Moriane's Role in the New Books

[Mr Ares]

Doesn't mean she is lying - she could put two and two together and tell the truth. And her lying makes the issue of why Rand is hearing LTT no clearer. It raises no questions, provides no answers.

She may be telling the truth, although didn't the madness caused by the taint happen after she was sealed up?

The Taint did happen after Semi was sealed in the Bore, but that isn't important. The taint doesn't cause a specific kind of madness, we see different kinds. So Graendal could well have encountered this rare form of madness before the Taint.

I would think the reaction of the people around rand when she said it gave the best answer as too the question as why say it, her whole persona radiates this type of action.

True or not, she could say it to harm Rand. It is as good a reason either way, and doesn't tell us anything about whether she lied or not. Only why she would lie if she did.

 

That argument makes no sense. We know Rand is LTT reborn, but that is no reason why he should hear the other man's voice. After all, everyone is someone reborn, but most people don't hear the voices of their past incarnations. Even the other Hero in the series, Birgitte, doesn't fit what we see in Rand - she has memories of her other lives, and they fade as time goes by, they don't manifest as the voices and personalities of Birgitte's past.

We have no evidence of what can happen to say any different,maybe the manner of LTT death could be some aspect of why he manifested within Rand? your argument about Birgitte is flawed since she wasn't reborn, so has no basis for comparison. The Dragon Reborn isn't just anyone, so can't be compared with everyone.

We have no reason to believe the Dragon Reborn is different in this way, no reason to believe LTT had the voice of the Dragon before him in his mind. Nor evidence to suggest the same is true of any other Hero. So, why Rand? We are told that it is a rare form of madness, and he was exposed to something that causes madness. He shows signs of mental illness even aside from LTT.

[DukeBob]

LTT on occasion mentioned a person in his head. (courtesy of wotfaq)

 

[WH: Prologue, Snow, 80]:

 

    "I thought I could build, Lews Therin murmured in his head. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers."

WH: 22, Out of Thin Air, 436-437]:

 

    "You destroyed them already, Lews Therin whispered in his head. Now you have someone else to destroy, and not beforetime. How many will we three kill before the end, I wonder."

 

This reveals at least one other DR, ta'veren, male channeler who experienced voices. LTT could be how Semi knows about the voices. There is no indication whether the taint or the role created the voices. It could be that being the DR was the catalyst that allowed the taint to make the link between LTT, Rand and the third man.

 

[Treblkickd]

Lots of good discussion in this thread and I've enjoyed reading it.  Also it has reminded me of one question that's popped into my head from time to time.  The question being, are Severing and Burning Out the same thing?  Or more precisely, are the effects of them the same?  We know that Severing can be healed, but is it possible that being Burned Out cannot be healed?

 

The answer here is probably relevant to working out what exactly happened with Moiraine and Lanfear, but it also impacts what could be in the cards for Satelle Anan (and I'm not sure if we have any other majorish characters running around who are burned out).

 

Anyway, based on my (possibly faulty) memory of what's been mentioned in the past, I have the recollection that Stilling/Severing means that ones connection to the TS is cutoff, though that person can still sort of feel the presence/existence of the TS as a tantalizing thing that drives them nuts.  And similarly I have the impression that Burning Out removes even a person's ability to perceive that the TS is still out there at all (I guess like being in a Stedding).  But as I said I'm not so sure about where I got these impressions and recollections from. I'd be interested to hear what other folks think.

[a pale tanned lover]

The Taint did happen after Semi was sealed in the Bore, but that isn't important. The taint doesn't cause a specific kind of madness, we see different kinds. So Graendal could well have encountered this rare form of madness before the Taint./quote]

 

I agree the taint's madness varies from person to person. Graendal was an expert in this field but like many experts can be wrong, also your crediting her diagnosis of Rand to what she has encountered before, which means she would have had to be able to tell if a person was hearing voices in their head or if they were hearing real voices in their head from a person who had lived in another age. I think your over valuing her ability, how would she have been able to know this for a fact before?

