Good and Evil, (Begun in the Nature of the Creator and His Intentions thread).

[Bob T Dwarf]

There may be a detail that is being overlooked here -

 

Everybody seems to be viewing this as a conflict between Good and Evil.

 

I believe that the closest analog to what the books depict, and the one that was Jordan's stated objective is a conflict between Order and Chaos.  Ragnarokk rather than Armageddon.  The Forsaken want to "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule."  Rand wants to create an orderly and progressive society.

 

In an Order/Chaos scenario, questions about benevolence, or the lack thereof, have no real place.  So, the question of whether the Creator is, or is even behaving, in a benevolent manner has no meaning.  The salient question is: Is the Creator behaving in an Orderly manner?

 

Before we can begin to answer that, we need to define The Rules of Order that are at work here.

 

The primary difference between Order and Chaos that I can think of is:

Rule 1.  For every Effect there is a Cause.  In a Chaotic Universe that would not be true.  In a truly Chaotic Universe, Effect A might have a Cause in one case but not in another.  In an absolutely Chaotic Universe, there would be no predicting the cases either.

[Builder]

See this is why I like Bob T Dwarf.

 

However Bob, quite frankly I don't think anyone can answer your question about the Creator as no one has ever "seen" him.

 

Also, about rules of order... Those should be the same as in RL. What is order should be the question. Order is when everything is put into place so to speak and that everything works smoothly. Rand wants order and peace. The DO wants complete chaos, or he want to create the world in his image which I believe would be a chaotic world where there are no constants. Things are shifting and laws are being rewritten - if there are any laws in the first place :)

[Bob T Dwarf]

See this is why I like Bob T Dwarf.

 

However Bob, quite frankly I don't think anyone can answer your question about the Creator as no one has ever "seen" him.

 

Also, about rules of order... Those should be the same as in RL. What is order should be the question. Order is when everything is put into place so to speak and that everything works smoothly. Rand wants order and peace. The DO wants complete chaos, or he want to create the world in his image which I believe would be a chaotic world where there are no constants. Things are shifting and laws are being rewritten - if there are any laws in the first place :)

 

Thanks.

 

My guess is that there are no "uniques" in this story.  Everyone and everything, even the Creator and The Dark One, is reflected in everyone and everything else in the story.  Thus we should be able to deduce things about the Creator from what we see reflected in all the other characters.

 

Nobody is entirely Good.  Nor is anyone entirely Evil.  We see aspects of both in every character.  All have done "Good" things.  All have done "Evil" things.  So, attempting to define the characters ( including the Creator and DO ) on a Good/Evil basis doesn't work.

 

The Creator ( and I too believe it is him/her/it that we see SPEAK at the end of TEotW ) seems to be taking a posture of indifference.  Much death and destruction and suffering is the result.  Rand rights some wrongs, imposes some more equitable laws, and kills a large part of his own army through hubris.

 

The DO is the one who is giving people second chances to "get it right."  Even so, the DO isn't anybody with whom I'd care to be associated.  Moridin helps Rand at Shadar Logoth.  Again not anybody I'd trust to do so regularly.  Elza kills Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva at the Cleansing.  Black as they come.

 

Rand, whatever his faults and shortcomings strives to impose Order.  Always.  Thus, I take it that the Creator embodies Order.

 

Moridin, as an emblem for the opposition, strives to impose Chaos.  Likewise, I take it that the DO embodies everything that is Chaos.

 

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

See this is why I like Bob T Dwarf.

 

However Bob, quite frankly I don't think anyone can answer your question about the Creator as no one has ever "seen" him.

 

Also, about rules of order... Those should be the same as in RL. What is order should be the question. Order is when everything is put into place so to speak and that everything works smoothly. Rand wants order and peace. The DO wants complete chaos, or he want to create the world in his image which I believe would be a chaotic world where there are no constants. Things are shifting and laws are being rewritten - if there are any laws in the first place :)

 

Thanks.

 

My guess is that there are no "uniques" in this story.  Everyone and everything, even the Creator and The Dark One, is reflected in everyone and everything else in the story.  Thus we should be able to deduce things about the Creator from what we see reflected in all the other characters.

