Mat's Luck and Channeling

[Mr Ares]

So, it seems like Hawkwing wasn't lucky.

We don't know.

And Mat wasn't always lucky, least of all in Emond's Field.

Well, by all accounts he was. Lucky even before he was ta'veren.

 

+Mat's luck increased after Caemlyn after Moraine tried to heal and did something to try and contain the taint

No it didn't.

+we see nothing to say that mat gained luck between SL and Caemlyn

Except his recollection that that is when he got lucky. We also see nothing to contradict it.

 

Plus I do not think you can use Fain as a comparative model

In which case, Mat is our only example. So the question of why Mat should get powers can be answered with why not? After all, we have no examples of people getting the dagger and not gaining powers from it.

 

He picked up the dagger, then a book later he started becoming lucky. doesn't really seem like it was a jump after he picked it up to me.

That is because you are ignoring the evidence. He says that he became lucky right after. Just because we didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. It wouldn't mean it did, of course, except for the fact we are told it did.

 

how is the lack of a theory evidence in favor of the dagger?

Well, if we are only given evidence to support one theory, then the chances are that that one is correct. We have no reason to believe any other theory, and good reason to believe this one.

Him getting MUCH luckier after being healed of the dagger is not really helping the dagger theory.

Yes, it is, as it is one of two changes in his luck, both of which relate to the dagger.

The luck being separate from being ta'veren doesnt mean that it has to be the dagger.

No, that is evidence that favours any theory other than ta'veren. Given that no other theory has any evidence to support it, this is thus the most likely.

The opinion has been raised that the luck could be something that is specific for his character, like rand being able to channel, or perrin being a wolf brother.

Nothing to support that. Given Mat's reluctance to consider anything other than the dagger, his failure to consider this should be taken into consideration. Further, we see two changes in his luck, both relating to the dagger. That's important. Even if it is something innate to him, it is something innate to him that first emerges after he picks up the dagger, and grows to its fullest extent after the dagger. Thus the dagger is still involved, thus even this theory ends up supporting that the dagger is what we should be looking at.

 

so Evidence for the Dagger theory:

You still omit the evidence against: Nothing. There is still no reason to not accept this theory, which is itself a point in its favour. Weight of evidence supports the dagger.

 

RJ wouldn't have put it in as spoken by a main character unless it was relevant, and not just a random rumour. Are you pitting the word of a solid, reliable character to an amnesiac that is really only reasoning out what has happened?

Yes, I'm pitting the rumour voiced by a secondary character backed up by little by way of facts that do nothing to support the ta'veren theory against the thoughts of the person actually involved who considers this to be something other than ta'veren, when every indication given is that it is not ta'veren. We have no reason to accept that it was.

 

Another way to look at this: why did RJ write those thoughts of Mat's? Ta'veren would be easy to accept, in the absence of contrary evidence, but it looks rather like RJ is telling us the answer, in typical RJ fashion - he gives us the pieces, and leaves it to us to fit them together. We are specifically told that the luck didn't start until after EF, while we are also told that is when he became ta'veren. He clearly thinks of the two separately. This is RJ, not feeling the need to spell out the answer for us, but giving it to us anyway. Yet some of you insist on ignoring the facts in favour of whatever crazy wish thinking you prefer.

[Mr. Dragon]

I can think of evidence against the dagger theory, if you assume that it is the taint in the dagger that gives odd powers and that one of these odd powers is increased luck. Why then, if all the taint is removed, does Mat still stay lucky? Without the taint, it is reasonable to assume that the luck would disappear but it doesn't. You can't just say that because the incident could be related to the dagger then it is a point in favour of the dagger because in this case it is clearly AGAINST the dagger theory.

[Lord Monty]

There is no point arguing with people like this ("Dagger Theory" supporters). They are convinced to the point only RJ could sway them and he is gone (may he rest in peace).

[dholm]

RJ left behind notes, y'know.

[Lord Monty]

Indeed he did. So we'll see if your dagger theory is proven (doubtful) in the up coming books.

[Blackhoof]

I agree.