Quote

I would think the reaction of the people around rand when she said it gave the best answer as too the question as why say it, her whole persona radiates this type of action.

True or not, she could say it to harm Rand. It is as good a reason either way, and doesn't tell us anything about whether she lied or not. Only why she would lie if she did./quote]

 

Im sure you've heard all the different arguments before, so can you answer me this, what benefit does the shadow gain from telling the truth? Surely if he was going that mad then why warn your enemies, to help? cant see the DO thanking her for giving people a heads up.

 

Yes he does show other signs of mental illness, still doesn't prove that LTT in his head is part of that illness, maybe having LTT in his head has stopped him from going mad?

 

 

 

[Phariah]

Ok i agree with what someone said about Lanfear being burntout by the having the angreal being pulled off my Moiraine before falling into the doorway seeing as it would be a buffer for pulling more saidar an as it was taken off while she was maxxed out she would burnout an possibly die. nothing in that states Moiraine would be stilld/severd.

 

Matt saves Moiraine an she will marry Thom an be a catalyst for breaking thru to Rand , i feel she would aid Cadsune in that no doubt.

[Mr Ares]

LTT on occasion mentioned a person in his head.

Moridin. Since the balefire link in SL.

 

The question being, are Severing and Burning Out the same thing?

Yes. Severing was the term used in the AoL, and the only one they used so far as we know.

is it possible that being Burned Out cannot be healed?

Possible, perhaps, but not very likely. The evidence suggests that it has already been Healed, in fact.

 

I think your over valuing her ability, how would she have been able to know this for a fact before?

Comparison with historical records? It was stated to be a rare form of madness, remember.

 

Im sure you've heard all the different arguments before, so can you answer me this, what benefit does the shadow gain from telling the truth?

The same as they get from lying. Exactly the same. If she told the truth, they really have very little chance of reintegrating the two personalities.

 

Ok i agree with what someone said about Lanfear being burntout by the having the angreal being pulled off my Moiraine before falling into the doorway seeing as it would be a buffer for pulling more saidar an as it was taken off while she was maxxed out she would burnout an possibly die.

But you don't need to be holding an angreal in order to use it, so why would having it taken away sever her?

nothing in that states Moiraine would be stilld/severd.

No, but ter'angreal are dangerous things, and this one was violently malfaunctioning. It makes a lot of sense that they would be under the circumstances. And she was and is held by the Finns. Rand simply channeled his fire sword and they shied away - so why doesn't Moiraine do the same?

[Phariah]

OK show me examples of channelers using angreal an sa'angreal w/out touching them or having on thier person ( Rand had to for his swordman an Moiraine for her little statue an the turtle pin Elayne has needed to be on her )

 

well for one she has no doorway anymore ::)

and for another who is to say she didnt try an just exhausted herself ( again she has no way out)

also the Finn gave Matt a ter'angreal that stops saidar from touching him ..so what else do the Finn have in thier pantry to mess with channelers?

also that doorway led to the foxes an they don't seem to be as wimpy as the snakes ( wonder if the startd to skin Moiraine yet ? hmm...)

[Mr Ares]

OK show me examples of channelers using angreal an sa'angreal w/out touching them or having on thier person

"One does not have to actually touch an angreal to draw the One Power through it. (TFoH,Ch21)" http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/true_source/angreal.html The books are quite clear on the matter.

 

well for one she has no doorway anymore

ToG.

also the Finn gave Matt a ter'angreal that stops saidar from touching him ..so what else do the Finn have in thier pantry to mess with channelers?

It is to stop both sides of the Source touching him. And they didn't stop Rand using the Power. So why would they have been so much more effective against Moiraine?