 

Nobody is entirely Good.  Nor is anyone entirely Evil.  We see aspects of both in every character.  All have done "Good" things.  All have done "Evil" things.  So, attempting to define the characters ( including the Creator and DO ) on a Good/Evil basis doesn't work.

 

The Creator ( and I too believe it is him/her/it that we see SPEAK at the end of TEotW ) seems to be taking a posture of indifference.  Much death and destruction and suffering is the result.  Rand rights some wrongs, imposes some more equitable laws, and kills a large part of his own army through hubris.

 

The DO is the one who is giving people second chances to "get it right."  Even so, the DO isn't anybody with whom I'd care to be associated.  Moridin helps Rand at Shadar Logoth.  Again not anybody I'd trust to do so regularly.  Elza kills Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva at the Cleansing.  Black as they come.

 

Rand, whatever his faults and shortcomings strives to impose Order.  Always.  Thus, I take it that the Creator embodies Order.

 

Moridin, as an emblem for the opposition, strives to impose Chaos.  Likewise, I take it that the DO embodies everything that is Chaos.

 

 

 

No one is entirely evil? Uhhh...Wrong sir.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Name one character who is entirely evil.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Sammel, Morridin, Graendal, Lanfear, Moghedian, Demandred, Semhirage, Fain. I could probably pull a few more out but those are enough. They are all compltely evil by any standard or concept of the term we have. Even if you do "Good" things. I.E. Morridin saving Rand in SL to benifit evil in the long run, it's still evil. Probably more so actually.

[silent_spectre]

Given the symbol of the Aes Sedai, a yin-yang, I would expect that everything is expected to be in a state of constant flux to maintain balance.  Draw a line through the middle of a yin-yang and then rotate the line through a 360 degree arc.  At no time will you be strictly in the white or black...there is always the alternate in some amount, however small.  

 

Take the known events of the series... there was the age of legends, in which some individuals still had "bad" thoughts or actions.  However it was to improve upon the world that the bore was bored into, resulting in a swing in the other direction... enter chaos as the golden age of the world was thrown into war...

 

Then the dragon and the 100 companions seal the bore, resulting in the taint on Saidan and the Breaking...

 

The world breaks...

 

Artur Hawkwing is able to unify the known world, minus the waste and the blight... then he dies resulting in infighting and division...

 

You now have the results from that conflict when the series opens, which introduces the Dragon again to reinstate order, because the DO is beginning to stir from the bore, note the never ending winter...

 

The Last Battle would in theory reseal the bore and push back the DO's effects... and in the build up to the LB the nations are brought closer together and the AS are reunited and saidin has been cleansed, so that men can actively channel again.  An effort will be made to unite ALL channelers and free those held be the Seanchan... technolgy from all nations and new learning will take place in the new "schools" established throughout the lands... definitely a start to a new age of legends...

 

The balance is in effect acting a a pendulum to turn the wheel of time, but that is just my thoughts...

 

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sammel, Morridin, Graendal, Lanfear, Moghedian, Demandred, Semhirage, Fain. I could probably pull a few more out but those are enough. They are all compltely evil by any standard or concept of the term we have. Even if you do "Good" things. I.E. Morridin saving Rand in SL to benifit evil in the long run, it's still evil. Probably more so actually.

 

None of those are totally evil.  All do predominantly evil things, but being human, they are imperfect in that, and also do good, even if they don't intend it.

 

Complete evil, just like complete good, requires perfection.  None of the characters in this or any other story is perfect.

 

All of those you list spend most of their time and energy scheming and plotting against each other.  Thus, they do the accidental good of permitting an effective opposition to their designs to coalesce.  If they'd just quit squabbling and cooperate in actually doing what they claim to collectively want, the whole world would be in such confusion and chaos that the Dark would triumph by default.  Those "completely evil" characters do the immense good of helping the Light to triumph in the end.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Sammel, Morridin, Graendal, Lanfear, Moghedian, Demandred, Semhirage, Fain. I could probably pull a few more out but those are enough. They are all compltely evil by any standard or concept of the term we have. Even if you do "Good" things. I.E. Morridin saving Rand in SL to benifit evil in the long run, it's still evil. Probably more so actually.

