Our new heroes.

[The Doctor]

mb?

[Mr Ares]

The pattern doesn't need Artur. The Pattern doesn't need Birgitte.

Considering they are both part of the Pattern's selfcorrecting mechanism, I'd say that claim needs some justification.

 

Mat looks the part of a hero.

So? That's no point at all, unless you're discussing who'd look good on a recruitment poster.

 

Contradict yourself much?

Not in the slightest. I have precious little time for fools who can neither be bothered to get my name right, nor to understand my point. I don't know why you decided to drag this topic up, and say so little of note, but my point was that Rand and LTT have similarities of character, and appearances are transient things and thus immaterial to a Hero of the Horn. Birgitte had a braid in her last life, but she might not in her next, or the one before. She might be a short haired brunette. So Mat's physical appearance or simialr "distinguishing features" have nothing to do with a future bound to the Wheel.

[Jameric]

Name me a general that has Mats personality and skill and that has devoted it to the service of the light?

Mat's personality will change, according to you, between lives, and thus cannot be used as an argument in favour. And there are another five Great Captains on this side of the Aryth in recent times, counting all of history and all the world? Why would the Pattern need a Mat? That is the issue. The Pattern makes Heroes of those it needs, so why does it need Mat?

 

 

 

 

  Mr. Ares I think you make many valid points defending your arguement. Two things said so far really dont fit though in my opinion. One of the biggest is the question you posed above? WHY does the pattern need Matt?

 

  There is absolutely no question to if the pattern needs Matt, he was one of the three spun out to correct the weaving of the pattern and made Ta'veren. If he wasnted needed he wouldnt of been spun out. So obviously in the Patterns eyes he is most definately needed, and seeing as he is made Ta'veren and spun out in this particular crucial time of history obviously the need for him is great or it wouldnt bother.

 

  The other thing that confuses me is referring to Matt's appearance being less unique then we are led to believe. The scarf, the hat, and probably most distintive of all  his weapon. Now taking each thing seperately I agree, I am sure the commonality is clear, but it is taking these things all together, the sum the whole that makes it distinctive. Do men wear scarves in the hottest of tempatures to cover the scars from hanging? Possibly, I havent read of it anywhere though. And as a matter of fact how often do you read of men CONSISTANTLY wearing scarves no matter the locale/situation. Maybe I am missing something but given Altara's locale and weather that dont seem normal in the least? Its one of the southern most countries in Randland, right across the border Illidan whose resisdents believe SNOW is a myth. But one can argue about popular fashion here, but I would welecome all examples that would support that claim. Secondly the Hat, yes your case here would probably be your best one, as it was bought from a peddler so it alone can only add so much of a distinctive quality. Though if you really think about it, just viewing a crowd of who has Hats (no helmets)and who dont in Randland will weed out quite a few (think of playing the game of "Quess Who" to further empasize my point). Thirdly, and probably the most valid of the three, is his Power-Wrought Ashandarei.We have not seen ANY example in the books (and if i wrong please do point it out to me as would be very interesting example) of it twin being wielded yet, even baring the fact the fact of the Raven carvings (foreshadowing much?), the writting of the old tongue on it, and its weapon strenghtened capabilities. We have yet to see anything like this, and yet it its still very distictive (weapon distintiveness of course is noted with money of the Heroes of the Horn via Artur Hawkings-Justice, Gidial Cain's Dual wielding swords, to even Brigette's unique bow).

 

  Now as I said it is the sum of the whole that makes Matt distintive, I think a man walking down the street in a hat, with scarf around his neck, with a weapon with the likes that of which is seldom seen would stick out like a sore thumb.  Now given all this in addition to Matt's cloths that are becoming ever more unique, but I will concede vary depending on the situation, I think making a 1 to 10000 comparision might be playing it down on the low side. All of your other arguements I think are valid, except those two.

 

It seems to me, not to be a question of whether the pattern needs Matt, but if it could make further use of him. And I would say if you just taking in consideration Matt's dealings with the Seanchan alone its hard to say its not plausible or at least in the realm of possibility.

 

[deepak_dragonreborn]

dont forget the part that Mat will lose his eye inorder to save the world..after that he will surely be tied to the Horn

[Mr Ares]

There is absolutely no question to if the pattern needs Matt, he was one of the three spun out to correct the weaving of the pattern and made Ta'veren. If he wasnted needed he wouldnt of been spun out. So obviously in the Patterns eyes he is most definately needed, and seeing as he is made Ta'veren and spun out in this particular crucial time of history obviously the need for him is great or it wouldnt bother.

Millions of people are woven out by the Wheel. Most of those souls will just live their lives, die, and eventually come back again. A hundred or so are woven out time and again to correct the drift of the Pattern - these include Hawkwing, Birgitte, and Rand. Another asset the Pattern has is to make people ta'veren. And ta'veren is a temporary condition, people are made such for a time, until what they need to do is accomplished and then they stop being ta'veren. There is nothing special about these souls, they are just in the right (or wrong) place at the right time. Perrin and Mat would appear to be such. The Pattern has a temporary need of him, but it is passing. Siuan has the Talent of seeing ta'veren, which she already knew upon meeting Rand, implying she had encountered ta'veren before, and despite the Talent being said to be rarer than ta'veren, we have actually seen the same number of both on screen. Mat was not spun out for any great purpose, or at least no more so than any number of other people. The Pattern didn't spin him out because it needed him, it spun him out because that's what it does.

