Choedan Kal

[Thanatos]

So I just finished re-reading the cleansing of the taint at the end of WH.  It is stated that Nynaeve with the CK can channel more than all the sisters in the White Tower.  Assuming that Rand can channel even more saidin that Nynaeve can saidar, is it commonly accepted that Rand will reseal the bore with the use of them.  If the bore is resealed of course.

 

And another thing.....thoughts on something that has always bothered me.  With the immense strength that Rand has through use of the Choedan Kal, why has he never used it up to this point.  He has had them since tSR.  The only weakness of the CK is that any channeller will be able to sense where you are, but with the strength that Rand possesses with it, he can take anyone that comes at him.  He could destroy the whole darkfriend Black Tower with his power.  Judging by the Forsaken's reactions to how much saidin he could hold with them, he could probably take all of them as well.  Couldn't life have been much easier say, fighting the Seanchan with it, rather than the flawed Callandor? 

 

Just a couple of thoughts.

[MatsLuck]

He (Rand) states several times in his thoughts that he doesn't really trust himself with that much power. It's too seductive for him. And now with Lews getting stronger and being able to grab the source before him, I imagine he is going to be even more reluctant. Just a thought.

[Chang]

As far as using the Choedan Kal against the Seanchan/other enemies, my general impression was that the Choedan Kal was his metaphorical "ace in the hole".  He didn't necessarily want to reveal he had it before he used it in WH at the cleansing.  And also, seeing as how the statue key is rather large (isn't it around a foot tall?), I'd imagine that it's rather clunky to carry around/use in a fighting or a running battle.

 

And with your thoughts on Rands strength with the Choedan Kal, I'm not quite sure what the answer is.  Perhaps there's someone here that can properly answer your question. :)

[Krazikarl]

The Choedan Kal gives the user the power to completely destroy the world.  Trying to use that kind of power in a combat situation (where things are necessarily chaotic and unpredictable) is probably not the best choice unless you are absolutely desperate.

[Thor]

besides, lanfear's voice still freaked him out.

[Luckers]

Assuming that Rand can channel even more saidin that Nynaeve can saidar, is it commonly accepted that Rand will reseal the bore with the use of them.  If the bore is resealed of course.

 

Firstly no, the 'use of them' is impossible. The females choedan kal was destroyed in the cleansing.

 

Wheather the male alone could do such a thing remains unknown, byt based on commentary in the series it seems unlikely.

[Thor]

there's no reason why another access key can't be made, but might killa few circles again just like the eye did.

[Arath Faringal]

Access keys don't do much good when the sa'angreal they are supposed to link to has been destroyed as well.

[mb]

About using the Choedan Kal to reseal; like another poster told, the female one was melted and its key broken.

Not sure if there would be time enough to remake both the sa'angreal and key before they would be needed.  Not sure either if there are enough channelers that have the knowledge of how to make them nor if they are strong enough to remake them.

 

About Rand using the male key to destroy enemies; the points of the key's size and of it potentially destroying the world, those are good points.

Also, Rand seems to want to preserve life whenever possible.

If Rand used the key in that last attack instead of Callandor, he might have lost much more troops.

 

[Allisia Sedai]

As for why he waited so long to use them aside from being afraid of having that much power, if I recall correctly, the Choedan Kal were never tested and so whether or not they would be disastrous in use or not was of course unknown. For all the characters knew, the Choedan Kal could've destroyed the world if their power was tapped into.

[Thor]

Access keys don't do much good when the sa'angreal they are supposed to link to has been destroyed as well.

 

oh snap, forgot the thing melted.  bah incompetent aol aes sedai couldn't even make a fuse to prevent meltdown?

[Titan Orion]

Nynaeve couldnt handle the pace anymore, when she collapsed, thats what caused the female CK to melt I reckon. If Alivia had done it instead of Nynaeve I think the female CK would have survived, but if Nynaeve fought Cyndane Im not sure Nynaeve would have made it.

[Thor]

i'm pretty sure she would have been flattened.

