Mat's Luck and Channeling

[Durinax]

mat assuming it was the dagger that gave him luck is not proof, it is merely a conclusion which easily could be wrong, look at history it is full of the same type of ill-drawn conclusions, which are rarely right

[Thor]

so having a wall fall on you in ebou dar is good luck also?

 

and don't give me the nonsense that it made him stay to meet tuon.  there could have been other ways to make him stay (eg all tranport options destroyed, or one of the wonder girls captured).

 

bottomline is, it's not the dagger.  the dagger may have triggered it, just like elyas triggered perrin's mutation, and lanfear triggered rand's channeling, but the core of it is him being ta'veren.

[Hybrid]

Look, the bottom line is actually this.

 

Mat's opinion is that his luck is tied to the dagger.  That doesn't mean he's right.  There are some points against it, such as his luck improving when his tie to the dagger is broken.  I'll grant you that.  However, he can link the luck with two definite events concerning the dagger.  No one has linked his increase in luck with anything else.  And Mat became ta'veren well before his luck started.

 

But at the same time, there is absolutely zero evidence that it is tied to him being ta'veren:

"A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny." (TEotW,Glossary)

Mat's luck has nothing to do with destiny or any surrounding life-threads.  It has to do with himself only, and it only affects chance.  Mat's ta'veren effect is completely different than his luck, as seen in ACOS, Ch. 39, when he gets the Sea Folk to agree to follow Nynaeve and Elayne.

 

elyas triggered perrin's mutation

Wrong.  Perrin was already going to become a wolfbrother.  Elyas guided him through the change and allowed him to come to grips with it without losing his mind like Noam.

 

lanfear triggered rand's channeling

Wrong.  Rand was born a sparker and began channeling well before Lanfear was even in the game.

[dholm]

I can state just as categorically that Mat got luckier over time' date=' and it is just as supported in the text as your version.[/quote']No, it isn't. It is not backed up by Mat's povs, for one thing.

Which is not proof. Mat's conclusions aren't any more valid than anyone else's. It's not factual evidence.

 

Prove that it is irrevocably linked to the dagger, and I would concede you have a point.

So I have to prove my point in order for it to be valid, but you just have to raise the possibility of yours existing, even when supported by less evidence, and I'm supposed to accept it? Provide an RJ statement saying that it was ta'veren, and absolutely not the dagger and I'll concede you have a point. After all, if you can set impossible standards...

You have to prove your point because it lacks any backing whatsoever. There's no evidence that the dagger influences chance except Mat's opinion -- and Mat's opinion isn't any better than yours or mine. We know that ta'veren has a very clear effect on chance, however -- this is backed up by factual evidence; i.e. we can actually consult the books and see the truth of it for ourselves.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, I think Isam mentions Fain being lucky. That's a piece of evidence in your favor, though far from conclusive.

 

His memories seem fine on this issue.

Oh, really? Allow me to quote the relevant section in full:

He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories from Emond’s Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed. His mother had always seemed to know what he was up to, and Nynaeve able to see through whatever defenses he put up. But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky. The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth. He remembered playing at dice back home, with a sharp-eyed, skinny man who worked for a merchant come down from Baerlon to buy tabac. He remembered the strapping his father had given him, too, on learning Mat owed the man a silver mark and four pence.

He can remember always being lucky... except he wasn't. So yeah... His memories are "fine".

I really don't understand your point here. He remembers that he was always lucky, and that he got luckier after taking the dagger. That's what it says, quite clearly, something that doesn't not support your theory, but mine. His memories are clear on the issue. Being lucky doesn't mean you'll always win, and if you were that lucky you couldn't have improved luck. So all this shows is that he was lucky, but he didn't always win. What is the issue? And you are using stuff he does remember to prove his memory is unreliable? This is stuff he does remember, which harms your point about his memories. This wasn't lost in those holes. I'm really not seeing what you're getting at.

He can remember always being lucky, he says -- then he contradicts himself in the next sentence by thinking that "somehow" he wasn't lucky before leaving the Two Rivers.

 

We never see Mat as lucky prior to him gambling in Fal Dara.

Doesn't mean it didn't happen when we didn't see. In fact, Mat is of the opinion that he got luckier after the dagger, but not after leaving the TR. Quite specific.