 

None of those are totally evil.  All do predominantly evil things, but being human, they are imperfect in that, and also do good, even if they don't intend it.

 

Complete evil, just like complete good, requires perfection.  None of the characters in this or any other story is perfect.

 

All of those you list spend most of their time and energy scheming and plotting against each other.  Thus, they do the accidental good of permitting an effective opposition to their designs to coalesce.  If they'd just quit squabbling and cooperate in actually doing what they claim to collectively want, the whole world would be in such confusion and chaos that the Dark would triumph by default.  Those "completely evil" characters do the immense good of helping the Light to triumph in the end.

 

It's semancitcs. Either way though your understanding of good and evil seem a little flawed to my mind. Accidental good is completely different from intentional. The fact they didn't intend for "Good" things to happen negates any of the actual good they did. At least when you're arguing about their perceptions. If you ask them if they think they're completely evil I bet they would say yes. They're completely evil enough for the purposes of this argument.

[Bob T Dwarf]

History shows us that nobody is evil by intent.  Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, anybody you care to name intended to do only what they saw as right and proper.

 

I think we can agree that, in all cases, their perception was flawed, but nonetheless, their intent was to do good.

 

Likewise the characters in this story all intend to do good.  Those labeled as Forsaken just have a different idea of "good" than those who claim to be dedicated to the Light.  From their POV, the DO is destined to win and it only makes sense for everyone to begin to accommodate themselves to the new sheriff in town.

 

Firstly, it's a mistake to ever judge another.  We don't live in their heads.  We can't know what they feel, "see", or understand.  All we can judge is outcomes.  If the outcome is "good", then despite whatever may have been intended, that person ( or character ) did "good."

[Ashaman Kovan]

History shows us that nobody is evil by intent.  Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, anybody you care to name intended to do only what they saw as right and proper.

 

I think we can agree that, in all cases, their perception was flawed, but nonetheless, their intent was to do good.

 

Likewise the characters in this story all intend to do good.  Those labeled as Forsaken just have a different idea of "good" than those who claim to be dedicated to the Light.  From their POV, the DO is destined to win and it only makes sense for everyone to begin to accommodate themselves to the new sheriff in town.

 

Firstly, it's a mistake to ever judge another.  We don't live in their heads.  We can't know what they feel, "see", or understand.  All we can judge is outcomes.  If the outcome is "good", then despite whatever may have been intended, that person ( or character ) did "good."

 

It's their intentions that define if they themselves as a person are "good" or "evil". Hitler didn't think what he was doing was good and right. That's just what he wanted people to think so they would follow him. His endgame was to rule the world. Not to make it a better place, but because it would be a better place for him if he were the one controlling it. And when arguing the case of someone in a work of literature. Umm yes, often enough we are in their head. We sometimes do know exactly what they feel, "see", and understand.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

It's their intentions that define if they themselves as a person are "good" or "evil". Hitler didn't think what he was doing was good and right. That's just what he wanted people to think so they would follow him. His endgame was to rule the world. Not to make it a better place, but because it would be a better place for him if he were the one controlling it. And when arguing the case of someone in a work of literature. Umm yes, often enough we are in their head. We sometimes do know exactly what they feel, "see", and understand.

 

Hitler was pretty nuts, but he was just trying to build what he saw as a "better" world.  As his gift to his people, a legacy for after he was gone. 

 

We only know the characters as they are when we come to meet them.  We have no idea of what forces supposedly shaped them.  We only know those thoughts, beliefs, and perceptions that the author chooses to share with us, never the totality of what they think or perceive.

 

What is intended to make them scary for the reader is not their total inhumanity, but their all-too-real humanity.   Their incredible ability, just like all of us, to rationalize the most outrageous beliefs and behaviour.

[Ashaman Kovan]

 

It's their intentions that define if they themselves as a person are "good" or "evil". Hitler didn't think what he was doing was good and right. That's just what he wanted people to think so they would follow him. His endgame was to rule the world. Not to make it a better place, but because it would be a better place for him if he were the one controlling it. And when arguing the case of someone in a work of literature. Umm yes, often enough we are in their head. We sometimes do know exactly what they feel, "see", and understand.