 

RJ wouldn't have put it in as spoken by a main character unless it was relevant, and not just a random rumour. Are you pitting the word of a solid, reliable character to an amnesiac that is really only reasoning out what has happened?

Yes, I'm pitting the rumour voiced by a secondary character backed up by little by way of facts that do nothing to support the ta'veren theory against the thoughts of the person actually involved who considers this to be something other than ta'veren, when every indication given is that it is not ta'veren. We have no reason to accept that it was.

 

Another way to look at this: why did RJ write those thoughts of Mat's? Ta'veren would be easy to accept, in the absence of contrary evidence, but it looks rather like RJ is telling us the answer, in typical RJ fashion - he gives us the pieces, and leaves it to us to fit them together. We are specifically told that the luck didn't start until after EF, while we are also told that is when he became ta'veren. He clearly thinks of the two separately. This is RJ, not feeling the need to spell out the answer for us, but giving it to us anyway. Yet some of you insist on ignoring the facts in favour of whatever crazy wish thinking you prefer.

 

You just gave evidence against yourself; why would RJ include Lan saying that if it wasn't relevant, so why do you insist that it is not relevant, when it clearly is.

 

Plus I do not think you can use Fain as a comparative model

In which case, Mat is our only example. So the question of why Mat should get powers can be answered with why not? After all, we have no examples of people getting the dagger and not gaining powers from it.

 

Yes, well, as you've stated, the dagger gives people powers because it comes from SL, which we all know is such a warm and fuzzy place (sarcasm). Because the SL taint kills people, the same taint as the dagger, (which has been stated to be fatal) We can assume that the dagger kills people, it doesn't give them powers, (just in case you didn't get the memo.) You are ignoring the vital fact; why would the dagger make mat lucky. What mechanism does it possess that givews people luck, and why would you get luckier after it was severed. I can't explain why his luck increased after the separation, but neither can you?

 

So that brings us to:

 

Evidence for the dagger theory:

 

-two events that very well may have been coincedence (or the pattern working its magic) related to the dagger.

-A quote from an amnesiac who is unsure himself over whether or not he was right.

 

Evidence Against:

 

- A quote from a major character that has no memory loss.

- The fact that the dice in mats head only started once he had left the redsone doorway ter'angreal (which has nothing to do with the dagger)

- Mat has himself stated that he is unsure over where the luck comes from.

- The luck INCREASED after he got rid of the dagger, but only got slightly better when he first got it. This could very well be another "coincidence", but why would it increase? can you answer that?

- There is nothing about the dagger that is said to bring luck, just death.

 

 

So, that is.... drum-roll, please, 2 points for the dagger, and 5 against, so that is really -3.... big theory.

[dholm]

Support for one theory does not equate support against a different theory.

 

You also ignore several other clues, such as the fact that Slayer states Fain "has the Dark One's own luck".

 

The dice in his head could have absolutely nothing to do with his luck, by the way, or it could be an "evolved" form of it. We just don't know.

 

It is not a point against the theory that we don't have any evidence saying the dagger brings luck. It is simply a lack of positive proof. A lack of positive proof does not equate to negative proof.

 

So the only point against that is valid is that Mat's luck increased after he got rid of the dagger... and that means pretty much nothing, since we know nothing of the mechanics of it.

 

In conclusion, stop acting like you know everything.

[Blackhoof]

Support for one theory does not equate support against a different theory.

 

What are you talking about? If you have nothing intelligent to say, dont say it.

 

You also ignore several other clues, such as the fact that Slayer states Fain "has the Dark One's own luck".

 

Fain was said to have the dark ones own luck even before he got the dagger.

 

The dice in his head could have absolutely nothing to do with his luck, by the way, or it could be an "evolved" form of it. We just don't know.

 

Actually, they do; every time they happen, something big and/or lucky occurs to mat, and dice generally equate to luck. Besides, if it is an evolved form of it, then it is still a relevant point.

 

So the only point against that is valid is that Mat's luck increased after he got rid of the dagger... and that means pretty much nothing, since we know nothing of the mechanics of it.

