Does anyone else loathe the Aiel?

[Epic]

You said English

Oooops.  I honestly meant to say British, but it was late and I'd just gotten back from camping and was tired because of it.  I thought I'd typed British which is why I was confused by your post Ares.  Thanks for clarifying my mistake.

 

I should have said that chainmail was light only in comparison to plate.  I will say that I've walked around all day through rough terrain with at least forty pounds on my back while camping and it wasn't very hard and I'm really not a very big guy.  Having said that I don't know what it'd be like fight in.  However, I think it is safe to assume that most proffessional soldiers (Defenders, WC, Companions, WG, House retainers) would train within their armor and get accustomed to the weight and know how to fight in it since that's their job.  They'd also be the only ones able to afford it so peasents wouldn't have to worry.  Just an assumption though.

 

Rand, Lan, Galad, etc. are the books superheroes and they can do anything because of it.  My problem with the Aiel (its only a little one) is that they all seem to be superheroes, with no average or below average fighters, all just Rand/Lan quality.  A little silly, buT I guess you have to have willing suspension of disbelief.

 

I'm gone for a week and leaving the thread.

[Epic]

Oh, and the Seanchan called the battle in PoD a defeat, the second defeat of the Ever Victorious Army, so I will too.

[Hybrid]

Oh, and the Seanchan called the battle in PoD a defeat, the second defeat of the Ever Victorious Army, so I will too.

Rand called it a defeat too.  But that's a topic for a different discussion.

[Miltiades]

Reading through again, do you truly believe I am the one who has been insulting?

You have been.

 

Right, so I give the specific examples in which each of us has ''insulted'' the other showing that you have done so both more often and more severely and you respond with an unsupported three word contradiction? That's basically the story of this whole argument right there.

 

And yet you've consistently thrown this at me:

 

But you don't say why

 

Again, you lack the why.

 

You say it, but where's the evidence? Nowhere to be seen.

 

The magnitude of your hypocrisy is truly astounding. That you can't see it is more so.

 

 

 

That said, you did briefly return to making actual points (as well as sense) that I can respond to, so I will.

 

And even when he does things unrelated to his supernatural powers? Like beating Galad and Gawyn? How about their skills, or Rand's instant blademastery?

 

Mat has supernatural luck, you cant really divorce that from anything that he does. It just means that everything is a bit more likely to go his way, still I don't believe that that explains why he beat Galad and Gawyn. I didn't find it that unbelievable that he could win, he winded Galad and took out Gawyn before either of them realized there was going to be a proper fight. Both of them expected to defeat him with absolutely no effort.

 

As for Rand, I was always under the impression that his void gave him an edge. The most unbelievable thing he does is take down that Seanchan guy in Falme. I did think that was a little weak. But still, these are main characters with all sorts of ta'veren, dead guy/guys in your head mystical ownage stuff going on, so whenever they do anything outrageous I just tell myself ''well, he's magic''.

 

If there was one other thing you've mentioned that I found as annoying as the Aiel it was when Galad massively outclassed the Shienarans and cut through that mob of people when Nynaeve and co left the circus. Thing is, Galad is a fairly minor character (thankfully) and doesnt appear often, so stupid stuff like that can be brushed over and forgotten. The Aiel appear all the time and the ridiculous amount of ass they kick is constantly shoved in your face.

 

It remains the case though that pointing out other things that are unbelievable doesnt make the Aiel less unbelievable. Like I said before, the fact that you're trying to say so is an implicit acceptance that they are to some extent unrealistic.

 

For example, you say they have rubbish equipment - not inferior, rubbish - and then you say spears are inferior to swrods in a melee. If we were talking about something 3m long, you'd have a point, that would be very unwieldy in close combat. But something no bigger than a sword? Used by someone who has trained with it for years, to an exceedingly high standard? Why is this such a vastly inferior weapon that you would expect them to be slaughtered by untrained peasants or idiotic nobles? Ridiculous.

 

Well, you yourself compared them to the Zulus, look how primitive they are. It would actually be difficult to imagine more primitive equipment than the Aiel have. The spear, along with the club was the earliest human weapon and their shields are as basic as you get. Can't really comment on the bows because as you said the only bows about which we know anything are Two Rivers ones.

 

The spears as they are explained is basically a sword with no edge, only the point. That's an inferior weapon, why ever not choose a sword? It's essentially the same weapon but it can only stab. Such a weapon would also forgo the effectiveness that proper polearms enjoy against cavalry, the very thing I have been saying would prove problematic for the Aiel and the very thing the wetlanders themselves love to use.

 

 

Anyway I haven't said the Aiel couldn't win against the wetlanders, only that they couldn't consistently annihilate them with the effortlessness implied in the books. Also the Aiel would never have developed this disdain and contempt for cavalry since they've got absolutely nothing to effectively fight it. They could only avoid it. When your every battle plan has to revolve around ''right, how do we prevent their cavalry from charging in and sweeping us from the field with extremely little effort?'' you're unlikely to view cavalry as the Aiel seem to in the books.

 

Also, you say ''untrained peasants''. I think you're overstating the case here. It is never said that wetlander armies are full of rabble. I've let this slide so far because I'll accept they'd be nowhere near as individually formidable as the Aiel but saying untrained peasants is a huge overstatement. Cairheinin soldiers shave the fronts of their heads, so we can assume soldiering is a career in Cairhien or they wouldn't have martial traditions like this. Also, Mat gets the Cairhienin pikemen to form a square at Cairhien. Even using a pike effectively in formation requires a fair bit of training, otherwise the pikes get tangled up, forming up square is more complicated still.

 

Where do you get the idea that wetlander armies are just peasants from?

 

You have not shown that to be true. You have shown that at least some people in the west are capable of building catapults, not that they are common knowledge or that the Aiel don't have them or that they would be effective anti-personnel weapons against the Aiel without the adjustments the AS made - exploding rocks - in the TR. You have not shown, either, that technology is so massive an advantage that it would overcome the Aiel advantages in leadership, discipline, ability to act in concert, quality of soldier, training, mobility, psychology, morale. Virtually every advantage lies with the Aiel, and those they don't have could be countered. In short, it is not implausible that they would win, it is exceedingly likely. They would win consistenly.

 

I really don't understand what you're talking about here. We should assume that the other wetlanders don't have catapults because it is not explicitly stated but we should assume that the Aiel do even though it is never so much as hinted at and all the evidence would point to them not?

 

Also, I'm certainly not going to deny the Aiel have an edge in the quality of their troops, but once again I think you overstate the case. The Aiel don't seem all that disciplined to me, they fight as individuals and only have one rank; Chief. There is never any mention of officers or underlings to the Chief of any kind. Just like cavalry, just like armour, officers were used for a reason, for a very good reason. We still use them today, we couldn't do without them. The Aiel military is archaic and unsophisticated, I cant understand how you can deny that. Yes they have great warriors but their military machine is just appalling.