 

Hitler was pretty nuts, but he was just trying to build what he saw as a "better" world.  As his gift to his people, a legacy for after he was gone. 

 

We only know the characters as they are when we come to meet them.  We have no idea of what forces supposedly shaped them.  We only know those thoughts, beliefs, and perceptions that the author chooses to share with us, never the totality of what they think or perceive.

 

What is intended to make them scary for the reader is not their total inhumanity, but their all-too-real humanity.   Their incredible ability, just like all of us, to rationalize the most outrageous beliefs and behaviour.

 

A legacy after he was gone...For his ego. A legacy of genocide. Pretty up there on the list of "Evilest S%it Done".

 

Graendal torturing children and all that. Demandred having everyone in an entire city murdered because he thought someone there might have insulted him in the past.

 

It doesn't get much more "evil" than that. No matter how much you try and dissemble and warp the meaning of the word.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

A legacy after he was gone...For his ego. A legacy of genocide. Pretty up there on the list of "Evilest S%it Done".

 

Graendal torturing children and all that. Demandred having everyone in an entire city murdered because he thought someone there might have insulted him in the past.

 

It doesn't get much more "evil" than that. No matter how much you try and dissemble and warp the meaning of the word.

 

Now you're judging outcomes rather than intent.   First you say we must judge their intent regardless of outcome, and then you say we must judge only the outcome.  Which do you want it to be, you can't have it both ways.

 

Nobody, real or fictional, is capable of getting up every morning and doing only those things they "know" to be "wrong or evil."   In order to be believable, a character can only do those things they can rationalize as being "right, good, and proper."  In their own minds, they must be helping to create a "better" world.

 

It's the ability to rationalize that makes people so dangerous.

 

In the context of this story, it's the ability to rationalize the furthering of Chaos that makes the Forsaken so dangerous.  Good and evil don't enter into it.

[Ashaman Kovan]

The intent and the outcome of the afore mentioned examples are one and the same. What, you don't think hitler intended on killing that many people when he raised armys and then..You know, sent them to kill people whose lands he wanted to take over and didn't look the way he thought they should? Oh and didn't have the same religion as him?

What do you think Demandreds' intentions were that led to the outcome of an entire city of being destroyed?

Like I said, you're trying to change, or entirely dismiss, the meanings of the words good and evil to suit your need to call them order and chaos just because the word chaos has been mentioned a handfull of times (Other than the obvious title) in the course of 11 books.

 

Why not call it ummm....Belaonion opposed to Nargashian? Those sound good and evilish.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Only in your mind are the intent and outcome the same.  Reality isn't that simple.  Even fictional reality.

 

All human conflict stems from differing ideas about what is "good," what is "right," what is "proper," and what is "necessary."

 

The Forsaken and their Darkfriends see Chaos as all of those things.  If they believed that little old ladies always making it safely across streets would help Chaos and further their own personal prospects, they'd all be helping little old ladies cross streets.

 

They're vain, and silly, and foolish, and blind to their own faults.  Greedy, selfish, stupid, and inevitably futile, but none is completely evil.  They're simply caricatures of all human faults writ large.  They rationalize their faults as virtues.  In their minds they are the real heroes of this tale.

 

If it weren't that way, we couldn't find them even a little believable.

[Kadere]

Here some excerpts of two letters RJ wrote to Carolyn Fusinato back in 1994 in regards to just how "evil" the Forsaken are and the nature of "evil" in his books.

 

Now about how evil the Forsaken are. I'm not really sure you define evil. Part of what I am writing about is just how ordinary evil is. In many ways, without the One Power, the Forsaken would be no more than Darkfriends, though perhaps a bit more than ordinary. True, their callousness toward the pain, suffering, even death of ordinary people, and the way they submerge everything and everyone in their own quest for power--and true immortality--their willingness to deliver the world to the Dark One in that quest, are shared by many who do not have their powers. The point is that they are human; they haven't gotten rid of human emotions, or human weaknesses except for a few physical ones. They are not gods, nor even demi-gods, though they seek to be and think they already are. But believe me, there is nothing they will not do to achieve their goals, no price too high to pay--especially if it is paid by someone else, or millions of someone else's. And Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.