[Phariah]

Ya ok so touching isnt needed but still possession must be ( Rand an Asmo split the power from the CK access key ) so i would say u couldnt use an angreal while its across a room , in another country or such because of proximity an if possession didnt matter why would Moiraine claw it away from Lanfears hand's? wouldn't she see that as useless?

 

um.. i never seen anything that said it stopped both sides of the power  seeing as  Rahvin nuked him w/ lightning

hmm... comparing Rand ( the fact they were not trying to fight him but force him out since him an Matt were both in an was causing some technical problems as Moiraine points out when she  leaves the snakey people after them ) with an active doorway an Moiraine ( dropping in fighting a forsaken , destroying the doorway thus probably pissing off the foxes , also she was injured already an lookin kinda worn thus being easy meat ) oh ya no active doorway i cant compare sowwy :-X

oh ya Bridgette explains how to enter ToG no where does it say Moiraine knows anything about it so u can nix the tower to leave

 

[Phariah]

Bah never mind about Matts angreal from stopping male channeling just rembered about Arangar channeling at him in Salidar during the dance :-[

[Hybrid]

Mat's terangreal stops weaves themselves from affecting him.  It does not stop the result of the weaves.  All Rahvin had to do was direct a lightning storm over Caemlyn - the lightning was what hurt Mat.  Aran'gar, on the other hand, tried a more direct approach, probably some sort of judgement-impairing weave like minor Compulsion.  Since that requires the weave to touch the subject, Mat was unaffected.

[mb]

Lews Therin a symptom of the taint?

Yes. Rand has the voice, the personality, the memories of a dead man in his head and they shouldn't be there. We have been told this is a rare form of madness, we have been told the taint causes madness.

Rand having Lews Therin's personality, that seems doubtful; there seems a significant difference between their personalities.  Main difference is that Lews Therin is suicidal and Rand is not.

The Taint I think cannot explain the ability to draw (do artwork) nor Lews Therin at times gaining control.

 

[Redstone Doorway]

OK show me examples of channelers using angreal an sa'angreal w/out touching them or having on thier person

"One does not have to actually touch an angreal to draw the One Power through it. (TFoH,Ch21)" http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/true_source/angreal.html The books are quite clear on the matter.

Do they say how close one has to be? I always thought that more than a couple of inches would be too far.

 

(Recalling the scene near Cairhien in tGH, the Choeden Kal could be an exception to that. But obviously there is some distance limit, as evidenced by the need for access keys. And when Rand fought Asmodean, I’m quite sure the book implied that if one of them managed to gain physical possession, it would have ended the battle.)

 

Perhaps Lanfear was indeed within her distance limit, but perhaps someone who is touching an angreal can pull control from someone who is not. (Certainly, if pulling the angreal away wouldn’t have accomplished anything, why would Moiraine have tried to do it?)

 

 

well for one she has no doorway anymore

ToG.

Presumably there are differences between the Tower and the doorways. We can’t say that one of those differences isn’t the way they treat the Warder bond; for example, the “path” between worlds created by the doorways is always open for people to go through, while that due to the Tower doesn’t seem to be.

 

I also seem to recall a theory that Moiraine severed the bond herself as she fell through the doorway?

 

 

also the Finn gave Matt a ter'angreal that stops saidar from touching him ..so what else do the Finn have in thier pantry to mess with channelers?

It is to stop both sides of the Source touching him. And they didn't stop Rand using the Power. So why would they have been so much more effective against Moiraine?

We barely know anything about them. All we know is that one person channelled and frightened them with fire and subsequently got out, and another channeller went in and didn’t come back out (having been somehow overcome). That doesn’t necessarily mean that the second person was incapable of channelling; it’s just a possibility.

 

(Maybe Rand’s being ta’veren protected him. Or maybe the Finns are bound by the agreement to let someone free once questions have already been answered. Or maybe the Aelfinn and Eelfinn are different. Etcetera.)

 

 

The Taint I think cannot explain the ability to draw nor Lews Therin at times gaining control.