 

 

My case is this; You cant just forgo all these very important things: cavalry, armour, close order infantry, weapons other than short spears, officers, and effortlessly annihilate people who do have them. If the only advantage you've got is how individually skilled and brave each of your men is every fight is going to be extremely hard. You can still win, but it will be a struggle and will require some very imaginative and inspired tactics.

[Miltiades]

 

 

A few points.

1) The Aiel have never actually been "caught in the open" by anyone.  As multiple people have pointed out, they employ scouts and wear camouflage.  They also move very fast for a very long time.  They are both aware of their surroundings and very hard to track down.

2) Mr Ares just provided an example of the Aiel standing up to cavalry and the tactics they used.

3) The Aiel do not fear death.  If cavalry charged them, they would take the losses necessary to break the charge.

3.5) The Aiel would maybe fear cavalry if the cavalry were used effectively, but they aren't.  Like I said before, Rand's POVs during battle scenes makes it pretty clear that many of the Cairhienin and Tairen officers simply want to throw their cavalry at the enemy without even stopping to consider the circumstances.

4) If a couple of farmboys can train for less than a year and be better than the majority of the wetlander fighters, than I think the Aiel - who are in peak physical condition and trained in martial arts practically from birth -  have the right to scoff at wetlander martial abilities.

 

 

 

1)But if you're never prepared to fight in the open than you arent really an invasion, you're just a group of bandits. What are you going to achieve running and hiding all the time?

 

2)The fact that it happened in the books doesnt mean it is plausible in real life. Loose foot against cavalry is a massacre, every time. There is no tactic that will allow light infantry equipped for skirmishing to defeat, or even not get slaughtered by, heavy cavalry, once they have closed.

 

3)This is another aspect of the Aiel that is utterly unbelievable. Humans fear death. Even Spartan soldiers surrendered during the Peloponnesian  war. And they were routed at Leuktra. The fact that the Spartans never experienced a route in so long was more testament to their ability to win than their courage in the face of defeat. Everyone can be broken. While there are examples like Thermopylae where men fought to the death, they had time to prepare for this, even the bravest are scared of sudden terrors and being massacred by a sudden cavalry charge will send ANYONE running.

 

3.5)When your opponent has nothing on the field but light infantry throwing your cavalry at them is an effective tactic. All you need is a clear shot at them and you can charge to victory, they have nothing to withstand you. If they had some, any sort of deterrent it would be different. But there's just nothing there with the staying power to hold. They're all just flimsy, juicy targets. As I've said, troops like the Aiel were always cavalry's preferred target, even before stirrups, mail armour, or lances. They were the paper to your scissors.

 

4)The farmboys are magic.

[Mutsumi]

 

 

A few points.

1) The Aiel have never actually been "caught in the open" by anyone.  As multiple people have pointed out, they employ scouts and wear camouflage.  They also move very fast for a very long time.  They are both aware of their surroundings and very hard to track down.

2) Mr Ares just provided an example of the Aiel standing up to cavalry and the tactics they used.

3) The Aiel do not fear death.  If cavalry charged them, they would take the losses necessary to break the charge.

3.5) The Aiel would maybe fear cavalry if the cavalry were used effectively, but they aren't.  Like I said before, Rand's POVs during battle scenes makes it pretty clear that many of the Cairhienin and Tairen officers simply want to throw their cavalry at the enemy without even stopping to consider the circumstances.

4) If a couple of farmboys can train for less than a year and be better than the majority of the wetlander fighters, than I think the Aiel - who are in peak physical condition and trained in martial arts practically from birth -  have the right to scoff at wetlander martial abilities.

 

 

 

1)But if you're never prepared to fight in the open than you arent really an invasion, you're just a group of bandits. What are you going to achieve running and hiding all the time?

 

2)The fact that it happened in the books doesnt mean it is plausible in real life. Loose foot against cavalry is a massacre, every time. There is no tactic that will allow light infantry equipped for skirmishing to defeat, or even not get slaughtered by, heavy cavalry, once they have closed.

 

3)This is another aspect of the Aiel that is utterly unbelievable. Humans fear death. Even Spartan soldiers surrendered during the Peloponnesian  war. And they were routed at Leuktra. The fact that the Spartans never experienced a route in so long was more testament to their ability to win than their courage in the face of defeat. Everyone can be broken. While there are examples like Thermopylae where men fought to the death, they had time to prepare for this, even the bravest are scared of sudden terrors and being massacred by a sudden cavalry charge will send ANYONE running.

 

3.5)When your opponent has nothing on the field but light infantry throwing your cavalry at them is an effective tactic. All you need is a clear shot at them and you can charge to victory, they have nothing to withstand you. If they had some, any sort of deterrent it would be different. But there's just nothing there with the staying power to hold. They're all just flimsy, juicy targets. As I've said, troops like the Aiel were always cavalry's preferred target, even before stirrups, mail armour, or lances. They were the paper to your scissors.

 

4)The farmboys are magic.

 

1) Well the wetlands commanders being what they are, they're usually happy to go traipsing in wrong terrain. And I wouldn't call 100k army a group of bandits even if they did use skirmishing and avoidance tactics. As said before the aiel are better suited to being compared with light cavalry if we want to make parallels in fighting styles. You know what the usual effective fighting style is with massed light cavalry not hampered by terrain? I'll give you a hint: I doens't have anythign to do with taking frontal charges from heavy cavalry.

2) Loose foot is usually massacred in real world is such situation because it's usually not skilled enough to counter effectively. A well trained skirmishing infantry would not have such an issue, because the heavy cavalry is easy to bait, flank and bog down in melee. Once that heavy cavalry loses momentum, it's just a huge target waiting to get killed. Remember chasing down fleeing peasants is slightly different from what were talking about here.

3) The aiel psyche is a bit odd, but I have absolutely no problem believing they wouldn't not rout in combat situations such as this. This is what they live for. They face death often, so they are used to it. All in all they behave exactly as I would expect them to behave given all that we know of their culture and mentality.

3.5) All I can say is it ain't so easy as you seem to assume. It's all fine and dandy to say "cavalry charge UWAA!" but it rarely works out quite as easily. And the cav's are a one trick pony afterall. We've given you plenty of things to counter your "my cavalry pwns your infantry" but if you choose to igonre it and just bet everything you have on cavalry winning on the charge then there's not much discussion.

[Braus]

 

 

Rand, Lan, Galad, etc. are the books superheroes and they can do anything because of it.  My problem with the Aiel (its only a little one) is that they all seem to be superheroes, with no average or below average fighters, all just Rand/Lan quality.  A little silly, buT I guess you have to have willing suspension of disbelief.

 

I'm gone for a week and leaving the thread.