 

Does evil need to be effective to be evil? And how do you define effectiveness? Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge managed to murder about 25-30% of Cambodia's population, destroy the country's agricultural and industrial base, fairly well wipe out the educated class inside the country (defined as anyone with an education beyond the ability to read; a good many of those went too, of course), and in general became so rabid that only China was willing to maintain any sort of contact with them, and that at arm's length. Their rabidity was the prime reason that they ended up losing the country. (though they are still around and still causing trouble.) In other words, they were extremely ineffective in attaining their goal, which was to seize Cambodia, remake it in the way Pol Pot wished (and still wishes), and export their brand of revolution abroad. Looking at the death toll, the cities emptied out (hospital patients were told they had one hour to leave or die; post-op patients, those still in the operating room, everybody), the murders of entire families down to infants because one member of the family was suspected of "counter-revolutionary" crimes, the mass executions (one method was for hundreds of people to be bound hand and foot, then bulldozed into graves alive; the bulldozers drove back and forth over these mass graves until attempts to dig out stopped) -- given all of that, can you say that Khmer Roughe's ineffectiveness made them less evil? Irrationality is more fearful than rationality (if we can use that term in this regard) because if you have brown hair and know that the serial killer out there is only killing blondes, you are safe, but if he is one of those following no easily discernible pattern, if every murder seems truly random, then it could be you who will be next. But "rationality" can have its terrors. What if that killer is only after brunettes named Carolyn? Stalin had the very rational goal (according to Communist dogma) of forcibly collectivizing all farmland in the Soviet Union. He was effective -- all the land was collectivized -- and to do it he murdered some thirty million small farmers who did not want to go along.

 

But are the Forsaken ineffective or irrational? Are they any more divided than any other group plotting got take over a country, a world, IBM? True, they plot to secure power for themselves. But I give you Stalin v. Trotsky and the entire history of the Soviet Union. I give you Thomas Jefferson v. Alexander Hamilton v. John Adams, and we will ignore such thins as Jefferson's hounding of Aaron Burr (he tore up the Constitution to do it; double jeopardy, habeas corpus, the whole nine yards), or Horatio Gates' attempted military coup against Washington, with the support of a fair amount of the Continental Congress. We can also ignore Secretary of War Stanton's attempts to undermine Lincoln throughout the Civil War, the New England states' attempt to make a separate peace with England during the Revolution and their continued trading with the enemy (the British again) during the War of 1812, and... The list could go on forever, frankly, and take in every country. Human nature is to seize personal advantage, and when the situation is the one the Forsaken face (namely that one of them will be given the rule of the entire earth while the others are forever subordinate), they are going to maneuver and backstab like crazy. You yourself say "If ever there was the possibility that some alien force was going to invade this planet, half the countries would refuse to admit the problem, the other half would be fighting each other to figure out who will lead the countries into battle, etc." Even events like Rahvin or Sammael or Be'lal seizing a nation have a basis. What better way to hand over large chunks of land and people to the Dark One than to be ruler of those lands and people? The thing is that they are human. But aside from that, are you sure that you know what they are up to? All of them? Are you sure you know what the Dark One's own plans are? Now let's see about Rand and his dangers and his allies. Have you been skimming, my dear? What makes you think the Tairens, Cairhienin and Andorans are solidly behind him? They're plotting and scheming as hard as the Forsaken. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, but this is my country, and we don't need anybody, and so on. And then there are those who don't think he is the DR at all, just a puppet of Tar Valon. Most of the Aiel may be behind him, but the Shaido are still around, and the bleackness is still taking its toll, since not all Aiel can face up to what Rand has told them about themselves. What makes you think the Seanchan will fall in behind Rand? Have you seen any Seanchan volunteers showing up? Carolyn, half of these people are denying there is a problem, and half are trying to be big honcho themselves. Read again, Carolyn. The world Rand lives in is getting more frenzied and turbulent. Damned few are saying, "Lead, because you know best." A good many who are following are saying "Lead, because I'd rather follow you than have you call down lightning and burn me to a crisp!"

