when the quest began. Less so than he would be after his Healing.

 

Uh dagger supporters, your whole theory rests on timing. That he had the dagger and is now lucky and he got lucky during that time and after.

That he got lucky right after he picked it up, not right after he became ta'veren, and then became luckier after he got Healed from it is a very important part of the theory, yes. The timing coincides with that and only that. So it is not unreasonable.

 

1.He was just becoming a ta'veren during the time he had the ring.

He was ta'veren alreay, and specifically notes that it was after he got the dagger that he became lucky, while he was ta'veren since before the Two Rivers.

 

2.You have not even been able to come close to giving any explanation of why his luck would grow stronger after losing the dagger.

We have admitted that precise details of how and why the dagger caused him to get lucky have not been shared with us. Only that it was the dagger. But that does not blow a hole in the theory in the slightest. The best you can manage is, essentially, "we don't know Shadar Logoth can do that." Fine, but we also don't know that it can't, we know Fain has a bunch of weird powers that began manifesting after his visit there, and we know Mat's luck manifested after his visit there. Which means it is a not unreasonable bit of speculation, all things considered.

[McCBass]

It seems to me that people are being a bit ridiculous with doubting the fact that the dagger is the reason of Mat's luck.  I understand that there are a few holes (like why he got super lucky immediately after his connection from the dagger was severed), but there are really no better arguments.  Ta'veren: Yes, okay he is Ta'veren.  The pattern tends to arrange for him to get things he needs (being in Ebou Dar for Tuon, finding Talmanes and the Band in KOD) but his luck (not bending the pattern) goes beyond that.  When he notices his luck is almost superhuman, he realizes it stems from the time he was connected to the dagger.  Not the Horn, not Ta'veren. 

 

For the naysayers (yeah, I said naysayers) who think that Fain isn't lucky...Seriously?  He got away from Rand (the strongest Ta'veren possibly ever, meaning he shapes the pattern around him) not once, but TWICE (once in Cairhien when he was with Toram Riatin, and a second time in Far Madding). 

 

Besides, doesn't it make sense for something from SL to give it's "host" some advantage in order to infect as many people as possible?  Especially since while they are infected, they tend to be a bit socially awkward (i.e. Mat being super paranoid in Caemlyn).

 

Like I said, the only problem I have with this theory is that his connection with the dagger was severed and he still was insanely lucky.

[Durinax]

Quote from: Durinax on August 03, 2009, 08:54:36 AM

and it is unknown what Fain has before shadar logoth, he could have gained numerous things at shayol ghul, he did gain the ability of speaking convincingly from his merger with Mordeth. And he also could have somehow gained something from his episode with macha chin

So, gaining powers from SL is a no-no, but gaining powers from Machin Shin is fine?

if fain gained his powers from his first encounter (cant remember if there was a second) with SL (when he had not touched the dagger) than it must have been from him encountering Mordeth.

 

For the naysayers (yeah, I said naysayers) who think that Fain isn't lucky...Seriously?  He got away from Rand (the strongest Ta'veren possibly ever, meaning he shapes the pattern around him) not once, but TWICE (once in Cairhien when he was with Toram Riatin, and a second time in Far Madding). 

 

Fain didnt have to escape Rand, Rand never hunted him on either occassion. In Caihein it was Rand's being taveren that allowed Fain to stab him. Far Madding they never encountered each other and Rand didnt know if he was there

 

Quote

you cannot link mats luck with a token from shadar logoth, the only evidence that the dagger effects chance is that it stiffles luck due to the change from Fal Dara to Tar Valon

...Mat gets lucky after getting the dagger. Fal Dara to Tar Valon, he's lucky, more so than he was when the quest began. Less so than he would be after his Healing.

I would like to ask for a quote/situation that proves mat has less luck before Fal Dara. I know this would be hard but I do not htink his luck changed from the dagger. And I think we cannot figure out how much luck he had before Fal Dara because we have no episodes of gambling before then, thus we cannot say his luck changed at all in Fal Dara

[McCBass]

 

Fain didnt have to escape Rand, Rand never hunted him on either occassion. In Caihein it was Rand's being taveren that allowed Fain to stab him. Far Madding they never encountered each other and Rand didnt know if he was there

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that Rand knew Fain was in Far Madding.  Not the whole time, certainly, but (and I don't have the book with me) when Rand and Lan jump down that trap door, Rand's wound that the dagger gave him was throbbing or some such.  Maybe I'm wrong.  It's been a while since I read that one.  On a re-read right now, but only on LOC.