Mat lost a lot of memories. He is not a reliable witness.

 

And... again... how can the luck come from the dagger when it becomes stronger after he is severed from it? Please, explain this.

How many times do you need to be told we don't know that yet? We do know it was the dagger.

How convenient.

[Thor]

 

elyas triggered perrin's mutation

Wrong.  Perrin was already going to become a wolfbrother.  Elyas guided him through the change and allowed him to come to grips with it without losing his mind like Noam.

 

lanfear triggered rand's channeling

Wrong.  Rand was born a sparker and began channeling well before Lanfear was even in the game.

 

are you retarded and really need everything spellt out for you?  the point was, Mat was born a lucky guy. 

 

if perrin and rand were born with their special abilities, why should mat be any different?

[Hybrid]

are you retarded and really need everything spellt out for you?

I can make up insults for you all day, too, but it won't help prove my point.

 

  the point was, Mat was born a lucky guy. 

I actually don't see your post as having much point at all, as a matter of fact.  You said two incorrect things and also pointed out that having a wall fall on Mat was not particularly lucky.  Somehow this relates to "your point" being that Mat was born a lucky guy?

 

if perrin and rand were born with their special abilities, why should mat be any different?

Really?

Rand's channeling and Perrin's wolfbrotherness have nothing to do with being ta'veren.  Why should Mat be any different?

[Mr. Dragon]

Mat's main talent is his ability to general which is, in part luck, but mostly skill. Rand was not at the start channaling but had the potential, Perrin was not at the start a wolf brother but had the potential, Mat did not start out being a brilliant general but had the potential. How strong a ta'veren they are seems to scale mostly with how far along they are reaching their potencial. When Mat lost some of his memories, it left the room for the memories of the other generals, this was a sustancial step towards becoming a general and so his ta'veren strength increased which caused him to have a greater affect on chance.

[a pale tanned lover]

I can make up insults for you all day, too, but it won't help prove my point.

I nominate that for the most subtle put down of the year.

When Mat lost some of his memories, it left the room for the memories of the other generals, this was a sustancial step towards becoming a general and so his ta'veren strength increased which caused him to have a greater affect on chance.

I don't believe that was the case, they took what they wanted and gave him something back.

 

Can anyone quote times when Mat was really lucky that had nothing to do with being Ta'veren, as in he won loads of money gambling just too blow it having a good time?

 

[Durinax]

But at the same time, there is absolutely zero evidence that it is tied to him being ta'veren:

"A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny." (TEotW,Glossary)

Mat's luck has nothing to do with destiny or any surrounding life-threads.  It has to do with himself only, and it only affects chance.

 

You think that gambling and luck has nothing to do with anyone else's lives? So if I won the lottery no one's life would change except mine?

 

The fact is is that Mat's luck is tied to being Taveren because he is at his most lucky when he needs to be somewhere, the forces between Mat's being Taveren and Rand's reacting together to create Mats extraordinary luck (not always the case). I do not argue that mat would have better than average luck if he was not taveren, just that his great luck is because of the interaction of two taveren, the dagger does not effect his luck other than wrecking his memory and creating preexisting conditions for the future.

[Mr Ares]

LMAO learn english u so funny MR Ares  :D

It wasn't a joke. I don't expect perfect grammar, but deciphering your posts is not an easy task.

but seriously u have not shown any proof of luck after he recieved the dagger so that is  a non factor

Him saying he got lucky after getting the dagger is a non-factor? Well, if you're going to ignore the evidence, there's nothing I can do for you.

 

Which is not proof. Mat's conclusions aren't any more valid than anyone else's. It's not factual evidence.

Another one who wants to ignore the evidence. What use discussing the books at all, if you just want to write your own version?

 

You have to prove your point because it lacks any backing whatsoever.

No, I don't have to prove my point to a higher standard than you. Yours lacks any backing. Find some or go away.

 

He can remember always being lucky, he says -- then he contradicts himself in the next sentence by thinking that "somehow" he wasn't lucky before leaving the Two Rivers.

No, that's not what he says. "He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories from Emond’s Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving." He was lucky, then he got luckier. There is no contradiction there. He just says he got luckier. Not that he wasn't lucky before. He says no such thing.