 

As for lack of challenge, I refer you again to the question about whether you really think you know what all the Forsaken are planning. Or what Padan Fain is up to. There is a flaw inherent in fiction, one that is overcome by suspension of disbelief. We do always know, somewhere in the back of our heads, that the hero is going to make it through as far as he needs to. After all, if Frodo buys the farm, the story is over, kids. The excitement comes in trying to figure out how he can possibly wiggle out, how he can possibly triumph.

 

In Rand's case, let's see what he still has stacked against him. The Cairhienin and Tairens are for the most part reluctant allies, and in many cases not even that. At the end of FIRES, he has Caemlyn, but I don't see any Andoran nobles crowding around to hail him. Illian still belongs to Sammael. Pedron Niall is working to convince people Rand is a false Dragon, and the Prophet is alienating ten people for every one he convinces. Tarabon and Arad Doman are unholy messes; even if Rand manages to get in touch with all of the Dragonsworn -- who are not organized beyond individual bands -- he has two humongous civil wars to deal with. True, he can use the Aiel to suppress those, but he has to avoid men killing men too much; there are Trollocs waiting to spill out of the Blight eventually. We must always remember the Trollocs, Myrddraal etc; the last time they came out in force, it took over 300 years to beat them back, and the Last Battle doesn't give Rand anywhere near that. Altara and Murandy are so divided in any case that simply getting the king or queen on his side isn't going to work; remember that most people in those two countries give loyalty to a city or a local lord and only toss in their country as an afterthought. Davram Bashere thinks Tenobia will bring Saldaea to Rand, and that is possible since the Borderlands would be one place where everyone is aware of the Last Battle and the Prophecies, but even Bashere isn't willing to make any promises, not even for Saldaea much less the other Borderlands, and I haven't seen any Borderland rulers showing up to hand Rand the keys to the kingdom. Padan Fain is out there, able to feel Rand, and hating him because of what was done to him, Fain, to make him able to find Rand. The surviving Forsaken are out there and except for Sammael, nobody knows what they are up to or where they can be found. For that matter, who knows everything that Sammael is up to? Elaida, in the White Tower, thinks Rand has to be tightly controlled. The Salidar Aes Sedai are not simply ready to fall in and kiss his boots, either. Aes Sedai have been manipulating the world for more than three thousand years, guiding it, making sure it remembers the Dark One and Tarmon Gai'don as real threats, doing their best, as they see it, to prepare the world for the Dark One breaking free. Are they likely to simply step aside and hand over control to a farmboy, even if he is the Dragon Reborn? Even after Moiraine decided he had to be given his head, Siuan was reluctant, and Siuan was in Moiraine's little conspiracy from the beginning. And the Seanchan...The last we saw of their forces, they were commanded by a Darkfriend. As for the Sea Folk, do you know what their prophecy says about the Coramoor? Do you think working with them it will be any simpler than dealing with the Aiel, say?

 

Now, what and who does Rand have solidly in his camp? Perrin knows what is needed, but he's hardly happy about it. What he really wants is to settle down with Faile and be a blacksmith; everything else is a reluctant duty. Mat blew the Horn of Valere, but it's hidden in the Tower, and frankly, if he could figure some way to go away and spend the rest of his life carousing and chasing women, he would. He'll do what he has to do, but Light he doesn't want to. The Aiel are for Rand (less the Shaido, still a formidable force), but the Dragon Reborn and the Last Battle are no part of the Prophecy of Rhuidean. That is all wetlander stuff. Besides which, they are still suffering losses from bleakness, people throwing down their spears and leaving, people defecting to the Shaido or drifting back to the Waste because what Rand told them of their origins can't possibly be true and if it isn't then he can't be the car'a'carn. Rand has declared an amnesty for men who can channel and is trying to gather them in; they, at least, should give their loyalty to him. But how many can he find? How much can he teach them in the time he has? How many will go mad before the Last Battle? There is still the taint on saidin, remember. For that matter, can Rand hang onto his own sanity? What effect will having a madman inside his head have? Can he stop Lews Therin from taking him over?