 

 

Thats the whole point, why would it increase after he got rid of it? Say you pick up something, and it makes you stronger, but then it gets stolen, and you get WAY more stronger.... thta makes sense (sarcasm). And you are forgetting the quote from Lan, Hawking was lucky and he was ta'veren, mat was lucky, and hes ta'veren, i would have thought you could put two and two together.... oh well.

 

In conclusion, stop acting like you know everything.

 

I am not acting as if i know everything, i am simply stating facts, if you can't deal with that, then this thread is no place for you.

 

[Mr Ares]

I can think of evidence against the dagger theory

No you don't.  Given we don't know the mechanism by which the dagger gave Mat his luck, we cannot say that that is in any way a point against it.

 

There is no point arguing with people like this ("Dagger Theory" supporters). They are convinced to the point only RJ could sway them and he is gone (may he rest in peace).

Yeah, evidence has a way of convincing me. If you had some, you might actually have an argument worth reading.

 

Indeed he did. So we'll see if your dagger theory is proven (doubtful) in the up coming books.

Or if your ta'veren theory gains any evidence to support it.

 

You just gave evidence against yourself;

No. It needn't be relevant to Mat to still be relevant.

 

Yes, well, as you've stated, the dagger gives people powers because it comes from SL, which we all know is such a warm and fuzzy place (sarcasm).

It need not be warm and fuzzy to give powers. Your argument is that it kills people, which I don't deny, but nothing says it cannot do both. Apparently it's an evil, multitasking city.

We can assume that the dagger kills people, it doesn't give them powers,

It doesn't have to be one or the other. It does both, given the evidence we have.

You are ignoring the vital fact

I'm not ignoring it, I've addressed it. It's a magic dagger, and we don't know how it does it, just that it does.

 

- A quote from a major character that has no memory loss.

Which is not evidence against the dagger.

- The fact that the dice in mats head only started once he had left the redsone doorway ter'angreal (which has nothing to do with the dagger)

# TDR,Ch52 � Mat feels the dice as he plans to enter the Stone of Tear. Encyclopaedia-WOT says you don't know what you're talking about. Which is also not evidence against the dagger anyway.

- Mat has himself stated that he is unsure over where the luck comes from.

Which is not evidence against the dagger.

- The luck INCREASED after he got rid of the dagger, but only got slightly better when he first got it.

Which is evidence for, not against, the dagger.

- There is nothing about the dagger that is said to bring luck, just death.

Not true, and not evidence against the dagger. Fain, the only other person in the series similarly corrupted by SL is described as lucky. So there is still no evidence against the dagger. If everything else has points against it, and this not only has nothing against it, but more for it, then which is more likely? The dagger, with the evidence, or whatever crackpot theory some nutter on the internet has dreamed up with nothing to support it? That's right, the dagger.

 

Fain was said to have the dark ones own luck even before he got the dagger.

But after SL. It is SL, after all, which is the source of the dagger's powers.

 

Actually, they do; every time they happen, something big and/or lucky occurs to mat, and dice generally equate to luck. Besides, if it is an evolved form of it, then it is still a relevant point.

Neither of the other ta'veren has dice in his head, nor is there a quote for this in any historical ta'veren, so this is not in any way evidence for ta'veren. Nor for the dagger suppressing luck. Nor for any other theory floating around, save perhaps that it is something innate to Mat. But the dice could be innate to Mat but not the luck, and even both did come from the same place, the dagger acting as a catalyst for Mat's innate luck is still the dagger, and it being something innate to Mat despite never being mentioned as such and despite the coincidental links to the dagger is a bit crackpot with no evidence to support it. Thus, whether or not the dice are taken into consideration, the dagger is still the best we have.

 

Thats the whole point, why would it increase after he got rid of it?

Did you not read what he said? What has been said repeatedly throughout the thread? "we know nothing of the mechanics of it." We don't know the mechanics, so we can't say that is evidence against.

And you are forgetting the quote from Lan, Hawking was lucky and he was ta'veren, mat was lucky, and hes ta'veren, i would have thought you could put two and two together.... oh well.