 

How convenient.

No, actually, it's very inconvenient. We don't know why getting the dagger made Mat luckier, nor why losing it made him luckier still. It might be something inherent to him that the dagger brought out, or something that the dagger did, or something else. But he found the dagger and got luckier. The timing coincides with that, not becoming ta'veren or anything else.

 

As for Mat's "unreliable conclusions", in the section you quoted he doesn't draw any.

 

Mat's main talent is his ability to general which is, in part luck, but mostly skill.

And that comes from his memories, which he got from the Eelfinn, and has nothing to do with his luck, which manifested once he got the dagger.

 

The fact is is that Mat's luck is tied to being Taveren because he is at his most lucky when...

He is affecting something random. Stop ignoring the books. It came after he got the dagger. Not after he became ta'veren, after he got the dagger.

 

Also, the dice are something unique to Mat.

[Hybrid]

But at the same time, there is absolutely zero evidence that it is tied to him being ta'veren:

"A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny." (TEotW,Glossary)

Mat's luck has nothing to do with destiny or any surrounding life-threads.  It has to do with himself only, and it only affects chance.

 

You think that gambling and luck has nothing to do with anyone else's lives?

Sure, his gambling affects other people.  The distinction is that his gambling helps Mat directly, and other people indirectly as a result.  Whereas ta'veren affect other people directly, and themselves indirectly (if at all).

 

For example, Mat's luck lets him win at gambling.  As a result of him winning, other people lose.  Rand's ta'veren effect makes the Sea Folk bargain less effectively.  As a result of them not bargaining well, Rand does not have to give up as much.  Rand's ta'veren effect makes a child survive a two-story fall, or a man choke on his own handkerchief.  Rand is barely affected at all by the actions or even the news of the actions.

 

A slightly shadier example is Perrin.  Perrin's ta'veren effect makes the Two Rivers folk abandon their farms and travel to Emond's Field.  As a result of them listening to his orders, they look to him as a leader.  It is their actions which make him a leader, not his orders making them followers.

[Durinax]

the other people would be also be directly effected if they lose money. An indirect consequence would be people not trusting Mat if he wins too many.

 

If you think of it Mat's luck allows him to be in places he needs to be like when he meets Thom, kills Mellar (think its his name, guy who was sent to kill elayne in Tear), allows him to create the band much easier (since he has the moral boosting infallable luck)

[Hybrid]

the other people would be also be directly effected if they lose money. An indirect consequence would be people not trusting Mat if he wins too many.

Mat's luck affects Mat's actions.  Mat wins because he throws good tosses at dice.  He doesn't win because other people throw bad tosses.  Ta'veren affects other people's actions.  Mat's luck is not the same as being ta'veren.

[a pale tanned lover]

Mat's luck affects Mat's actions.  Mat wins because he throws good tosses at dice.  He doesn't win because other people throw bad tosses.  Ta'veren affects other people's actions.  Mat's luck is not the same as being ta'veren.

 

Like winning a throw of dice that were loaded? Thats not luck that being Ta'veren

[dholm]

Which is not proof. Mat's conclusions aren't any more valid than anyone else's. It's not factual evidence.

Another one who wants to ignore the evidence. What use discussing the books at all, if you just want to write your own version?

I am not ignoring evidence. I am explaining to you why it does not constitute evidence. There's a very real difference.

 

You have to prove your point because it lacks any backing whatsoever.

No, I don't have to prove my point to a higher standard than you. Yours lacks any backing. Find some or go away.

I gave it already. Read what I wrote before you claim I provide no proof. It is factual, verifiable evidence that ta'veren affect chance. You have no actual evidence that the dagger is lucky. Any "evidence" you have provided so far is not actually evidence; it is either circumstantial or unreliable.

 

I would turn your own words around on you, but I don't want to sink to your level.

 

He can remember always being lucky, he says -- then he contradicts himself in the next sentence by thinking that "somehow" he wasn't lucky before leaving the Two Rivers.

No, that's not what he says. "He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories from Emond’s Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving." He was lucky, then he got luckier. There is no contradiction there. He just says he got luckier. Not that he wasn't lucky before. He says no such thing.