It can explain the existence of the link between Rand and Lews Therin, of which a consequence could be Lews Therin’s ability to gain control; and his ability to draw the Power is just a corollary of that.

 

(Or rather, since Rand and LTT are the same person, or at least two aspects of the same soul, it can explain the lack of integration between said aspects, with the same result).

 

[Owners.Inc]

Mat's terangreal stops weaves themselves from affecting him.  It does not stop the result of the weaves.  All Rahvin had to do was direct a lightning storm over Caemlyn - the lightning was what hurt Mat.  Aran'gar, on the other hand, tried a more direct approach, probably some sort of judgement-impairing weave like minor Compulsion.  Since that requires the weave to touch the subject, Mat was unaffected.

 

By that you mean, if someone used the power to pick up a rock and throw it at him, he'd get hit? I think that's true. But about the lightning, aren't the lightning bolts themselves weaves? If not how can the channelers (Egwene, Avi, Rand) direct them so specifically?

[mb]

The Taint I think cannot explain the ability to draw nor Lews Therin at times gaining control.

It can explain the existence of the link between Rand and Lews Therin, of which a consequence could be Lews Therin’s ability to gain control; and his ability to draw the Power is just a corollary of that.

 

(Or rather, since Rand and LTT are the same person, or at least two aspects of the same soul, it can explain the lack of integration between said aspects, with the same result).

by ability to draw I meant ability to do artwork, not the ability to draw the One Power.  A POV of Rand in Far Madding tells about this.

Like I speculated in a past thread, I think Lews Therin like merged with Rand shortly after Rand was born.

This is the thread:

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,41073.0.html

 

[Mr Ares]

Ya ok so touching isnt needed but still possession must be

You need to know where it is in relation to you, IIRC. Also, it should be noted that angreal generally come with safety features - one cannot overdraw - so it is entirely possible that if you take take away someone's angreal, you would just take away the extra Power they were holding, or make them lose the Source and have to grab it again, rather than burning her out.

 

no active doorway

The Aelfinn doorway, the Tower. There are two. As for the Power, fire to blind. That's what Rand did. If Moiraine did the same they could hardly hold her.

 

Rand having Lews Therin's personality, that seems doubtful; there seems a significant difference between their personalities.

So who is that other guy in Rand's head? The guy with the completely different personality? That guy who keeps moaning about Ilyena.

The Taint I think cannot explain the ability to draw (do artwork) nor Lews Therin at times gaining control.

Taint causes madness, this is a rare form of madness. Explained.

 

We can’t say that one of those differences isn’t the way they treat the Warder bond

But we have no reason to believe it would be, or that there needs to be an "open path" between the worlds. Quite the reverse, as Verin disappeared from the world for months with her Warder suffereing to ill effects beyond worry.

 

I also seem to recall a theory that Moiraine severed the bond herself as she fell through the doorway?

She didn't.

 

We barely know anything about them. All we know is that one person channelled and frightened them with fire and subsequently got out, and another channeller went in and didn’t come back out (having been somehow overcome). That doesn’t necessarily mean that the second person was incapable of channelling; it’s just a possibility.

We know courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind. And we know what channeling fire did for Rand. If Moiraine could channel, she could do the same. Now, unless we start inventing stuff, what we know is that a channeler should be capable of holding the Finns of with fire, that she should be able to escape through one of the remaining exits, and that we know of only two things that could sever a Warder bond and she isn't dead. If she was burnt out, she would be unable to channel, so unable to escape, and her bond would be severed. Simple.

 

By that you mean, if someone used the power to pick up a rock and throw it at him, he'd get hit?

Exactly.

But about the lightning, aren't the lightning bolts themselves weaves?

No. Just things moved by the Power. Principle is the same, scale is different.