Looks like you put them together and got 5. After all, Mat was lucky before he was ta'veren. Then his luck increased when he got the dagger. Then his luck increased again when he lost the dagger. Two changes to his luck, neither relating to any known change in his status as a ta'veren. In fact, it is made quite clear that it didn't change until some time after he became ta'veren. So ta'veren answers nothing, and Lan's quote is not evidence of anything relating to this theory.

 

i am simply stating facts

Hilarious.

[Durinax]

a theory that cannot be disproven is not a theory it is just a belief

we also do not know how suppression would work

or even the mechanics of taveren beyond the pattern needs someone to do something

 

 

another thing we cannot compare Fain to Mat, Fain has 2 souls, has gone through macha shin, has gone to the pit of doom, and who knows what else that could have changed his attributes

 

also the dagger suppression is better than the dagger increase theory, since we all know that the SL taint reacts oddly with the OP (believe it was moraine who said something of that effect?) and it makes more sense since it corresponds to moraines healing and the final healing

[OptimusPrime]

a theory that cannot be disproven is not a theory it is just a belief

we also do not know how suppression would work

or even the mechanics of taveren beyond the pattern needs someone to do something

 

 

another thing we cannot compare Fain to Mat, Fain has 2 souls, has gone through macha shin, has gone to the pit of doom, and who knows what else that could have changed his attributes

 

also the dagger suppression is better than the dagger increase theory, since we all know that the SL taint reacts oddly with the OP (believe it was moraine who said something of that effect?) and it makes more sense since it corresponds to moraines healing and the final healing

 

But in order for the suppression theory to be worth looking at at all, there would have to be some indicator that Mats luck was greater before he had the dagger. There is absolutely nothing in the books t give anyone that impression. In order for something to be supressed, it had to be present. You cant supress something until its there. When a woman gets pregnant, we dont say something was stopping her from getting pregnant all the way up until the baby was concieved, do we? What, a lack of sperm means that her pregnancy was supressed? No.

 

Mat couldnt get lucky from the Shadar Logoth taint without an item carrying that taint. Tadaaah! THE DAGGER.

 

Woman + sperm = pregnant woman.

Woman - sperm = woman. Not woman with supressed pregnancy.

 

Mat + dagger = Lucky Mat.

Mat - dagger = Normal Mat. Not Mat with supressed luck.

 

People have Mats maxed out luck level in mind too much. He wasnt born with it. I dont think it was Ta'veren that made him lucky, not indirectly. I think Ta'veren might have been involved in Mat finding the dagger that would make him lucky, the one that forms a connection to him just like it did with Fain. Just like I dont think Perrins Wolfbrother trait was due to Ta'veren, I think the Ta'veren involved there was that Elyas just happened to be there when the ability manifested.

[Durinax]

I think mat has always been defaultly lucky, there was no chance to see him be really lucky, because everyone know he was behind every trick/everything that happened that was bad.

 

But in my mind the suppression makes a lot more sense than a dagger that makes him insanely lucky as soon as his tie to it has been severed. . . but then again the taint could have reacted oddly with saidar being channeled towards it and have created the luck, we will never know

[Alghar Khan]

But in order for the suppression theory to be worth looking at at all, there would have to be some indicator that Mats luck was greater before he had the dagger.

His luck could have been halted or scrambled. His base-line luck could have increased before he was healed. Then when he was healed, he experienced a sudden apparent jump.

 

[OptimusPrime]

What would his luck have been halted or scrambled by prior to getting the supressing dagger? And why is it that Mats luck isnt noticeably worse at any point during all this? Surely with increases in luck being noticed he would have also noticed anything making him unlucky.

 

Lets break it down.

 

First we have some nameless factor scrambling his supernatural luck, to make him not notice that he a) has incredible luck, and b) something is holding that luck back. What could that have been, then? The Dark One cant have done it because he didnt have his eyes on Mat before EotW, where Mats average lucky person luck was a mundane thing. And it wont have been Ishamael for the exact same reason.