He is very clearly surprised that he cannot remember being as lucky as he is now back in the Two Rivers. He feels as if his luck is something he has always had, but realizes it isn't true. That's when he starts wondering whether the dagger did something to him. Perhaps he was lucky, but we don't know that, because his memories are not reliable.

 

How convenient.

No, actually, it's very inconvenient. We don't know why getting the dagger made Mat luckier, nor why losing it made him luckier still. It might be something inherent to him that the dagger brought out, or something that the dagger did, or something else. But he found the dagger and got luckier. The timing coincides with that, not becoming ta'veren or anything else.

Right. You hand-wave it away. As I said, how convenient for you that you don't have to explain it.

 

As for Mat's "unreliable conclusions", in the section you quoted he doesn't draw any.

I was using that quote to show how unreliable he is as a witness.

 

Sure, his gambling affects other people.  The distinction is that his gambling helps Mat directly, and other people indirectly as a result.  Whereas ta'veren affect other people directly, and themselves indirectly (if at all).

We don't know the particulars in how ta'veren affect the Pattern. We simply know they are focal points. We see Mat's effects as a ta'veren -- the ones that are undoubtedly ta'veren, in any case -- most strongly in battles. Remember how he keeps running into them?

 

For example, Mat's luck lets him win at gambling.  As a result of him winning, other people lose.  Rand's ta'veren effect makes the Sea Folk bargain less effectively.  As a result of them not bargaining well, Rand does not have to give up as much.  Rand's ta'veren effect makes a child survive a two-story fall, or a man choke on his own handkerchief.  Rand is barely affected at all by the actions or even the news of the actions.

Which proves nothing, really. We know too little about how a ta'veren works. Rand isn't affected personally most of the time, but he has been -- he pointed out the correct symbol for Rhuidean, for instance, which was almost certainly from being ta'veren; he is much too sure of the answer for it to be anything else.

 

A slightly shadier example is Perrin.  Perrin's ta'veren effect makes the Two Rivers folk abandon their farms and travel to Emond's Field.  As a result of them listening to his orders, they look to him as a leader.  It is their actions which make him a leader, not his orders making them followers.

It's funny how Perrin becoming a leader mirrors Pedron Niall's comment about loosing a rabid lion in the streets, uh?

 

Mat's luck affects Mat's actions.  Mat wins because he throws good tosses at dice.  He doesn't win because other people throw bad tosses.  Ta'veren affects other people's actions.  Mat's luck is not the same as being ta'veren.

You're wrong here. Mat's luck does NOT affect his actions. Not in the slightest. It affects the outcome of the actions he take. He is not the dice; he's simply throwing them. The only way in which his luck does not fit with what we know of ta'veren so far is that it generally stays focused on him, whereas with Rand it spreads in ripples wherever he is. In fact, we have seen the effect Mat has on dice coming from Rand:

Sulin approached him, the shoufa around her shoulders so it uncovered her short white hair, and leaned on the railing. The wiry Maiden was armed for battle, bow and arrows, spears and knife and buckler. She had taken command of his bodyguard tonight. Two dozen more Far Dareis Mai squatted easily on the bridge ten paces away. “An odd night,” she said. “We were gambling, but suddenly everyone was throwing nothing but sixes.”

“I am sorry,” he told her without thinking, and she gave him a peculiar look. She did not know, of course; he had not spread it about. The ripples he gave off as ta’veren spread out in odd, random ways. Even the Aiel would not want to be within ten miles of him, if they knew.

 

Perrin has the same, though -- so far, any ta'veren effects we've seen from him have been focused completely on him.

[Thor]

i really don't care what ficticious 'evidence' you have from the books.

 

perrin was born to be wolfbrother, rand was born to channel, therefore mat was born lucky. 

elyas triggered perrin, lanfear triggered rand, the dagger triggered mat. end of story.

 

it is all because they are ta'veren.

 

[dholm]

Lanfear most certainly did NOT "trigger" Rand. Rand channeled for the first time when they left Emond's Field; months before the first of the Chosen were freed (aside from Ishamael), and long before Lanfear was.

[Durinax]

you cannot just assume that mat was 'just' lucky based on the fact that the other two where.

[Hybrid]

You're wrong here. Mat's luck does NOT affect his actions. Not in the slightest. It affects the outcome of the actions he take. He is not the dice; he's simply throwing them.