[Luckers]

Nynaeve couldnt handle the pace anymore, when she collapsed, thats what caused the female CK to melt I reckon. If Alivia had done it instead of Nynaeve I think the female CK would have survived, but if Nynaeve fought Cyndane Im not sure Nynaeve would have made it.

The melting of the female Choedan Kal had nothing to do with strength. Rand pushed the male Choedan Kal far further than the female in terms of strength drawn.

 

The melting was caused by the use to which the female Choedan Kal was put--specifically, in forcing it to 'strain' saidin. Saidin and saidar cannot be mixed, that was the key behind the cleansing. Using saidar in the way he did he was able to condense it to the point that it forced the taint out, like wringing a chamois.

 

Saidar was the key in this. It was the 'wringer'. It exerted the force that created this effect. It was that strain which destroyed the female Choedan Kal--the strain of attempting to force saidar and saidin to mix.

 

As for your comment about Nynaeve facing Cyndane--no. Due to the angreal Nynaeve, like Alivia, would have been considerably stronger than Cyndane. Cyndane held her own through knowledge and skill. In that Alivia falls short--she may have hundreds of years of channeling experience, but none in the sort of one on one fighting that was occuring. Nynaeve on the other hand does. She also has Moghedian's training. I suspect she would have done better than Alivia.

[Thor]

you are seriously mistaken luckers, it is evident that nynaeve would not stand a chance against alivia, hence nynaeve would not have stood a chance against cyndane either.

[Luckers]

Oh and how precisely is any of that evident? Alivia is trained in battlefield violence and nothing else, how precisely would she be able to fight Nynaeve's superior knowledge of the power, and ter'angreal and angreal?

[Titan Orion]

Quote from: Titan Orion on Today at 01:27:45 AM

Nynaeve couldnt handle the pace anymore, when she collapsed, thats what caused the female CK to melt I reckon. If Alivia had done it instead of Nynaeve I think the female CK would have survived, but if Nynaeve fought Cyndane Im not sure Nynaeve would have made it.

 

The melting of the female Choedan Kal had nothing to do with strength. Rand pushed the male Choedan Kal far further than the female in terms of strength drawn.

 

The melting was caused by the use to which the female Choedan Kal was put--specifically, in forcing it to 'strain' saidin. Saidin and saidar cannot be mixed, that was the key behind the cleansing. Using saidar in the way he did he was able to condense it to the point that it forced the taint out, like wringing a chamois.

 

Saidar was the key in this. It was the 'wringer'. It exerted the force that created this effect. It was that strain which destroyed the female Choedan Kal--the strain of attempting to force saidar and saidin to mix.

 

Where in the books does it say that the female Choeden Kal was destroyed because of the pacing difference between the male and female? Nothing in the books hint to that that I can recall, although my memory isnt photographic. Could you tell us what evidence there is to back up that statement Luckers, because i seem to remember quite clearly that Nynaeve collapsed before it was finished. Am I wrong?

 

As for your comment about Nynaeve facing Cyndane--no. Due to the angreal Nynaeve, like Alivia, would have been considerably stronger than Cyndane. Cyndane held her own through knowledge and skill. In that Alivia falls short--she may have hundreds of years of channeling experience, but none in the sort of one on one fighting that was occuring. Nynaeve on the other hand does. She also has Moghedian's training. I suspect she would have done better than Alivia.

 

Alivia has had hundreds of years of training as a weapon, using the One Power in battle. Nynaeves training means little because Cyndane, as Lanfear, will have known the majority, if not all and more, of what Moghedien knows. Besides that, Nynaeve didnt even get that much in the way of battling out of Moghedien apart from inverting weaves which I just addressed; Lanfear will know about it also and be better at countering it. Knowledge doesnt mean everything, just like strength doesnt.

 

Oh and how precisely is any of that evident? Alivia is trained in battlefield violence and nothing else, how precisely would she be able to fight Nynaeve's superior knowledge of the power, and ter'angreal and angreal?