 

Not really mate, the only Aiel that proberly are at the standards of Rand/Lan etc is proberly some of the best of the best fighthers and maybe people like Rhuarc and other clan chiefs. One thing most Aiel proberly are though, is that they are better runners/climbers etc, can take/withstand harsher treatment. Then again both Rand and Lan have lived very very hard lifes, so they are proberly not far away, but im sure there is Aiel, who after all been living a certain way all their life, that is stronger than Lan/Rand. Lan/Rand are still soft wetlanders in away, even if Lan trained from birth, i think there is harder Aiel warriors out there, who would win in a duel though, i cant say.

 

What the Aiel are though, is that they are alot better trained than the average wetlander. ALOT. When an Aiel takes up the spear, i can bet that they get responsibilities, they need to be even harder and more skilled than the normal "civilians" that lives in the Clans. Its a job for them, and the job is a active one where they need to stay at the top, they arent like the defenders of the stone who just guards a big forttress doing nothing.

 

So no, i think the average Aiel has had alot better training than the average wetlander. And i think the Average "best/skilled" Aiel, has had better training and is better than the average "best/skilled" wetlander. Id say its like comparing kids who practise for sports. Say that a normal kid in europe or america might get interested in a sport like for example gymnastics, and practise a few times in the week, and then maybe becoming Proffessional and start practising abit more. While a kid in China would train 7 days aweek many hours. Nothing says that the kid from China will become better, training isnt talent after all, but the average kid from China will proberly be better since they are foced to train alot more.

[Thor]

first of all, rand is average at best, riatin completely owned him and lan didn't even break a sweat taking riatin out.

 

perrin would defeat rand easily in 1v1 hand to hand combat.

 

rand is 'good' just as moiraine is 'strong' amongst aes sedai.

[Braus]

 

 

A few points.

1) The Aiel have never actually been "caught in the open" by anyone.  As multiple people have pointed out, they employ scouts and wear camouflage.  They also move very fast for a very long time.  They are both aware of their surroundings and very hard to track down.

2) Mr Ares just provided an example of the Aiel standing up to cavalry and the tactics they used.

3) The Aiel do not fear death.  If cavalry charged them, they would take the losses necessary to break the charge.

3.5) The Aiel would maybe fear cavalry if the cavalry were used effectively, but they aren't.  Like I said before, Rand's POVs during battle scenes makes it pretty clear that many of the Cairhienin and Tairen officers simply want to throw their cavalry at the enemy without even stopping to consider the circumstances.

4) If a couple of farmboys can train for less than a year and be better than the majority of the wetlander fighters, than I think the Aiel - who are in peak physical condition and trained in martial arts practically from birth -  have the right to scoff at wetlander martial abilities

 

 

 

1)But if you're never prepared to fight in the open than you arent really an invasion, you're just a group of bandits. What are you going to achieve running and hiding all the time?

 

2)The fact that it happened in the books doesnt mean it is plausible in real life. Loose foot against cavalry is a massacre, every time. There is no tactic that will allow light infantry equipped for skirmishing to defeat, or even not get slaughtered by, heavy cavalry, once they have closed.

 

3)This is another aspect of the Aiel that is utterly unbelievable. Humans fear death. Even Spartan soldiers surrendered during the Peloponnesian  war. And they were routed at Leuktra. The fact that the Spartans never experienced a route in so long was more testament to their ability to win than their courage in the face of defeat. Everyone can be broken. While there are examples like Thermopylae where men fought to the death, they had time to prepare for this, even the bravest are scared of sudden terrors and being massacred by a sudden cavalry charge will send ANYONE running.

 

3.5)When your opponent has nothing on the field but light infantry throwing your cavalry at them is an effective tactic. All you need is a clear shot at them and you can charge to victory, they have nothing to withstand you. If they had some, any sort of deterrent it would be different. But there's just nothing there with the staying power to hold. They're all just flimsy, juicy targets. As I've said, troops like the Aiel were always cavalry's preferred target, even before stirrups, mail armour, or lances. They were the paper to your scissors.

 

4)The farmboys are magic.

 

1. What you going to achieve? Everything. Its called tactics and you really seem to be lost somewhere, there is nothing called fair in war. YOU still havent answered what parts of the books you think Aiel is superhuman, and you keep talking about invasions when, if u had read the books, forexample the Aiel war never was thought of as a war for the Aiel, only the wetlands called it that, they even said themselves that it was a war they had won, not the Aiel, it was just a punishment expedition meant to kill the king who cut down Avendosora.

Again and again, you repeat your arguements, and they got no bearing when it comes to the books. You are trying to argue, giving examples on how cavalry beats Infantery, when its not even interested unless you come up a scene from the books where Jordan did a mistake, a ilogical mistake. This is about the books. Its about the people Aiel, the people Jordan created, and you dont even use all the information that is in the books.

 

Let me tell you my new hypotes:

Infantery is better than Cavalry. This is why:

 

A army of cavalery stands at the bottom of a hill in a green lanscape with trees and bushes and grass all aroung, and they are facing infantery with bows and spears and bucklers. The infantery wins. So obviously, Infantery > Cavalery, there is no denying.

 

Or a squadron of cavalry rides towards a group of Infantery in high grass, suddenly all aroung them people stands up all around and starts raining spears and arrows on them and their horse.

 

Or a mass of cavalry charges forward a mass of Aiel. Once they are done with their charge and have cut a path into the ranks of the Aiel, they prepare to retreat to resemble and do another charge, but suddenly they are cut of on both flanks by groups of running Aiel, with little room and aiel all around them, stabbing at horses and riders, raining arrows on the easy targets high up in the air above everyone else and spears. Cutting horses in the legs, hulking and avoiding the immobile riders tries to hit them etc. Finally they manage to turn their horse around and cut a path back, question is who lost the most in the end and losing a trained war horse is just as bad as losing a trained soldier.

 

But to be serious, the kind of open warfare you are talking about anyway doesnt exist anymore. Pretty much any army worth mentioning nowadays will have their share of channelers, and open fight on open fields is extremly easy meet. If i would be a soldier i would personally much rather have some kind of cover when i fight others, if the conditions is that a lighting bolt can strike at me anytime if im out in the open, or not close to a channeler with a shield up. In those cases, stealthyness and guerilla tactics works wonders.

 

2. For one, this forum is about the books, at least this general discussion part.

  For another, what exactly are u basing the "There is no tactic that will allow light infantry equipped for skirmishing to defeat, or even not get slaughtered by, heavy cavalry, once they have closed." Whats the logics behind it. Explain it instead of just saying it. What if i would tell you that "There is no tactic that will allow light infantry equipped for skirmishing to NOT defeat, or even not slaughter heavy cavalry, once they have closed."  Can i say this? would i get as much credability as you, without explaining anything? Is this a good arguement?

And again back to the books, when there is battles the battle area is generally very well described and you pretty much get all the information on how both sides look. And then at the end you usually get the information who wins. Now which of these countless fights in the book seems illogical? And it should be illogical out of a perspective that this is a book. Im not saying that 5 man beating 5000 should be allowed. But be it serious movies or books or even history, there is still alot of bad odds victories, so not to harsh.