[Redstone Doorway]

We can’t say that one of those differences isn’t the way they treat the Warder bond

But we have no reason to believe it would be, or that there needs to be an "open path" between the worlds. Quite the reverse, as Verin disappeared from the world for months with her Warder suffereing to ill effects beyond worry.

No, but we know that differences exist; and there would be more differences between Finnland and the Portal Stone worlds. I’m just saying that it is plausible that this could have broken the bond. 

 

I also seem to recall a theory that Moiraine severed the bond herself as she fell through the doorway?

She didn't.

I didn’t say she did; I was just wondering if it could be proven that she didn’t, because that’s another thing that can break a Warder bond.

 

We know courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind. And we know what channeling fire did for Rand. If Moiraine could channel, she could do the same.

Unless she didn’t know about their weakness to fire, unless she decided to let herself be captured, unless the Eelfinn have ter’angreal that the Aelfinn don’t...Etcetera.

 

Now, unless we start inventing stuff

I’m inventing possible outcomes of a situation which we know already happened. You can’t say it’s not plausible that the Finns are forbidden from interfering with someone’s leaving once the agreement has already been fulfilled; or that they are forbidden from interfering with a ta’veren; and so on.

 

what we know is that a channeler should be capable of holding the Finns of with fire

Even if she did, she would have eventually needed to sleep. You are suggesting that it is utterly impossible for a non-channeler (even if they are non-channelers) to overcome and capture a channeler. Not even considering the fact that we’re in a world where the normal rules don’t seem to apply.

 

Also, at some level you seem to recognize this yourself, as evidenced by use of the word “should” – indeed, she should have been able to, but we don’t know that she could have or even would have, were she not stilled.

 

 

that she should be able to escape through one of the remaining exits

We know that the Tower is hard to leave through. We don’t even know if she could have found it or the other doorway once in Finnland. 

 

(I would actually suggest that in this case, even saying “should” is going too far. Possible, yes, but not necessarily even likely.)

 

and that we know of only two things that could sever a Warder bond and she isn't dead.

As you pointed out earlier, a ter’angreal was violently malfunctioning. Who knows what it could have done?

 

If she was burnt out, she would be unable to channel, so unable to escape, and her bond would be severed. Simple.

I agree; that’s a plausible alternative, perhaps even the most plausible. But we don’t know it for fact.

 

Again (copied from above):

We barely know anything about them. All we know is that one person channelled and frightened them with fire and subsequently got out, and another channeller went in and didn’t come back out (having been somehow overcome). That doesn’t necessarily mean that the second person was incapable of channelling; it’s just a possibility.

 

 

And by the way, what about the point that Moiraine was trying to pull the angreal away from Lanfear? If that was how she was stilled, she wasn’t necessarily stilled by falling through the door.

 

 

 

by ability to draw I meant ability to do artwork, not the ability to draw the One Power.  A POV of Rand in Far Madding tells of this.

Ah, I see. However, the idea is still the same. The Taint causes a loss of integration between the two personalities (I don’t like using the term “madness,” since that implies impaired judgement), and the personalities can then have crossover of thoughts, knowledge, abilities, etc.

 

By the way (if you’re not offended by me trying to help you improve your English), I’ve seen you use the word “tell”/“tells” a number of times – in the present tense, this word is generally only used as “am/are/is telling” (in situations when one of those is appropriate). The form “tell(s) of” (except in the past tense) is most commonly used only when talking about the fantastic (and is almost never followed by a pronoun).

 

    “I am telling my neighbour that he needs to paint his fence” – good

    “I am telling my neighbour of his need to paint his fence” – somewhat awkward

    “Thom’s story tells of the Great Hunt of the Horn” – good

 

I’m not sure if I explained that well (or if I’m exactly correct for all cases), but I tried. :) Now, for that particular sentence, “A POV of Rand in Far Madding tells of this,” something like “We are told of this during a POV of Rand in Far Madding” (note that I switched to past tense) or “This is shown during one of Rand’s POVs in Far Madding” would probably be better.