 

Then we have that something change when Mat picks up the supposed suppressing dagger. Mats luck doesnt get worse, which would by default mean that the original thing scrambling Mats luck would be more significant than the supposed suppressing daggers suppressing quality.

 

Look at the nature of the Shadar Logoth taint. At the end of the day, when you break it down as far as possible, Mordeth became as dark as the Shadow to fight it, right? So, in other words, he gained those powers because he wanted them. It sounds crappy when you put it like that but thats how it is. I suppose you could look at the luck as an evil version of Ta'veren chance altering. To say someone wants powers to fight the Shadow, wouldnt this kind of luck be perfect? For random events to always go in your favor? Think about it. Random versus regularity is EXACTLY the same as chaos versus order. What better way for Mordeth to combat chaos, than to always benefit from chaotic situations?

 

True, there hasnt been anything from Fain hinting at this, but I find that to be irrelevent. His Shadar Logoth abilities are there to oppose the Shadows, so even if he isnt lucky that could easily mean that he resisted that aspect of the Shadar Logoth taint due to the residue left from being touched by the Dark One. The two wounds in Rands side oppose each other because they are from two sources of evil; Fain has both evils in him, so even if he didnt get the luck from the dagger that doesnt change a thing. We have already seen that the Dark Ones touch gave him some defense against Mordeths powers; thats the reason he is still Fain.

 

Another thing, many people assume that Mats luck would have jumped instantly when he got the dagger. Just take into account that he didnt become instantly suspicious of everyone the second he picked it up. We all saw the daggers effect happen gradually, dont ignore that when opposing this side of the debate. I believe all aspects of the daggers taint will have sunk into Mat gradually. Remember that Mat would have died without the dagger; the fact that he was left so long with it meant its connection to him was strong, its no wonder there was something left behind when it was removed. Its just like the Taint; it affected Rand right up until he Cleansed Saidin, but even with the Taint gone the effects on Rands mind were enough to still be noticeable.

 

It just cant be Ta'veren. Theres no way, it doesnt fit. Mats Ta'veren luck makes assassins step on the only floorboard in the house that creaks. Rands means he just happened to unknowingly select Osan'gar without looking. Randomness wasnt involved in either of those two, not pure randomness. Not the sort of randomness that fits with the luck that makes Mat different from Rand and Perrin.

[Mr Ares]

a theory that cannot be disproven is not a theory it is just a belief

A theory that has already been disproven isnot a theory, it's just a mistaken belief.

we also do not know how suppression would work

Just that it doesn't.

 

also the dagger suppression is better than the dagger increase theory

Given we are told his luck increased, but suppression is never so much as hinted at, no.

it corresponds to moraines healing and the final healing

Not according to the evidence presented. It's not your version of WoT we're discussing, it's RJ's.

 

But in my mind the suppression makes a lot more sense than a dagger

Then your mind is broken. We can fix it. Nurse, get the scalpel.

we will never know

Unless we look at the evidence.

 

His luck could have been halted or scrambled.

No, it couldn't.

[Durinax]

Mr. Ares if I am so wrong about suppression give me a reason why mats luck jumps so much after final severing

 

also I find it interesting that your the one person whose opinions haven't changed during this thread. . . interesting possibilities

[OptimusPrime]

Actually hes one of two. I maintain taht the dagger is the cause. That is, the daggers taint of course. If you're so right about it Durinax, why dont you answer my points against supression?

[Durinax]

well to be honest I cannot recall points that actually state periods that could show luck before Shienar.

 

But then again I am not presenting a polished theory, I am just trying to explain the end result, when mat showed the greatest luck in TV. Although it could be somewhat like you said too, with his luck growing (not saying from what) and still be restricted by the dagger.

[Alghar Khan]

What would his luck have been halted or scrambled by prior to getting the supressing dagger?

Prior to the Dagger? I meant that the Dagger could have halted or scrambled his luck. If Mat is mistaken about so many things that people seem to think, then maybe he could even have experienced suppression?