 

 

3 Aiel does surrender, just look at the Aiel that has become gaishan from the shadio, to Seanchan. But usually they dont surrender, except to other Aiel because of Ji e Toh. Ji e Toh is everything to them. And they got no respect for wetlanders in that regard, they would NEVER become gaishan to a wetlander, and thats their way of surrendering. So its part of the reason why i think Aiel would fight to the bitter end if they were surrounded, but im sure they would escape if possible. Another reason would be that they truelly are believers in Ji e Toh, and they keep repeating life is a dream etc. In regards they are extremly similar to the wolfs, and i dont mean that because of the "dream", but because the wolfs can go to any measure to kill shadowspawn, and some kind of stubborness is proberly in the Aiel aswell.

I dont think Aiel would ever break vs a charge, it wouldnt be honourable, it would mean that he would let the rest of his commrads down. And he would loose alot of ji or toh(cant remember which is what). So yes i think at least that Aiel would stand for a avalanche of charging cavalry, and they would do everything in their power to break that avalanche or outsmart it.

Besides just look at the maidens that follows Rand, thats proof how the Aiel warriors think and acts. I got no idea if Aiel Civilians are as strong in their beliefs though.

 

3.5 Now thats how weiramon would think, charge at any given time on infantery. Im not saying that to insult you, but i think its ignorant to say that all there is to it is charge. Its too simplified. Its like saying that all there is to archers, is shoot. Or for infantery men to kill.

 

4. Again, the farmboys are far from magic. They are far from the best fighers in the world.

  Rand first of all, might have mastered the blademastery to some extent at the end of KOD, but he almost died numerous times before. The Seanchan highlord almost killed him, before he did a unexpected move, sheathing the sword(sorry cant remember if thats the correct sentence, read the books in english only once and once in swedish, and listened to em 2 times in audio >.<). Same thing with Belal in the stone of tear, Moraine saved him that time with balefire. Then the Myrdraal in the stone of tear, who almost killed him. And at last the highlord Toran i think, in the forest next to Carhien who was alot more skilled than Rand. Rand might have mastered the sword rather fast, with the help of his travel companion Lan(he have after all spent alot of time with the man, like some months in the eye of the world, a few months before the great hunt, and proberly alot of time after falme and then in tear/the waste up until Moraine dies. So he have had great tutoring, and he already knew the void and the flame from his father before he started training.

 

Perrin, i think he plays alot more on his strength than finess. Lan did help him practise with the Axe he took with him from Emonds field, but i dunno how good Perrin actually is. For example the fight with Aram in KOD, feels abit unreal, feels like Aram should had been able to kill Perrin rather quick, using a sword. A hammer and a knife isnt the best defense against a sword(at least thats what i think, but then again ive never carried a knife bigger than a penknife/kitchen knife anyway :)) Perrin feels more like a berserk, and we really havent had that many fights where he have had to proove his skills, compared to the other 2. Feels like the wheel kinda protects all the boys from getting into to much trouble.

 

Mat, well obviously he knows how to use a quaterstaff, and have practised that with his father abit i guess. Dunno if he got any knowledge with other weapons, besides throwing knifes. But he did get alot of knowledge passed down into his head how to use his spear. I dont really think his luck got anything to do with his skills though. His luck doesnt work that way, as said his works favours him in situations where he is left out completly to the destiny, like when he fell from the roof in tar valon, or when the high lord tried to sneak up and stab him in the stone of tear when he was rescueing the girls.

[Mr Ares]

Mat has supernatural luck, you cant really divorce that from anything that he does.

You can when this was before the manifestation of that luck. He was lucky, but it was later that we see the first appearance of the superhuman luck we associate with him.

 

stupid stuff like that can be brushed over and forgotten. The Aiel appear all the time and the ridiculous amount of ass they kick is constantly shoved in your face.

So your point is that it needs a supernatural explanation except when it doesn't. Double standard.

 

It remains the case though that pointing out other things that are unbelievable doesnt make the Aiel less unbelievable. Like I said before, the fact that you're trying to say so is an implicit acceptance that they are to some extent unrealistic.

I told you, no it isn't. It is trying to get you to admit your stance is illogical and a double standard. The Aiel do not need a supernatural explanation, end of story, and if you think they do then you need to be consistent, and require that other, similar levels of improbability receive the same treatment.

 

Well, you yourself compared them to the Zulus, look how primitive they are.

They have better equipment than the Zulus.

The spear, along with the club was the earliest human weapon

Spears, which you keep mentioning as a devastating weapon against cavalry, are now the most primitive weapons imanginable! It doesn't matter about the quality of the spear, or the type, they're just unbelieveably primitive!

 

The spears as they are explained is basically a sword with no edge

No, they have a long point with sharp edges.

 

Anyway I haven't said the Aiel couldn't win against the wetlanders, only that they couldn't consistently annihilate them with the effortlessness implied in the books.

Yes, they could, given all the factors we have seen. They have more than enough advantages to win in most cases, and when they face superior opposition they lose. No magic. No examples of being superhuman.

Also the Aiel would never have developed this disdain and contempt for cavalry since they've got absolutely nothing to effectively fight it.

That's just wrong. They can easily view the use of horses as a sign of weakness. And they do have something to effectively fight it. Terrain, tactics, skill. The cavalry would be at its most devastating at the charge. Just bog down the charge and slaughter the horses. Not too hard.

 

I think you're overstating the case here.

A technique you're fond of using. Pajamas? The Wetlander armies are primarily conscripts, formed around a smaller professional core. Take Andor as an example. The Queen's Guard isn't a standing army, but they form the basis of the army when an army is needed.

 

We should assume that the other wetlanders don't have catapults

Well, it was built in the TR, who are shown to have weapons no-one else does - the longbows - by, IIRC, the AS or their Warders, and it is known that the Tower has knowledge no-one else does. Further, the primary use would be as a siege weapon, no use against the Aiel. In the TR, the AS used the Power to make the rocks explode. There haven't been many occasions when such weapons would be of use to the Aiel. So, not much use for them, not much use against. Not exactly a factor in your favour.

 

The simple fact is that when you have the most disciplined, best led, best trained troops, you have a huge advantage. They are better able to co-ordinate offensives, they have a huge mobility advantage, yet you dismiss all of that. And they're not afraid of death. That is a huge advantage in a battle. It doesn't matter if you kill a lot of them, as they can use that sacrifice to gain an advantage that will defeat you. At the Battle of Cairhien, there was little co-ordination between forces - the Tairen's were quite willing to run off and leave the Cairhienin horse and the pikes behind. When Mat took charge, he brought about a series of victories in each engagement by co-ordinating horse and pikes. Usually, this was not done. They'd just rush off to defeat the saavages, and thus get defeated in detail. So the Aiel are not superhuman, they are simply possessed of many advantages that they use to the fullest, and when the opposition makes good use of what they have to cancel out the Aiel advantages, and make suse of their own, they do so to devastating effect and prove victorious. There is no need for magical explanations. Just read the books properly. They are not superhuman.