 

Since you are counting the knowledge Nynaeve has gained from Moghedien, we can count the knoweldge Alivia now has of the gear she used at the Cleansing. Secondly, you say that Alivia has only had battle experience and nothing else as if that would hamper her against Nynaeve in a battle. Nynaeves knowledge of Healing, weather/danger sense, and probably even T'A'R would mean nothing against Alivia in a battle; you cant heal yourself, her weather sense wouldnt make any difference, and Alivia wouldnt just stand by and let Nynaeve take her to T'A'R somehow and think an a'dam on Alivia. Everything Alivia knows would count in a battle against Nynaeve; from shielding-which she will know and be good at-to bog-standard destruction, Alivia would handle Nynaeve easily because of her knoweldeg in my opinion.

 

It isnt as simple as Alivia would beat Nynaeve so Cyndane would, its more that Cyndane is too good for either to stand a chance, regardless of whether or not Luckers and I agree on who has better one-on-one battle knowledge and experience. I still maintain that Alivia does, just as Luckers is free to stick to his own, but such questions are rarely answered clearly anyway. Alivia lost, thats all we need to know on the battle front.

[Luckers]

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Quote from: Titan Orion on Today at 01:27:45 AM

Nynaeve couldnt handle the pace anymore, when she collapsed, thats what caused the female CK to melt I reckon. If Alivia had done it instead of Nynaeve I think the female CK would have survived, but if Nynaeve fought Cyndane Im not sure Nynaeve would have made it.

 

The melting of the female Choedan Kal had nothing to do with strength. Rand pushed the male Choedan Kal far further than the female in terms of strength drawn.

 

The melting was caused by the use to which the female Choedan Kal was put--specifically, in forcing it to 'strain' saidin. Saidin and saidar cannot be mixed, that was the key behind the cleansing. Using saidar in the way he did he was able to condense it to the point that it forced the taint out, like wringing a chamois.

 

Saidar was the key in this. It was the 'wringer'. It exerted the force that created this effect. It was that strain which destroyed the female Choedan Kal--the strain of attempting to force saidar and saidin to mix.

 

Where in the books does it say that the female Choeden Kal was destroyed because of the pacing difference between the male and female? Nothing in the books hint to that that I can recall, although my memory isnt photographic. Could you tell us what evidence there is to back up that statement Luckers, because i seem to remember quite clearly that Nynaeve collapsed before it was finished. Am I wrong?

 

 

You are. Nynaeve slid off her seat moaning, and Cadsuane healed her. She did not collapse or fail in the channeling at any stage. Furthermore it is stated by the Aes Sedai Egwene sent that by far more saidin was used than saidar.

 

Ergo, the destruction of the female Choedan Kal did not happen because Nynaeve failed or collapsed, and it did not happen because too much saidar was drawn. That leaves only my explanation, unless you have an alternative.

 

Quote

As for your comment about Nynaeve facing Cyndane--no. Due to the angreal Nynaeve, like Alivia, would have been considerably stronger than Cyndane. Cyndane held her own through knowledge and skill. In that Alivia falls short--she may have hundreds of years of channeling experience, but none in the sort of one on one fighting that was occuring. Nynaeve on the other hand does. She also has Moghedian's training. I suspect she would have done better than Alivia.

 

Alivia has had hundreds of years of training as a weapon, using the One Power in battle. Nynaeves training means little because Cyndane, as Lanfear, will have known the majority, if not all and more, of what Moghedien knows. Besides that, Nynaeve didnt even get that much in the way of battling out of Moghedien apart from inverting weaves which I just addressed; Lanfear will know about it also and be better at countering it. Knowledge doesnt mean everything, just like strength doesnt.

 

 

Alivia had hundreds of years training as a weapon, using a the One Power in battle. Exactly. Now how would that have helped her in this duel?

 

Knowledge meant everything in this encounter. Due to the angreal Alivia (or Nyanave) would have been more than twice as strong as Cyndane. Either one would also have had the benefits of ter'angreals protection. Cyndane in effect only survived because her knowledge of the power was vastly superior to Alivia's. Nynaeve knew a lot more than Alivia, and thus would have stood a better chance than Alivia in that fight.

 

A few specific points.

 

Besides that, Nynaeve didnt even get that much in the way of battling out of Moghedien apart from inverting weaves which I just addressed

 

And what did Cyndane state to be her major advantage over Alivia? Reversing Weaves. Besides Nynave's experience is significant here too--in fighting other channelers. Simply having survive other such confrontations stands in her stead, and in knowledge of what is possibly--her weaving in general is more sophisticated than Alivia's.