 

 

[Cillian]

What would his luck have been halted or scrambled by prior to getting the supressing dagger? And why is it that Mats luck isnt noticeably worse at any point during all this? Surely with increases in luck being noticed he would have also noticed anything making him unlucky.

 

Lets break it down.

 

First we have some nameless factor scrambling his supernatural luck, to make him not notice that he a) has incredible luck, and b) something is holding that luck back. What could that have been, then? The Dark One cant have done it because he didnt have his eyes on Mat before EotW, where Mats average lucky person luck was a mundane thing. And it wont have been Ishamael for the exact same reason.

 

Then we have that something change when Mat picks up the supposed suppressing dagger. Mats luck doesnt get worse, which would by default mean that the original thing scrambling Mats luck would be more significant than the supposed suppressing daggers suppressing quality.

 

Look at the nature of the Shadar Logoth taint. At the end of the day, when you break it down as far as possible, Mordeth became as dark as the Shadow to fight it, right? So, in other words, he gained those powers because he wanted them. It sounds crappy when you put it like that but thats how it is. I suppose you could look at the luck as an evil version of Ta'veren chance altering. To say someone wants powers to fight the Shadow, wouldnt this kind of luck be perfect? For random events to always go in your favor? Think about it. Random versus regularity is EXACTLY the same as chaos versus order. What better way for Mordeth to combat chaos, than to always benefit from chaotic situations?

 

True, there hasnt been anything from Fain hinting at this, but I find that to be irrelevent. His Shadar Logoth abilities are there to oppose the Shadows, so even if he isnt lucky that could easily mean that he resisted that aspect of the Shadar Logoth taint due to the residue left from being touched by the Dark One. The two wounds in Rands side oppose each other because they are from two sources of evil; Fain has both evils in him, so even if he didnt get the luck from the dagger that doesnt change a thing. We have already seen that the Dark Ones touch gave him some defense against Mordeths powers; thats the reason he is still Fain.

 

Another thing, many people assume that Mats luck would have jumped instantly when he got the dagger. Just take into account that he didnt become instantly suspicious of everyone the second he picked it up. We all saw the daggers effect happen gradually, dont ignore that when opposing this side of the debate. I believe all aspects of the daggers taint will have sunk into Mat gradually. Remember that Mat would have died without the dagger; the fact that he was left so long with it meant its connection to him was strong, its no wonder there was something left behind when it was removed. Its just like the Taint; it affected Rand right up until he Cleansed Saidin, but even with the Taint gone the effects on Rands mind were enough to still be noticeable.

 

It just cant be Ta'veren. Theres no way, it doesnt fit. Mats Ta'veren luck makes assassins step on the only floorboard in the house that creaks. Rands means he just happened to unknowingly select Osan'gar without looking. Randomness wasnt involved in either of those two, not pure randomness. Not the sort of randomness that fits with the luck that makes Mat different from Rand and Perrin.

 

Boom.

 

Actually hes one of two. I maintain taht the dagger is the cause. That is, the daggers taint of course.

 

Make that 3.

[Alghar Khan]

First we have some nameless factor scrambling his supernatural luck

That would be the Dagger.

 

where Mats average lucky person luck was a mundane thing. And it wont have been Ishamael for the exact same reason.

Nothing says he was an average lucky person in Emond's Field. He says he was always lucky. Winning 6 or 8 tosses in a row (after picking up the Dagger) isn't exactly super-lucky. Even you or I would experience that several times during a ten day period.

[OptimusPrime]

Nothing says he was an average lucky person in Emond's Field. He says he was always lucky.

 

Right. Let me get this straight.

 

Mat notes to himself that he was always lucky. When does he note that from? Before he had the dagger, right. Why is it then that he now struggles to find something to explain that luck? If he was always this  abnormally lucky, then after he was Healed of the dagger he would think to himself "Aha! My luck is BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS." Definitely not "What is making me lucky?"

 

Im going to hand you a way out, I will believe you if you say you were joking but theres no way what you are proposing is right. At least not the way you're presenting it.

 

First we have some nameless factor scrambling his supernatural luck

That would be the Dagger.