 

1)But if you're never prepared to fight in the open than you arent really an invasion, you're just a group of bandits. What are you going to achieve running and hiding all the time?

That's not what was said. Choose the ground to fight on so it favours you. Attack thr enemy in flank and rear, rather than head on. Weaken him before bringing him to the field. All pretty standard. They are not "caught" in the open, they do the catching.

 

The fact that it happened in the books doesnt mean it is plausible in real life.

You don't care what has been written, how they do what they do. You won't accept it, no matter what points are brought forward. Hell, even if it actually happened, you'd probably say the same.

 

This is another aspect of the Aiel that is utterly unbelievable. Humans fear death.

Not all of them. It is perfectly believable. And it can be a huge advantage. And while the Aiel can be broken, it will take more than an unplanned cavalry charge to do it.

 

When your opponent has nothing on the field but light infantry throwing your cavalry at them is an effective tactic.

Riding into an ambush is an effective tactic? The Aiel do have something that will stand against a cavalry charge - themselves. And they can make use of terrain.

[dholm]

For example, you say they have rubbish equipment - not inferior, rubbish - and then you say spears are inferior to swrods in a melee. If we were talking about something 3m long, you'd have a point, that would be very unwieldy in close combat. But something no bigger than a sword? Used by someone who has trained with it for years, to an exceedingly high standard? Why is this such a vastly inferior weapon that you would expect them to be slaughtered by untrained peasants or idiotic nobles? Ridiculous.

 

Well, you yourself compared them to the Zulus, look how primitive they are. It would actually be difficult to imagine more primitive equipment than the Aiel have. The spear, along with the club was the earliest human weapon and their shields are as basic as you get. Can't really comment on the bows because as you said the only bows about which we know anything are Two Rivers ones.

 

The spears as they are explained is basically a sword with no edge, only the point. That's an inferior weapon, why ever not choose a sword? It's essentially the same weapon but it can only stab. Such a weapon would also forgo the effectiveness that proper polearms enjoy against cavalry, the very thing I have been saying would prove problematic for the Aiel and the very thing the wetlanders themselves love to use.

You forget that the Aiel have knives that could almost be short swords.

 

The fact that the spear is one of the earliest weapons we have does not make it inferior whatsoever. A spear with a shortened shaft, such as the Aiel use, would be far more maneuverable than a spear with a proper shaft. It is also not the same as a sword at all; you can wield it differently. You can stab much faster than you would be able to with a sword, because you can hold it closer to the point. Also, long swords and broad swords are really not very well designed for stabbing. They rely on the edge. Short swords and rapiers are thrusting swords. The others aren't.

 

Their shields are also not "as basic as you can get" -- that would be a plain wooden shield (with no or little iron reinforcement). Their shields are wood covered in cured hide, which is much tougher than plain wood.

 

Their bows are described as "horn bows" -- I take that to be a composite bow. Considering the Aiel mobility, this is probably an extremely good choice, despite the fact that it historically was more of use as a horse bow.

 

Anyway I haven't said the Aiel couldn't win against the wetlanders, only that they couldn't consistently annihilate them with the effortlessness implied in the books. Also the Aiel would never have developed this disdain and contempt for cavalry since they've got absolutely nothing to effectively fight it. They could only avoid it. When your every battle plan has to revolve around ''right, how do we prevent their cavalry from charging in and sweeping us from the field with extremely little effort?'' you're unlikely to view cavalry as the Aiel seem to in the books.

You ought to reread the books. Your way of thinking is covered rather well there. You can't see beyond the glory of the charge.

 

Also, you say ''untrained peasants''. I think you're overstating the case here. It is never said that wetlander armies are full of rabble. I've let this slide so far because I'll accept they'd be nowhere near as individually formidable as the Aiel but saying untrained peasants is a huge overstatement. Cairheinin soldiers shave the fronts of their heads, so we can assume soldiering is a career in Cairhien or they wouldn't have martial traditions like this. Also, Mat gets the Cairhienin pikemen to form a square at Cairhien. Even using a pike effectively in formation requires a fair bit of training, otherwise the pikes get tangled up, forming up square is more complicated still.

 

Where do you get the idea that wetlander armies are just peasants from?

Because most of them are. Andor and Tear have trained soldiers, but they are little more than a police force. The Children of the Light are professional soldiers as well, for what it's worth. You can lump in mercenaries with them. That's an extremely small force compared to what's been fielded.

 

Anyone else are levied peasants. They get what training they can, but it is not much. It's a feudal society. They pick up a spear when their Lord or Lady tells them they have to, then they go back to the hoe.

 

Some of said levies have fought each other for decades, which would be the semi-professional soldiers you see in Cairhien and Tear.

 

You have not shown that to be true. You have shown that at least some people in the west are capable of building catapults, not that they are common knowledge or that the Aiel don't have them or that they would be effective anti-personnel weapons against the Aiel without the adjustments the AS made - exploding rocks - in the TR. You have not shown, either, that technology is so massive an advantage that it would overcome the Aiel advantages in leadership, discipline, ability to act in concert, quality of soldier, training, mobility, psychology, morale. Virtually every advantage lies with the Aiel, and those they don't have could be countered. In short, it is not implausible that they would win, it is exceedingly likely. They would win consistenly.

 

I really don't understand what you're talking about here. We should assume that the other wetlanders don't have catapults because it is not explicitly stated but we should assume that the Aiel do even though it is never so much as hinted at and all the evidence would point to them not?

The Aiel probably do not have siege engines, but siege engines aren't worth much when you're not assaulting a fortified position, so what does it matter? The catapults in Emond's Field were a special case, with their exploding rocks.

 

Also, I'm certainly not going to deny the Aiel have an edge in the quality of their troops, but once again I think you overstate the case. The Aiel don't seem all that disciplined to me, they fight as individuals and only have one rank; Chief. There is never any mention of officers or underlings to the Chief of any kind. Just like cavalry, just like armour, officers were used for a reason, for a very good reason. We still use them today, we couldn't do without them. The Aiel military is archaic and unsophisticated, I cant understand how you can deny that. Yes they have great warriors but their military machine is just appalling.

It's easy to deny it, because it's completely untrue. They are extremely well disciplined and any claim to the contrary is ludicrous. They also do NOT only have one rank. There are leaders for practically every step you can find. There's a clan chief, yes - that's equivalent to a king, no matter the Aiel claims to the contrary. Then there are sept leaders -- nobles, if you will. Then there are society leaders -- officers, for lack of a better term. Then there are society leaders for individual septs. Lesser officers.