Yes, I was wrong there.

 

In fact, we have seen the effect Mat has on dice coming from Rand:

It's not the same effect.  This is my point.  Just because the ta'veren effect affects chance does not mean it is the same as Mat's luck.  The results of those two effects are drastically different.  The ta'veren effect from Rand caused all dice to roll the same way.  Mat's luck only affects Mat's rolls.  Mat's luck always results in a win from Mat.  The ta'veren effect causes both "good" and "bad" things to happen to random people when it affects chance.

 

We know too little about how a ta'veren works

We know enough that the ta'veren effect can cause events that either do not affect the ta'veren himself or affect him poorly (For example, the presence of Rand in the city being tied to all sorts of strange happenstances, such as people dying in ridiculous ways, is not particularly good for his PR).  We also know that Mat's luck is directly tied in to benefiting him, and him alone.

 

Rand and Perrin (and Artur Hawkwing and any other ta'veren) never had the same sort of luck that Mat has.  The ta'veren effect is part of the Pattern, and every ta'veren has the same effect, just to a different magnitude.  Unless Mat is some sort of mutant ta'veren or unless you are going to argue that Mat is a stronger ta'veren than Rand, Mat's luck cannot be attributed to being ta'veren.

 

I could buy Mat being naturally lucky, so to speak, since Mat remembers always being lucky.  I could buy the dagger affecting Mat's luck, since Mat remembers two sudden increases in his luck.  Sure, this evidence can be waved away by the "holes in Mat's memory" card.  But it's the best evidence we've got.  The ta'veren effect is something totally different.

 

i really don't care what ficticious 'evidence' you have from the books.

In other words, if something proves you wrong, it doesn't count as evidence?  Cool.

 

perrin was born to be wolfbrother, rand was born to channel, therefore mat was born lucky. 

elyas triggered perrin, lanfear triggered rand, the dagger triggered mat. end of story.

 

it is all because they are ta'veren.

Thor, at this point, you're just babbling what you want to happen.  Perrin and Rand and Mat may have been born to be what they were, but that is not affected by being ta'veren.  You cannot be born ta'veren:

Q: Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

 

RJ: You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

Likewise, if Mat was "always" lucky, and I am aware that this relies on taking Mat's admittedly faulty memories as evidence (but everyone seems to be doing the same), Mat's luck cannot be attributed to being ta'veren.

[a pale tanned lover]

Quote from: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Q&A_From_Glimmers_Prologue

Q: Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

 

RJ: You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

Likewise, if Mat was "always" lucky, and I am aware that this relies on taking Mat's admittedly faulty memories as evidence (but everyone seems to be doing the same), Mat's luck cannot be attributed to being ta'veren.

 

Luck doesn't always mean good luck. On every occasion that we have seen his luck work it has had an impact on the pattern, to which being Ta'veren is tied to. The luck that he has had is because of him being Ta'veren, like I asked in an earlier post, when has his "luck" not been relevant to the pattern's design

 

[Thor]

if mat's luck is due to the dagger, why don't they just use the dagger to make everybody lucky and go defeat whatever they feel like defeating (including the dark one)?

 

no, don't come up with nonsense like this for which you have no proof.  the dagger doesn't give luck, mat's innate ta'veren ability does.

 

for those of you who says that mat was not lucky before the dagger, please go and read the section where he fights galad and gawyn.  immediately after being cured of the dagger, he talked about how he wanted his luck to hold, this implies that he was always lucky before the dagger as well.

 

those of you arguing about the ficticious mystically luck of the dagger have lost, and it is time you accept that you are wrong gracefully.  but given how retarded you are to even begin to contemplate the ridiculous idea, i guess that is asking too much of you.

[Hybrid]

Luck doesn't always mean good luck.

In Mat's case, it does.

 

if mat's luck is due to the dagger, why don't they just use the dagger to make everybody lucky and go defeat whatever they feel like defeating (including the dark one)?

Given that:

a) We don't know for sure that it is necessarily due to the dagger.

b) One of the problems with the good guys is not communicating with each other.

c) The dagger corrupts people with the evil of Shadar Logoth.

 

You do the math.

 

no, don't come up with nonsense like this for which you have no proof. 