 

That would be the reply you use when you cant think of anything else to say, given that you conveniently dont quote the parts that smash your idea to bits. Either take part in the debate or dont, but at least show why you disagree on new arguements. If I prove someone on your side wrong, then that is their fault for being wrong. If you believe Im wrong, show me why, dont just keep saying "you're wrong" because it isnt getting you anywhere.

[Alghar Khan]

Mat notes to himself that he was always lucky. When does he note that from? Before he had the dagger, right. Why is it then that he now struggles to find something to explain that luck? If he was always this  abnormally lucky, then after he was Healed of the dagger he would think to himself "Aha! My luck is BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS." Definitely not "What is making me lucky?"

I haven't said that he was always abnormally lucky. Quite the opposite. He wasn't all that lucky before he was healed from the dagger. There was no "jump" when he picked up the Dagger. And he did think that he was always lucky. Winning 6 or 8 tosses in a row against Hurin isn't "abnormally lucky". Even I would win that much (several times), if I played with someone during a period of ten days.

 

Im going to hand you a way out, I will believe you if you say you were joking but theres no way what you are proposing is right. At least not the way you're presenting it.

I haven't "presented" the things you think.

 

That would be the reply you use when you cant think of anything else to say, given that you conveniently dont quote the parts that smash your idea to bits.

Oh, I've explained myself already. You haven't smashed anything to bits.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Winning 6 or 8 tosses in a row against Hurin isn't "abnormally lucky". Even I would win that much (several times), if I played with someone during a period of ten days.

 

We arent just looking at dice though, are we? Mat was searching for Rahvin/whoever RANDOMLY and found him on the off chance. First he roamed aimlessly which took him to one of two inns. He then spun on the spot, randomly stopped himself and fell, landing facing the inn Rahvin/whoever just happened to be in. That was not ta'veren, it was Mats randomness luck. It doesnt just go off dice games so you can stop using the same bit to prove nothing.

 

Funny thing about this discussion is that when people disagree and you ask a specific question, giving them an opportunity to prove they are right, they ignore that opportunity because they lack the necessary tools to sieze it ie more evidence or another explanation.

 

If the dagger was suppressing Mats luck, why did he end up being luckier than he was in Emonds Field after the dagger had played his part, if not something to do with the daggers taint itself?

 

The luck fits with the nature of Aridhols intentions, and Mat was infected by something so strong that he would have died without the item that tainted him. Its no wonder the Aes Sedai couldnt remove its effects fully, none of those Aes Sedai were known for their abilities like Nynaeve and others.

 

Alghar, you yourself said that Mats luck, in Emonds Field, was not normal person luck. That would by default mean it had nothing to do with Ta'veren. Why is Mat surprised with his new luck level at all if he wasnt normal lucky in Emonds Field? He would recognise his own luck. You yourself say he wasnt lucky until being Healed of the dagger itself. So what was suppressing his luck prior to getting the dagger then? Something absolutely had to have been, in order for him to not remember that he was abnormally lucky.

 

There. If you dont answer that, well, it leaves a big hole in your theory. Im giving you the opportunity to show me that I am wrong, previous attempts havent been good enough, but what you propose, or seem to be proposing, leave us with that question. If the dagger suppressed his luck, what did prior to the dagger? Taking into account that the timing of this rules out both the Dark One and Ishamael because neither know of Mat or Perrin until they became Ta'veren.

 

I understand that you arent saying he was abnormally lucky. But that means then, if the dagger suppressed his luck, he must have been abnormally lucky for him to not notice how unlucky he was. That is, if the dagger suppressed his luck, which it didnt.

[Mr Ares]

Mr. Ares if I am so wrong about suppression give me a reason why mats luck jumps so much after final severing

If you're right about it, give me a reason why it jumps after he picks up the dagger.

 

also I find it interesting that your the one person whose opinions haven't changed during this thread. . . interesting possibilities

Veteran of this argument.

 

He says he was always lucky.

Then he got luckier after he picked up the dagger, then luckier still after TV.