 

My case is this; You cant just forgo all these very important things: cavalry, armour, close order infantry, weapons other than short spears, officers, and effortlessly annihilate people who do have them. If the only advantage you've got is how individually skilled and brave each of your men is every fight is going to be extremely hard. You can still win, but it will be a struggle and will require some very imaginative and inspired tactics.

Cavalry is a very specialized advantage. When they can be brought to bear, they are extremely fine to have -- but considering the nature of the Aiel, it simply doesn't happen often. They would need a) something to charge at, b) terrain fit for charging, and c) a rout. Armor is an advantage as well, certainly, but so is mobility and camouflage. The Aiel do have infantry. The spear is a much better weapon than you give it credit for; look it up. As I said before, they have officers.

[Braus]

 

The simple fact is that when you have the most disciplined, best led, best trained troops, you have a huge advantage. They are better able to co-ordinate offensives, they have a huge mobility advantage, yet you dismiss all of that. And they're not afraid of death. That is a huge advantage in a battle. It doesn't matter if you kill a lot of them, as they can use that sacrifice to gain an advantage that will defeat you. At the Battle of Cairhien, there was little co-ordination between forces - the Tairen's were quite willing to run off and leave the Cairhienin horse and the pikes behind. When Mat took charge, he brought about a series of victories in each engagement by co-ordinating horse and pikes. Usually, this was not done. They'd just rush off to defeat the saavages, and thus get defeated in detail. So the Aiel are not superhuman, they are simply possessed of many advantages that they use to the fullest, and when the opposition makes good use of what they have to cancel out the Aiel advantages, and make suse of their own, they do so to devastating effect and prove victorious. There is no need for magical explanations. Just read the books properly. They are not superhuman.

 

Remember that the Carhien and Tarien wasnt numerous at all. They were just a few thousand, no other wetlanders participated in the battle outside the walls, except the few who stormed out of the gate and was killed. With proper leading Mat indeed managed to defeat the Aiel, often when the Aiel was even in greater numbers than his forces without to much casulties. Then again he had battleluck, but he didnt in turn have any really reliable scouts like he gets later with the red hand, so he had negative problems aswell. While the Aiel on the other hand always have extremly good scouts, and they can move extremly fast in such terrain.

Didnt Mat manage to kill off Couladin and his group of Aiel, yet they were bigger than his.

 

Again Mili, stop avoiding it and give examples from the books where the Aiel are superhuman. You havent given a SINGLE example yet. You just keep rambling on about cavalry beating that and that, making assumptions and statements without explaining them. Stop going offtopic please.

 

This is another aspect of the Aiel that is utterly unbelievable. Humans fear death.

Not all of them. It is perfectly believable. And it can be a huge advantage. And while the Aiel can be broken, it will take more than an unplanned cavalry charge to do it.

Just look at the germanic people who fought the Romans. Im not comparing their discipline or fighting skills with the Aiel, but they two was in ways fearless.

[elmis]

Again Mili, stop avoiding it and give examples from the books where the Aiel are superhuman. You havent given a SINGLE example yet. You just keep rambling on about cavalry beating that and that, making assumptions and statements without explaining them. Stop going offtopic please

 

1. Countless mentionings about the Aiel war, and that some "fools" think the wetlanders (all united mind you and under brilliant leadership of the five captains) routed them at the Shining Walls, when they just had done what they came for, or would have won that battle too if Laman didn't die (latter part isn't said, but it is implied).

2. After the Trollock wars, the Waste is called "the Dying Grounds" by Trollocs and Myrdraal, despite ravaging the wetlands - at the height of their military might (Mantheren and all those other nations).

3. Gaul and Perrin beating ten Whitecloaks.

4. 100 odd Aiel taking the Stone of Tear. Even Birgitte, Faith of the Light, Silverbow, wouldn't try to sneak into the Stone, save for Gaidal.

5. The Shaido nearly scaling the walls of Cairhien three times, without ladders or other equipment.

6. Kinda flimsy, but but the way they are described. They are all described almost "warderesque", in lack of a better term. (ex. Ingtar, the Shienarian Heavy Horse soldier guy, says that stopping Stone Dogs charging is like trying to stop an avalance - even you all agree that Heavy Horse > Aiel in cotton if they charge at eachother). 

 

After a point, ca middle of book 6, the Aiel are somewhat toned down, or the others (Younglings, Sanchean, TRB (Tow Rivers Bowmen, ect) are beefed up to be on their level.

 

Ex: Gawyn spotting an Aiel hiding in a bush before Dumais, Younglings cutting their way out of the fight, Sanchean at least giving the Shaido Aiel a fight, the Malden fight, the Tearians(?) outpacing the Aiel towards Illian, ect.

[riigvroq]

what I belive is the main thing everybody forgets in the Aiel vs Wetlanders is the fact, stated in the books, that the wetlanders are not use to comanding armys larger then a couple of thusand. during the aiel war jordan states there were between 70-150k with aiel soldiers and 100k of wetlanders + some warders and aes sedai fighting. first of you can't, also stated, find a field large enough for a force that large so the battle of tar valon can't have been one battle on one field rather a dussin or so battles close to tar valon.

 

so if you put together forces comanded by generals, not use to comanding such large forces, from different countrys, on fields not perfectly suited for a cavalry charge, this is not stated but no one is so stupid a comander as to give you enemy that kind of advantage. the aiel dosen't use cavalery but can't be blind to the strenght in cavalery.

 

so unexperienced comenders, battlefields better suited for light infantry, winterweather adds together to aiel victory.

[elmis]

Winterweather (snow) should in all honesty be a con for the Aiel and a pro for the wetlanders - as they have never experienced it before (it doesn't snow in the Waste). Napoleon tried to take Russia with summer clothing (cotton), that didn't go so well.

[Braus]

Napolean lost to russia because russia used the same tactic they have always used. Abusing their big country and huge number of citizens, burning up all fields and supplies in the enemys path and wearing em out.

 

Snow or no snow isnt interesting, the only place it really does snow is apparently in the borderlands. The Aiel war centered mainly around Tear/Carhien and then at the end Tar Valon.

About the cold air, im pretty sure Aiel is used to it in ways because of their cold nights in the waste, but yeah maybe they are unused to deep snow or frozen lakes/rivers(which they proberly love).

 

Regardless, the snow shouldnt have affected them alot in the Aiel wars, at least not in the beginning since they were mainly in the south east, not until they reach Tar Valon, which is still south of any borderland.

[Hybrid]

Braus sorta beat me to it.

Hot deserts usually have a large diurnal and seasonal temperature range, with high daytime temperatures, and low nighttime temperatures (due to extremely low humidity). In hot deserts the temperature in the daytime can reach 45 °C/113 °F or higher in the summer, and dip to 0 °C/32°F or lower in the winter. Water acts to trap infrared radiation from both the sun and the ground, and dry desert air is incapable of blocking sunlight during the day or trapping heat during the night. Thus, during daylight most of the sun's heat reaches the ground, and as soon as the sun sets the desert cools quickly by radiating its heat into space.