 

I know that was supposed to be a listing of what Rand has in his favor, but the fact is that he is walking the razor's edge, barely hanging onto his sanity and growing more paranoid all the time, barely hanging onto putative allies, most of whom would just as soon see him go away in the hope that then everything would be the way it was before he showed up, confronted by enemies on every side. In short he has challenges enough for ten men. I've had people writ to say they can't see how Rand is going to untangle all of this and get humanity ready to face the Last Battle. What I say is, what you believe to be true is not always true. What you think is going to happen is not always going to happen. That has been demonstrated time and again in THE WHEEL OF TIME. You could call those two statements one of the themes of the books.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Thanks for that Kadere.

 

If nothing else, we have some assurance that the Horn is hidden in the Tower and not someplace else.

 

If I'm reading it correctly, I see it as reinforcing my premise.  There are no "Good Guys" and there are no "Bad Guys."  Just human beings being human.

 

Jordan said repeatedly that nobody was meant to be a complete analog for anyone from our mythology.  All contain elements of a number of mythological characters from all corners of the earth.  The predominant characteristics of  the main characters are, however, drawn from Norse mythology.

 

Perrin is a lot like Thor.  Mat is part Loki and part Odin.  The Wondergirls have a lot of Freya in them.  Rand is part Tyr ( and, I hope, part Balder ).  There's a lot of Fenrir in Semirhage.  Ishamael might be seen as Vafþrúðnir. Even more likely, Vafþrúðnir might be seen as the Finns.

 

Those are all characters from the Eddas.  Many of the events of Ragnarok are contained in the Prophesies, Dreams, and Foretellings of WOT.  From Wikipedia: "people flee their homes, and the sun becomes black while the earth sinks into the sea, the stars vanish, steam rises, and flames touch the heavens."  Twice dawns the day, anyone?

 

We don't get the comfort of Good versus Evil.  Instead we get the ambiguity of Order versus Chaos.  The Good Guys hats aren't sufficiently white.  The Bad Guys hats aren't sufficiently black.  The Creator is neither benevolent nor indifferent nor powerless - merely dedicated to preserving the Order of his Pattern - and that Pattern dictates that mankind has to clean-up after itself.  To be adults and take responsibility for the consequences of our acts.

 

Cold comfort.  No Utopia waiting at the end.  Maybe a little less needless cruelty.  But basically just the Pattern preserved and same stuff, different day.

[Mr Ares]

History shows us that nobody is evil by intent.

Hardly.

 

All human conflict stems from differing ideas about what is "good," what is "right," what is "proper," and what is "necessary."

No. "Reality isn't that simple. Even fictional reality." There are actions taken with no conception of morality, only desire. Things done not because they are good, or right, but because someone felt like it.

[Dunderdan]

Argh, this thread is full of interesting things to comment and I was originally going to comment on the OP, but must limit myself for now.

 

About the possibilities of being totally evil/good;

Id like to add that Bob is right if the argument concerns the real world. But it is of course possible to - within a fictional world - invent a totally evil being. So Kovan can be right too. it depends on what we're discussing. Id like to add though, that love isnt an act of evil and if you could trace even a fragment of love in a character, Id argue that character isnt totally evil. I didnt have time to read the RJ quotes posted by Kadere, but Im guessing thats roughly the subject RJ was touching. If theres still a human part in you, you still have room for love of some sort.

 

Now, this is only other subject I had time to reflect upon:

 

In a truly Chaotic Universe, Effect A might have a Cause in one case but not in another.  In an absolutely Chaotic Universe, there would be no predicting the cases either.

 

Id like to argue that there is no such thing as an absolutely Chaotic Universe, because by using the term "universe", you imply the presence of a frame and a frame is in itself an object of order. Thus, Id like to suggest that an absolute chaotic universe cant exist. Its an oxymoron. The idea of chaos needs a base of order and that need makes chaos imperfect, flawed. Perhaps it even proves the impossibility of chaos as a world order. Its only the destructive opposite of order, which needs order to exist.

 

I do agree however, that WoT doesnt necessarily have to be described only as a good vs evil scenario. The order vs evil scenario may be as valid. However, since its seems to me to be a well established fact that the DO supporters within WoT are acting evil, I find it to be of enough substance to conclude that the DO is evil. I like the idea of the DO wanting to keep the wheel structure, using it for evil purposes, which would mean an order vs order scenario. But appearantly BS has revealed that the DO does intend to destroy the wheel, which is an act of chaos. Seems like its BOTH a good vs evil and an order vs chaos scenario?