 

(Also note that I switched to “one of Rand’s POVs” from “a POV of Rand” in the second case. The form “of ___” to indicate possession is almost never used with a person’s name.)

 

Edit: Of course, I’m sure you know that there are exceptions to everything. For example, “tell(s) of” is also good in some cases where the speaker is trying to be a bit dramatic; but I would say that “tell(s) (him) about” or “tell(s) (him) that” are generally safer.

 

And I think I should also mention that “tell(s)” is usually used with a pronoun or noun between the “tell(s)” and the “about”/“that”/“of”, with that pronoun or noun indicating who is being told – except in the case of the fantastic, as mentioned above, when you don’t need that word – but in other cases, if you can’t insert that word, it’s probably a good indication that another construction will be better.

 

I could probably continue with more details, but I think that that’s all that’s relevant.

 

[Hybrid]

Mat's terangreal stops weaves themselves from affecting him.  It does not stop the result of the weaves.  All Rahvin had to do was direct a lightning storm over Caemlyn - the lightning was what hurt Mat.  Aran'gar, on the other hand, tried a more direct approach, probably some sort of judgement-impairing weave like minor Compulsion.  Since that requires the weave to touch the subject, Mat was unaffected.

 

By that you mean, if someone used the power to pick up a rock and throw it at him, he'd get hit? I think that's true. But about the lightning, aren't the lightning bolts themselves weaves? If not how can the channelers (Egwene, Avi, Rand) direct them so specifically?

 

Mat's amulet blocks both Saidin and Saidar. Jordan answered this one straight-out when asked. He pointed out that the amulet only blocks actual weavings of the One Power, not the physical effects that could be caused by a weaving. For example, Elayne was able to use the OP to hurl a rock at Mat. Rahvin was able to create a bolt of lightning which struck Mat. (Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a phrophecy about living, dying, and then living again.)

Also, for those of you who still consider the hanging at Rhuidean to fulfill the dying then living prophecy for Mat, read the underlined part.

[Owners.Inc]

I'm still a little hazy on the lightning weaves thing. If the lightning bolts aren't weaves in themselves, how are the channelers able to direct them so precisely? And wouldn't that mean that all the channelers are doing is changing the weather?

 

That said, there doesn't seem to be a much better explanation to why Mat got blasted all the way to the big Gambler's Den in the sky...

[fikkie77]

If I throw a ball at you with the One Power, I create air in such a way, that the ball comes at you. You don't get hit by the weave of air.

The same happens with creating and directing lightning bolts. They are created and pushed in a direction by the One Power (i assume with fire and possibly air), but you don't get hit by the weaves themselves.

[Mr Ares]

I’m just saying that it is plausible that this could have broken the bond.

But utterly unsupported. I'm a fan of evidence.

 

I was just wondering if it could be proven that she didn’t

It is possible, according to RJ, for an AS to dissolve the Warder bond, but we know Moiraine didn't do it. It requires physical contact, time, concentration, none of which Moiraine had, and it prevents the Warder suffereing the negative effects of a bond snapping, which we know Lan suffered.

 

Unless she didn’t know about their weakness to fire

They ask about fire. You don't think she might try it?

unless she decided to let herself be captured, unless the Eelfinn have ter’angreal that the Aelfinn don’t...Etcetera.

Unless she turns into a magic mile high gerbil who can't fit through the Doorway, etc., etc. Crackpot.

 

I’m inventing

You don't need to. We have an answer supported by evidence, that requires no invention at all. In the absence of a solution, invention is fine, but when we have one why bother? Occam's Razor.

 

Even if she did, she would have eventually needed to sleep.

Tie it off.

You are suggesting that it is utterly impossible for a non-channeler (even if they are non-channelers) to overcome and capture a channeler.

I'm suggesting that capturing someone when they're blinding you is a lot bloody harder than when you can see.