While the Aiel would definitely not have seen snow before in the books (this is mentioned by the Shaido) and heavy snowfall should have slowed them down (again mentioned with the Shaido), the change would not be as drastic as Napoleon (or anyone else) attempting to invade Russia.  Braus pointed out the differences pretty well, I think.  The Aiel live in a climate where temperatures are both extreme and variable, so that aspect (temperature) would not have made a huge difference.

 

EDIT: Fixed a few things to make it clearer.

[Perrin 187]

Actually in COT we learn that it snows as far south as Ghealden during certain times of the year.

[riigvroq]

what i meant with snow as a con for the aiel is the fact that it would slow down an cavalery charge that the wetlanders rely on. you can't really compare it with napoleons russia campaign since there was no battle in it.

 

so snow would supise aiel but would take awat the wetlanders lagest advantage, full front cavalery charge.

[Braus]

Again Mili, stop avoiding it and give examples from the books where the Aiel are superhuman. You havent given a SINGLE example yet. You just keep rambling on about cavalry beating that and that, making assumptions and statements without explaining them. Stop going offtopic please

1. Countless mentionings about the Aiel war, and that some "fools" think the wetlanders (all united mind you and under brilliant leadership of the five captains) routed them at the Shining Walls, when they just had done what they came for, or would have won that battle too if Laman didn't die (latter part isn't said, but it is implied).

As said the Aiel war, which by the aiel isnt even called a war. Had been going on for along time before the Union took place. About the great generals, who was a general on that time and who wasnt, im only sure of Pedan Nial from the whitecloaks. I dont know if its implied that the Aiel would have won if they had stayed and fought the entire might of all the wetlander nations(at the end i think its mentioned the wetlanders had abit over 200k soldiers, that is i think its mentioned in New Spring in one of Lans chapter, though im not sure, but that was on the end). But the Aiel did have 4 clans, 4 united clans that proberly were prepared for this punishment expedition, led by Rands Father i think. Thats alot of trained Aiel soldiers, and i say it again, everyone who is a Aiel soldier, have trained his whole life. Compared to the wetlanders, who proberly barely had anything worth mentioning in the beginning, nothing to stop the mass of Aiel(they hardly had any forwarning, the wetlanders didnt have any real contact with the Aiel except by peddlers) so them crossing the dragon wall united, came as a suprise. The wetlanders was also as you said united somehow, and i doubt it was a good mix of soldiers and generals. Just look at the Chapter where Lan promises a Arrogant Tairen to be the Anvil for a few hundred Aiel, and it turns out there is over 2000 of them.

 

I just dont agree that they did anything overpowered in the Aiel wars. They were just a too good army of trained soldiers, and they had the numbers with them from the start. And the disciplin/leadership.

 

2. After the Trollock wars, the Waste is called "the Dying Grounds" by Trollocs and Myrdraal, despite ravaging the wetlands - at the height of their military might (Mantheren and all those other nations).

Again i dont know what happened in the Waste during that time, havent really had any history on it, how the war was etc, how many trollocks. But for one thing, wasnt Mantheren betrayed? forexample. I just feel that this comes again and again, the wetlands feels alot less united.

3. Gaul and Perrin beating ten Whitecloaks.

Been reasoning about this before, its hardly impossible, just looking at the rest of the books what other people does. Or for that sake pretty much looking at any similar kind of book, be in fantasy or some kind of warhistory roman. The odds really isnt that great, at least not compared 2 what they do later.

4. 100 odd Aiel taking the Stone of Tear. Even Birgitte, Faith of the Light, Silverbow, wouldn't try to sneak into the Stone, save for Gaidal.

Closer to 200 Aiel i think, i know it was above 150. And again, the defenders of the stone is pretty much cermonial guards, pretty much like the guys we got standing outside our Swedish Castle in Stockholm who stands still infront of a door for hours without moving. And it wasnt a siege, the Aiel entered the stone without the defenders knowing it. They climbed the same way as Rand, which does take some skill and strength, but at least they wear Pajamases, hey! :)

5. The Shaido nearly scaling the walls of Cairhien three times, without ladders or other equipment.

This i dont know, that is just because its said that they didnt use ladders in the books(if it does, dont remember that) it doesnt matter that they didnt use something to try and get over the walls. Its just not really written that much about in the books.

Besides the reasons why they almost got over is naturally because they were so many. This wasnt some 35000 or so soldiers laying siege to a city like with Elayne and Caemlyn. This was around 170-180 thousand spears. And before Rand came with his army, there was nothing there to threaten them.

6. Kinda flimsy, but but the way they are described. They are all described almost "warderesque", in lack of a better term. (ex. Ingtar, the Shienarian Heavy Horse soldier guy, says that stopping Stone Dogs charging is like trying to stop an avalance - even you all agree that Heavy Horse > Aiel in cotton if they charge at eachother). 

I dont agree that Cavalery owns Aiel, its to easy to say. Instead you should say something else, prepare a scenario and present it where cavalery owns infantery.

Besides I still dont think of Aiel as infantery. Just because they use their legs doesnt make them into it necessary, not in the strictess form. They are extremly adaptable, and one of their favourit tactics is running up on the flanks surrounding their quarry which is alot more similar to cavalery who cuts away at the flanks, even if they usually keep charging and cutting and charging and cutting. With lack of better terms, if you remember the riders in the last battle with Mat in Knife of Dreams. Where Tomanas leads the people on the horses to cut of the Taraboners and Amadicians who wants to kill Tuon. First they use their horsebow, then they engage in melee with the Taraboners/amadicians who turns to face them. Thats how i look at Aiel. The positive sides that being on horseback, can easily be neglected while running on your feet, since after all you got alot easier maneuvering. And compared to any man on horse, u can pretty much always fast hide behind Terrain, i doubt a charging horseman will suddenly start using his bow if he has one in full speed. There is also the chance it could turn into a matador vs bull fight lol.

Aiel doesnt stand in tight formations, unless its tactical favourable to them

Aiel doesnt have cities to defend, maybe their hold, but thats back in the waste and well... im pretty sure the only thing they care about there is the fields of food anyway and the lifestock.

Aiel arent idiots, especially their leaders arent idiots they will abuse their positive attributes. If they got an army sent after them, rather than facing them on a open field, i bet they will use tactics. Its more to war than those few hours where you might both meat each other in full force.

Ambushing, hit and running, killing of supplies etc etc.

After a point, ca middle of book 6, the Aiel are somewhat toned down, or the others (Younglings, Sanchean, TRB (Tow Rivers Bowmen, ect) are beefed up to be on their level.