 

I think that this type of luck (avoiding death by Rand twice, plus the hundred thousand gold crown bounty) is very reminiscent of Mat's luck in that it helps out the individual, and (potentially) not any one around him.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Fain didnt have to escape Rand, Rand never hunted him on either occassion. In Caihein it was Rand's being taveren that allowed Fain to stab him. Far Madding they never encountered each other and Rand didnt know if he was there

 

How is Rand being Ta'veren the reason Fain could stab him?

 

I think that this type of luck (avoiding death by Rand twice, plus the hundred thousand gold crown bounty) is very reminiscent of Mat's luck in that it helps out the individual, and (potentially) not any one around him.

 

I personally think Fain is supposed to do something necessary for the Lights victory, and that if anything is causing Fain to survive other than his own instincts its the Pattern.

[Durinax]

Insert Quote

Quote

Fain didnt have to escape Rand, Rand never hunted him on either occassion. In Caihein it was Rand's being taveren that allowed Fain to stab him. Far Madding they never encountered each other and Rand didnt know if he was there

 

How is Rand being Ta'veren the reason Fain could stab him?

 

Rand's being taveren pulled the 'bubble of evil' to him causing the fog allowing Fain to get close enough to slice and disappear before anyone knew what was happening

 

Quote

I think that this type of luck (avoiding death by Rand twice, plus the hundred thousand gold crown bounty) is very reminiscent of Mat's luck in that it helps out the individual, and (potentially) not any one around him.

 

I personally think Fain is supposed to do something necessary for the Lights victory, and that if anything is causing Fain to survive other than his own instincts its the Pattern.

 

Agreed, I think it has to do with something reminescent with rand's wounds reacting destructively to each other

[Mr Ares]

I would like to ask for a quote/situation that proves mat has less luck before Fal Dara.

How about the one that said he got lucky right after he got the dagger?

[Durinax]

Quote from: Durinax on August 04, 2009, 09:26:10 AM

I would like to ask for a quote/situation that proves mat has less luck before Fal Dara.

How about the one that said he got lucky right after he got the dagger?

Thats like me saying I got lucky after buying a rabbits foot keychain or whatever, it is not actual proof, it is just Mat trying to justify why he is luck all of a sudden, but as said before he became Ta'veren around the same time he got the dagger

[Mr Ares]

Thats like me saying I got lucky after buying a rabbits foot keychain or whatever, it is not actual proof, it is just Mat trying to justify why he is luck all of a sudden, but as said before he became Ta'veren around the same time he got the dagger

It is not a justification. He just says that his luck didn't start after he became ta'veren, but after Shadar Logoth.

[Hybrid]

I would like to ask for a quote/situation that proves mat has less luck before Fal Dara.

Where's the quote/situation that proves that Mat got lucky after becoming ta'veren? 

[dholm]

Thats like me saying I got lucky after buying a rabbits foot keychain or whatever, it is not actual proof, it is just Mat trying to justify why he is luck all of a sudden, but as said before he became Ta'veren around the same time he got the dagger

It is not a justification. He just says that his luck didn't start after he became ta'veren, but after Shadar Logoth.

It is a single quote and we have no evidence that Mat is correct. For one thing, if his luck was only slightly stronger, or if it simply grew steadily stronger over time, he might not have noticed at all prior to coming to Fal Dara and gambling there. Secondly, he has giant holes in his memory, which makes his testimony completely suspect.

 

For all we know, Mat's luck started at zero, then rose steadily until it hit, say, 3 in Fal Dara where he notices it for the first time. It continues growing slowly, without him noticing it because he doesn't dice, until he and Hurin dice half the way from Falme to Tar Valon. Let's say it's 7 or 8 then. He then falls into a coma, more or less, and doesn't wake up till after he's Healed. His luck is now at 10, as strong as it will ever be. (The numbers are, of course, completely arbitrary, simply used to illustrate my point.)