 

Lanfear will know about it also and be better at countering it.

 

Wait... what? Be better at countering it? Better than what? Countering what Alivia did?

 

Lanfear survived her fight with Alivia (who's angreal and ter'angreal set her far above Cyndane) because of her superior knowledge. Are you really suggesting that Nynaeve having some of the knowledge would mean that Cyndane would have defeated her more easily?

 

Of course Lanfear knows it. The point in this is that Alivia did not. Nynaeve did--and by your logic would thus be better at countering it. The difference between Alivia and Nynaeve in this fight is in what they did, not what Cyndane would have done. She would have used all her knowledge irreguardless.

 

Since you are counting the knowledge Nynaeve has gained from Moghedien, we can count the knoweldge Alivia now has of the gear she used at the Cleansing.

 

What does that mean? What knowledge has Alivia gained from using those ter'angreal? Nynaeve (or rather Cadsuane) gave her that information--and Nynaeve has all of it already. And how does this speak to Alivia doing better than Nynaeve?

 

Secondly, you say that Alivia has only had battle experience and nothing else as if that would hamper her against Nynaeve in a battle. Nynaeves knowledge of Healing, weather/danger sense, and probably even T'A'R would mean nothing against Alivia in a battle; you cant heal yourself, her weather sense wouldnt make any difference, and Alivia wouldnt just stand by and let Nynaeve take her to T'A'R somehow and think an a'dam on Alivia. Everything Alivia knows would count in a battle against Nynaeve; from shielding-which she will know and be good at-to bog-standard destruction, Alivia would handle Nynaeve easily because of her knoweldeg in my opinion.

 

You're ignoring that Nynaeve has fought channelers in duels before--real channelers too, not the scared-witless-half-convinced-she-should-be-leashed wilders Alivia might have dealt with. Nothing to do with her talents with healing or TAR--im speaking of her talents with fighting. You create a straw man--and yes, i do utterly maintain that alivia's limited knowledge and limited experience would make Nynave more than her match.

 

It isnt as simple as Alivia would beat Nynaeve so Cyndane would, its more that Cyndane is too good for either to stand a chance, regardless of whether or not Luckers and I agree on who has better one-on-one battle knowledge and experience. I still maintain that Alivia does, just as Luckers is free to stick to his own, but such questions are rarely answered clearly anyway. Alivia lost, thats all we need to know on the battle front.

 

Alivia did not lose. Her purpose was to keep the Forsaken away from Rand, she sustained an injury in doing so, yet she did so nonetheless. My point is only that Nynaeve would have done better, not that Alivia did not succeed in her own ways.

 

As for your comment there--you maintain Alivia has one on one battle knowledge and experience? I did not realise this, i thought you were simply claiming that Alivia's greater strength meant she did better. Would you please show your basis for such a statement? Alivia was a damane. Damane were use either as one weapon in hundreds in an army, or to deal with untrained marath'damane--again, usually in groups. Where would Alivia have gained these skills in one on one fighting?

[Thor]

i maintain that alivia didn't drive cyndane off.  it always felt to me that the forsaken retreated from battle once the cleansing process was done, hence they simply didnt' have any reason to stay any longer, especially knowing that rand might possibly blow up everything around him.

 

and you are deluded if you think training as a weapon does not help in a duel.  in hundreds of years do you think alivia would not have had to hunt down wilders in seanchan?  do you not think that many of these wilders have special talents that coudl have been very nasty in duels also?  your dislike of the seanchan culture clouds your judgement of their abilities.

[lordofsoup]

the only reason that Alivia survived was because of the ter'angreal.  Nyaeve is as good as Moggy, who with an angreal could easily defeat Lanfear.  alivia's skills are all about killing as many men as possible, where nynaeve is much more knowledgable in fighting duels.  Moggy may not be the most powerful forsaken, but the fact that she was beaten twice means that Nynaeve is a powerful channeler

[Thor]

first of all moghedien never fought seriously, if she had fought everytime the way she recklessly shot a baelfire across the middle of a river for all to see, nynaeve would have been destroyed completely.