Good job showing your proof, Thor.  I guess we'll just have to take your word on it.  I guess if you keep stating strongly enough that you're right and your opponents are idiots, instead of actually explaining why or how you are right and I am wrong, it makes you right.

 

for those of you who says that mat was not lucky before the dagger, please go and read the section where he fights galad and gawyn.  immediately after being cured of the dagger, he talked about how he wanted his luck to hold, this implies that he was always lucky before the dagger as well.

We've seen that Mat's luck isn't constant; i.e. he doesn't win every toss.  He only won every toss immediately after being Healed.  And it only implies that he was lucky before being Healed.

 

those of you arguing about the ficticious mystically luck of the dagger have lost, and it is time you accept that you are wrong gracefully.  but given how retarded you are to even begin to contemplate the ridiculous idea, i guess that is asking too much of you.

How ironic.

[a pale tanned lover]

Quote from: a pale tanned lover on Today at 05:59:08 AM

Luck doesn't always mean good luck.

In Mat's case, it does.

 

Yes but there are times that he has lost at dice(been unlucky) that has had a bearing on him(been lucky) basically Ta'veren are tied to the pattern tighter then anyone, so having chance dictate his choices wouldn't work unless the pattern decided where the chance was to be.

[dholm]

In fact, we have seen the effect Mat has on dice coming from Rand:

It's not the same effect.  This is my point.  Just because the ta'veren effect affects chance does not mean it is the same as Mat's luck.  The results of those two effects are drastically different.  The ta'veren effect from Rand caused all dice to roll the same way.  Mat's luck only affects Mat's rolls.  Mat's luck always results in a win from Mat.  The ta'veren effect causes both "good" and "bad" things to happen to random people when it affects chance.

How is it not the same effect? Rand's simply isn't focused on him, whereas with Mat it is. Mat's luck comes in waves; just as the ta'veren effect does (though his luck is far more frequent).

 

We know too little about how a ta'veren works

We know enough that the ta'veren effect can cause events that either do not affect the ta'veren himself or affect him poorly (For example, the presence of Rand in the city being tied to all sorts of strange happenstances, such as people dying in ridiculous ways, is not particularly good for his PR).  We also know that Mat's luck is directly tied in to benefiting him, and him alone.

 

Rand and Perrin (and Artur Hawkwing and any other ta'veren) never had the same sort of luck that Mat has.  The ta'veren effect is part of the Pattern, and every ta'veren has the same effect, just to a different magnitude.  Unless Mat is some sort of mutant ta'veren or unless you are going to argue that Mat is a stronger ta'veren than Rand, Mat's luck cannot be attributed to being ta'veren.

 

I could buy Mat being naturally lucky, so to speak, since Mat remembers always being lucky.  I could buy the dagger affecting Mat's luck, since Mat remembers two sudden increases in his luck.  Sure, this evidence can be waved away by the "holes in Mat's memory" card.  But it's the best evidence we've got.  The ta'veren effect is something totally different.

Two points: First, we don't see Perrin and Rand dice. Artur Hawkwing, on the other hand...

“Perhaps,” Moiraine said. “Perhaps not. No one knows anything about ta’veren as strong as Rand.” For just a moment she sounded vexed at not knowing. “Artur Hawkwing was the most strongly ta’veren of whom any writings remain. And Hawkwing was in no way as strong as Rand.”

“It is said,” Lan put in, “that there were times when people in the same room with Hawkwing spoke truth when they meant to lie, made decisions they had not even known they were contemplating. Times when every toss of the dice, every turn of the cards, went his way. But only times.”

"Every toss of the dice, every turn of the cards..." Sounds like Mat's luck to me, if weaker.

 

Secondly, we don't know that every ta'veren affects the Pattern in the same way. If Mat's luck comes from being ta'veren, nothing says the other two ta'veren we know of would have the same luck -- though I will mention that they ARE both lucky. Just not as lucky as Mat.

[Alghar Khan]

I agree that we don't know exactly what is so special about Mat's luck. It could be a special form of ta'veren, or a combination ta'veren/blowing the Horn, or a combination ta'veren/the Dagger, or maybe something else. Mat was lucky before the Horn and the Dagger, so we just don't know.