 

Must run, hope its understandable, tada :)

 

[Luckers]

I split this because it wasn't on topic with the original thread (or why the poster re-raised the original thread) yet was still a damn interesting topic.

 

Have fun. Play nice.

[Bob T Dwarf]

All human conflict stems from differing ideas about what is "good," what is "right," what is "proper," and what is "necessary."

No. "Reality isn't that simple. Even fictional reality." There are actions taken with no conception of morality, only desire. Things done not because they are good, or right, but because someone felt like it.

 

Yes, people can be thoughtless.  But thoughtless doesn't equate to evil by intent.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

I do agree however, that WoT doesnt necessarily have to be described only as a good vs evil scenario. The order vs evil scenario may be as valid. However, since its seems to me to be a well established fact that the DO supporters within WoT are acting evil, I find it to be of enough substance to conclude that the DO is evil. I like the idea of the DO wanting to keep the wheel structure, using it for evil purposes, which would mean an order vs order scenario. But appearantly BS has revealed that the DO does intend to destroy the wheel, which is an act of chaos. Seems like its BOTH a good vs evil and an order vs chaos scenario?

 

Must run, hope its understandable, tada :)

 

 

The evil being done - by both the Bad Guys and the Good Guys - is merely coincidental.  No character in the entire series is setting out to be EVIL.

 

The Creator, via his Pattern has defined reality.  Imposed limits and borders.  That reality excludes true chaos and the DO.  None of us have seen enough of the DO to say with any certainty what he/she/it intends, but it seems safe to say, that at minimum, the DO intends to redefine reality to include him/her/it. 

 

Some, those we see as the Good Guys, are setting out to preserve the Pattern and Order.  They see that as the right thing to do even though that Pattern makes them hamsters inside a wheel.  Destined to retread the same ground endlessly.  A Pattern that contains a lot of what I would call evil, in that it doesn't allow for real resolution of problems nor real progress and advancement.  Mankind must always do things the way grampa did.  Status quo ante good.  Progress bad.  Both Means justify the End and End justifies the Means here.

 

The Seanchan represent extreme Order.  Rigid social structure.  Oppressive caste system.  Slavery.  A place for everything and everything in its place.  Even with their tolerance and benevolence, at bottom they're utterly ruthless about enforcing their notion of Order.  Lots of inherent badness there.

 

Others, those we see as Bad Guys, want to get out of that rut.  To see new things and have new experiences.  The only way they've found that might allow that is to break the Pattern.  The only vehicle they've found that might permit that is the DO.  In the course of trying to break out of the Creators rut, they do a lot of things that are evil, also.  But, evil merely for the sake of evil is not their intent.  What they see as progress is.  Progress good.  Status quo ante bad.  End justifies the means is the only operational dicta here.

 

The Forsaken and Darkfriends embody Chaos.  An extreme over-reaction to the oppressiveness of rigid, endlessly repeating Order.  They see themselves as Freedom Fighters.  Although what they seek is merely license, not freedom.  A place for nothing except themselves and everything else in constant flux.

 

Both camps do evil things, but that evil is only incidental to what they see as a greater good.  Why?  Because they're merely human.  Ignorant, shortsighted, flawed.  The "Good Guys" can rationalize almost anything on the basis of preserving Order.  The "Bad Guys" can rationalize absolutely anything of the basis of change and advancing progress.

 

[jaybig]

Bob, great job writing out something that is hard to explain speaking with others. Kudos

 

I think you are right, this battle is order vs chaos. 

 

We have seen some chaos from the Dark Ones touch, ex- the dead walking in the living world, hallways not leading where there used to, the odd weather patterns are the big examples. 

 

The DO thrives on chaos and it seems that he gains more power in the world as it becomes more chaotic...I wonder if the creator loses power in the world as order is lost?

[Bob T Dwarf]

The DO thrives on chaos and it seems that he gains more power in the world as it becomes more chaotic...I wonder if the creator loses power in the world as order is lost?

 

Excellent question.  I don't have an answer or even a theory, but someone else may.