Either that, or your Point of Views starts to mature, get more experienced and maybe get more responsibility? Pretty much the only person who got experience with Aiel before the end of book 3 is Lan anyway, and maybe some of the Shienar. That far we pretty much only had POV from the farm boys or the wondergirls.

And not only the POV get more experienced, the whole wetlands gets more experienced. The Aiel is still something new, and the few people who might have served in the Aiel war, over all i think its rather few when combining all the countries, is nowadays proberly very old. They arent used fighting them. Actually, they arent used fighting anything as advanced as the fights with Aiel becomes, the few that does happen is pretty much only with shaido anyway once Couladin is dead. And the Couladin fight was pretty much only Aiel vs Aiel.

Ex: Gawyn spotting an Aiel hiding in a bush before Dumais, Younglings cutting their way out of the fight, Sanchean at least giving the Shaido Aiel a fight, the Malden fight, the Tearians(?) outpacing the Aiel towards Illian, ect.

Dont quite remember the Tear highlords outpacing the Aiel to Illian, but i doubt that was a good thing.

The Seanchan is extremly experienced fighters, and they arent even that many yet. Not Seanchan people that is. Yet they manage what they do. And they use the power as a weapon, which the Shaido are very unused of doing + the Seanchan is yet to encounter a wise one who can channel before the Perrin meeting.

The Seanchan soldiers is far from the defenders of the stone soldiers, or any other soldiers except the borderlanders really. As said they are extremly well drilled, and they pretty much got the same disciplin as the Aiel warriors. Combining that with trained damane, some who been a weapon for hundreds of years and flying beasts as scouts, they are extremly potent. Honestly if they had brought over abit more soldiers, and Rand hadnt created the Ashamans, i doubt the Wetlands would had been able to stand a chance. Even with people like Ituralde and Mat. They conquer extremly fast.

 

 

 

 

Also i still dont agree about the Superhuman powers, thats why im argueing and trying to make my point. Im happy someone brought up a few more examples, but im not beating at them with my own arguements denying them all, just for the sake of it(regardless if my own arguements against them are good or not) Im replying to them because i dont agree, and well since noone brought up anything new to change my mind i keep disagreeing >.<

About the (quote](/quote] all the time, im not trying to turn into a Mr Ares. Im rather fresh to these forums, and alot of my replies are rather badly written and often poorly organized when i try to explain myself. And i dont always agree with Ares on the posts ive seen this far in this forum. But i agree on this particular matter, in my own way of spamming replys and argueing.

[elmis]

I like your reply Braun, even though I disagree on some points. ;)

 

As to the comparison with the Swedish Guards, the Defenders of the Stone are referred to as Tear's elite fighting force - their standing army so to speak (much like the Companions in Illian - where Tam got his training, and he seems to be a very capable soldier).

 

The part about the Shaido in Cairhien is more or less a direct quote from the book, it's from the chapter when Lan is quizzing Mat about the battle plans.

[Mutsumi]

I think the main point of notice about the conquest of stone of tear is that most of the defenders were woefully unprepared for the fight. Most of them were asleep, didn't expect the enemy to allready be in the heart of the stone and hadn't fought any aiel before. Not to mention that the aiel did have a little help from Rand snagging Callandor and all that. It has been a while since I read those chapters but IIRC the fight for the control of the stone wasn't a prolonged melee, rather the defenders pretty much gave up after their leader got whacked and Rand took Callandor. I mean a pretty large portion of the defenders were still alive  when the trollocks attacked and even afterwards so they couldn't have taken much of a beating from the aiel.

[balefired-ed2]

I can't say I loathe the Aiel, but I do agree with OP on several of his points, foremost being that an army consisting entirely of lightly armed skirmishers would have massive difficulties to overcome against a much more heavily armored force.

 

Secondly, I have a great deal of trouble seeing how the Aiel could manage to successfully and consistently be able to stand up to a heavy cavalry charge. Armed with only small leather bucklers and spears they neither have the armor to protect themselves from the weaponry that a heavy cavalry force would be using such as lances or longswords, nor would they be able to present a strong enough shield-wall that would deter horses from charging the formation which is the proven tactic and the reason that a seeming majority of wetland infantry are armed with pikes. Also many of the lightly armed and armored Aiel would simply be ridden down by the weight of the horses, as the prevailing heavy cavalry tactic is to simply ride over infantry. I am willing to concede this somewhat as we do not have sufficient description of wetland cavalry barding, but I am of the opinion that this would provide a large difficulty.

 

A side note, several people in this thread have mentioned the fact that warfare in the wetlands had become highly ritualized and specialized into a simple cavalry assault with pike holding the line. However, the Aiel style of warfare is just as specialized, if not more so, because of their inhospitable terrain. The use of armor in the Waste is not feasible due to the strain it would take on the wearer in an environ like that. The Aiel had to develop a specific kind of warfare that was sustainable and did so very well.

 

Finally, there is one large part of the Aiel War that does not sit well with me. Putting an army into the field requires a lot of supply and planning even if one wishes only a short operation. For the Aiel to have fought a protracted war of 3 years far away from their supply lines seems nigh on impossible. With the lack of wagons and pack animals that we are told about in descriptions of the Aiel would seem to leave foraging as the only option to supply such an army. With an army with a low figure of around 60,000 I have a hard time believing the Aiel able to undertake an invasion of that magnitude.

 

P.S.- This is what part of the alphabet would look like if you took out q and r.

[riigvroq]

and again everyone expects war to be like in the movies. two forces deploying on the ege of a large field and the infatry just standing waiting for the cavalery charge. i would belive the aiel would deploy where the wetland cavalery doesn't have that advantege. take away i initial charge and heavy cavalery loes almost all their advatages without gaining any.

 

considering what lan told rand about aiel warfare i would expect that they have a smaller force, 1/4, to lure the cavalery forward and then hit them in the flanks and rear when they are out of speed and far from the infatery. mat only defeated the shaido when using cavalery and infantery close together protecting each other.

 

 

[Tel Janin]

Secondly, I have a great deal of trouble seeing how the Aiel could manage to successfully and consistently be able to stand up to a heavy cavalry charge.

 

*Sigh...*  Because they don't even try to "stand up to a heavy cavalry charge."  Their mobility allows them to avoid the brunt of the charge altogether.  They may take casualties, but it won't be anything compared to what another infantry unit would take if they attempted to "stand up to a heavy cavalry charge."

 

As has been stated several times in this thread by myself and many others, the Aiel don't press battle when the conditions don't favor them, unless they have no alternative.  They've got the best recon, they're as mobile as light cavalry (perhaps more so, since they're less impeded by terrain), they can double as artillery, so, unless you can out-maneuver them they're not gonna offer battle if the conditions are unfavorable.  They're gonna redeploy and get you when the ground favors them and/or when you least expect it.

 

Battle is not always (and as a matter of fact rarely is) the neat little lines of troops firing at or fighting one another across an open field on a clear day.  That 'senario' is a Hollywood story.