 

and furthermore, there is no indication to say that moghedian coudl have defeated lanfear if she had an angreal.

[Krazikarl]

Alivia is a killing specialist.  Everybody notes that she is great at weaves used for fighting and not much else - she is simply a more talented fighter.  Nynaeve is not a killing specialist.  Her skills lie in being a very strong healer.  Given those specialities, the fact that Alivia is substantially stronger than Nynaeve, and that Alivia is much more experienced in fighting (some of which had to have been channeler vs channeler in Seanchan), I have to think that Alivia did much better than Nynaeve could have.

 

I'm also not at all convinced that Nynaeve got a vast store of fighting knowledge from Moghedian.  First off, Moghedian was never much of a fighter, so its not clear to me that she had all that much knowledge to give.  Secondly, Moghedian was very stubborn about giving out much.  Plus, you dont see the girls asking that much stuff about fighting weaves - they are mostly interested in other stuff.  This is especially true of Nynaeve who was much more interested in knowledge about weaves related to things that arent channeling.

 

I just cant believe that in that scenario that Nynaeve learned so much more about fighting to overcome Alivia massive experience advantage and sizable strength advantage.

[Allisia Sedai]

Well I think one issue you may be overlooking, Krazikarl, is that there's more to fighting than just launching attacks. The fact of the matter is that Alivia in all likelihood only learned how to attack and kill, not to defend, block weaves, slice weaves, anything of that sort. She likely doesn't even know how to shield someone, much less counter an oncoming attack. Alivia's killing abilities and Strength in the Power aren't to be overlooked, of course, but it's apparent superior knowledge in more areas than just how to kill make a Channeler just that, superior. Nynaeve probably could have held her own against Cyndane much better than Alivia did (not to say Alivia did a bad job, because she didn't) for the mere fact that Nynaeve knows how to do each of those things listed above. She could, if aided by an angreal, potentially shield Cyndane, and more effectively counter anything Cyndane sent her way. When it comes to things like duels, there's by far more than just making the earth explode or striking down someone with lightning. Powerful weaves with intent for harm mean nothing if they're just sliced.

[a5m]

I always thought the female Choedan Kal melted since it was buried except for the hand. The male Choedan Kal is currently exposed to the air. Of course, the reason could have been more complicated than that.

[Krazikarl]

Well I think one issue you may be overlooking, Krazikarl, is that there's more to fighting than just launching attacks. The fact of the matter is that Alivia in all likelihood only learned how to attack and kill, not to defend, block weaves, slice weaves, anything of that sort. She likely doesn't even know how to shield someone, much less counter an oncoming attack. Alivia's killing abilities and Strength in the Power aren't to be overlooked, of course, but it's apparent superior knowledge in more areas than just how to kill make a Channeler just that, superior. Nynaeve probably could have held her own against Cyndane much better than Alivia did (not to say Alivia did a bad job, because she didn't) for the mere fact that Nynaeve knows how to do each of those things listed above. She could, if aided by an angreal, potentially shield Cyndane, and more effectively counter anything Cyndane sent her way. When it comes to things like duels, there's by far more than just making the earth explode or striking down someone with lightning. Powerful weaves with intent for harm mean nothing if they're just sliced.

 

I dont agree with that at all.  Lets face it - the Seanchan are MUCH more experienced in fighting battles with the power than Aes Sedai, so why would their damane be completely ignorant of how to defend a basic attack.  Why would one of their best battle damane not know basic fighting orientated techniques?  That just doesnt make much sense to me - their fighting skills should NOT be crude compared to the Aes Sedai given their vast experience advantage.

 

Now shielding might be another matter (I'm not sure if they actually try and shield murath'damane), but its always been my impression that shielding another channeler is much more difficult in a fight, so I dont see either Nynaeve or Alivia shielding Lanfear/Cyndane, so thats not a big part of the equation for me.  Simlarily I dont dont see Cyndane even trying to shield an angreal wearing channeler as powerful as Nynaeve or Alivia if they are actually holding saidar already.