 

As you pointed out earlier, a ter’angreal was violently malfunctioning. Who knows what it could have done?

According to the books, it could burn her out. Ter'angreal have been known to do that when mishandled.

 

I agree; that’s a plausible alternative, perhaps even the most plausible. But we don’t know it for fact.

We know it for the only solution which isn't made up stuff and wishful thinking.

 

I don’t like using the term “madness,”

Even though it's the one the books use.

 

If the lightning bolts aren't weaves in themselves, how are the channelers able to direct them so precisely?

I've seen a couple of explanations of this. One involved polarising the ground under the feet of the target, so the lightning would jump to that point.

[Kryshah]

In the absence of a solution, invention is fine, but when we have one why bother?

  I will grant you that all of the evidence given definately points to your conclusions, but would you be willing to accept the idea that the evidence given is a miniscule amount of the potential total evidence that may be given by the end of the series?  I'm sure that there are thousands of variables that we havn't thought of, or been privy to in the series.  Such as the possibility of an AS cutting the warder bond without all of the time, preparation and physical contact.  Perhaps it's possible to cut the bond without all the work, if you don't mind creating the snap that the warder feels.  Perhaps she isn't a captive at all, but a guest of the Fins.  I'll admit, that I could be missing many facts that you would be more than happy to fill in for me.  I agree that you're postulate is the most concise and well supported, but that doesn't mean that it's the only one.  A look at the history of the sciences can give you many examples of how foolish people look for producing entire theories based on a small amount of evidence.  Early chemists believed that the world contained only four or five elements (ironically, the very elements that AS channel.) Biologists once believed in spontaneous generation etc.  Just because the current evidence points in one direction doesn't mean that you should bet all of your money on that conclusion.

 

Occam's Razor..

  Excellent point.  But also consider Schrödinger's cat

 

We know it for the only solution which isn't made up stuff and wishful thinking.

  I certainly hope that you havn't lost touch with the fact that we're discussing a fictional story.  It is all "made up stuff" and "wishful thinking."

 

 

[Hybrid]

I certainly hope that you havn't lost touch with the fact that we're discussing a fictional story.  It is all "made up stuff" and "wishful thinking."

The events of the series are not "made up stuff" and "wishfull thinking" within the context of the series.  Whereas fan speculation, within the context of the series, is always "made up stuff" and often "wishful thinking."

[Kryshah]

I certainly hope that you havn't lost touch with the fact that we're discussing a fictional story.  It is all "made up stuff" and "wishful thinking."

The events of the series are not "made up stuff" and "wishfull thinking" within the context of the series.  Whereas fan speculation, within the context of the series, is always "made up stuff" and often "wishful thinking."

 

Fair enough

[Kozma37]

i just thought of this as i was reading through this post.

 

In the later books we know that Ishamael is thinking that these women/Aes Sedai achieved something great in this new age, healing severing. I hope i remember this correctly but i a pretty sure that around this time when RJ shows us that Idhamael and possibly the dark side know about Healing stilling Cyndane pops up. A person who is very much like Lanfear(or so we are led to believe by other DO minions :-\) but no one really believes she is Lanfear because Cyndane is weaker then Lanfear. However if Ishamael only found ou tthat Aes Sedai can heal, then i am led to believe he doesnt know about Aha'Man healing stilling also. So, what do we know about women healing other stilled women? When Nynaeve healed Siuan and Leane, both Aes Sedai werent as strong in the OP as before being stileld and initially healed.

 

All this i think point to Moirane being stiled and alive. Mat will give one of his eyes for her and she wont be grateful at all.  :-X

 

Rand cant win the LB without the help of her and he wont win it without mat ether soo Moirane will have some sureel knowledge that will help a lot, or maybe she'll make Rand cry like a baby and stop him from going coo coo, that alwayse seemed what she was trying to do. To get Rand to the LB with his sanity intact.

 

 

well thats my two cents.