 

The other thing that confuses me is referring to Matt's appearance being less unique then we are led to believe.

Mat's unique appearance is supremely irrelevant. Even if he was the only man who had ever dressed as such, ever, Birgitte looked completely different in a past life, and so the same would be true of Mat. He would not continue to have such a unique appearance in every life. So unique, or same as everyone else, his dress sense doesn't make a blind bit of difference to his hero credentials.

Do men wear scarves in the hottest of tempatures to cover the scars from hanging?

I think people should be willing to wear their scars openly.

And as a matter of fact how often do you read of men CONSISTANTLY wearing scarves no matter the locale/situation.

Well, men are more willing to accesorise these days.

 

Mat fulfills a purpose in the here and now, but there is no real need to translate that to a permanent use, for the rest of eternity. Especially considering how rare Heroes are meant to be.

 

dont forget the part that Mat will lose his eye inorder to save the world..after that he will surely be tied to the Horn

Why? What is so special about Mat's eye that losing it will magically make his sacrifice so much greater than anyone elses, and mean he has to be joined?

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Some interesting posts... with many references to Birgitte.  IMO, and in response to the original question, I think Birgitte is the only one I'd like to see become and/or return to her status as HERO.  Consistent with Ares' point, I'm not sure this is a good thing necessarily, but it would represent a return to where she was and get her back to balance. 

 

Just a thought!

[Mr Ares]

Birgitte is the only one I'd like to see become and/or return to her status as HERO.

Pretty sure she hasn't lost it. Min's Viewing of her seems to indicate she is still bound.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Birgitte is the only one I'd like to see become and/or return to her status as HERO.

Pretty sure she hasn't lost it. Min's Viewing of her seems to indicate she is still bound.

 

Ahh... it's been a long while since I read WH. 

[Telzen]

The bottom line is: Doing great things can net you a position as a hero. And Mat and Perrin are the second most important people in The Last Battle. I'd call that pretty great. What could all the other heros have done that was more important than that? Another thought I just had. Why would the wheel spin out two untested people like Mat and Perrin for such an improtant role when it has so many heros to work with?

[Hybrid]

Why would the wheel spin out two untested people like Mat and Perrin for such an improtant role when it has so many heros to work with?

It didn't.  You can't be born ta'veren:

Q: Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

 

RJ: You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

[Mr Ares]

Why would the wheel spin out two untested people like Mat and Perrin for such an improtant role when it has so many heros to work with?

It didn't spin them out for any more reason than it spins out any of the other millions of souls it spins out. They can do the job as ta'veren, so why use a Hero when one isn't needed?

[Telzen]

Because the whole purpose of the heros are for the Wheel to use to ensure the pattern goes the right way. It uses Rand's soul over and over during these important battles, so why not use the souls of those that have proven themselves before. What's the point in all those heros if you don't use them during such an important time?

 

And I know you can't be born ta’veren. But obviously the Wheel was setting them up from the beginning to be ta’veren alongside Rand.

[meeker]

Why would the wheel spin out two untested people like Mat and Perrin for such an improtant role when it has so many heros to work with?

It didn't spin them out for any more reason than it spins out any of the other millions of souls it spins out. They can do the job as ta'veren, so why use a Hero when one isn't needed?

 

 

It seems pretty clear to me that whether or not they are bound directly the wheel they were certainly spun out with more reason than 'any of the other millions'. 

 

 

1)  They are born within days of Rand

2)  They are Ta'veren of incredible strength...after Rand they might be the two most powerful Ta'veren.

3)  Moiraine and the shadow can not even tell which of them is The Dragon Reborn for a while.

4)  The viewing that it will take all three of them to defeat the shadow.

5)  The fact that they are now linked so strongly they can see each other just by thinking about them.  This does not seem a remotely normal thing even for randland.

 

 

There are way to many similarities and bonds between the three of them for Mat/Perrin to not be spun out specifically to meet this purpose.  I am not convinced the two of them are tied to the horn but seems pretty ludicrous to me say they are no more different 'any of the other millions'.

   

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Because the whole purpose of the heros are for the Wheel to use to ensure the pattern goes the right way. It uses Rand's soul over and over during these important battles, so why not use the souls of those that have proven themselves before. What's the point in all those heros if you don't use them during such an important time?

 

And I know you can't be born ta’veren. But obviously the Wheel was setting them up from the beginning to be ta’veren alongside Rand.

 

Just to clarify, you do know it is possible that those who are called could follow the dark side just as easily as the light side?  I read your comment as if you believe the Pattern would only allow the Heros to side with the Light?

[Matrim DeLaneous]

There are way to many similarities and bonds between the three of them for Mat/Perrin to not be spun out specifically to meet this purpose.  I am not convinced the two of them are tied to the horn but seems pretty ludicrous to me say they are no more different 'any of the other millions'.

 

 

I think it's important to point out that as Ta'veren, they are different than any of the other millions.  However, the overall chances and/or odds for them to be selected by the Pattern as Ta'veren were no greater than anyone else.  Be cautious when you say "Spun Out".  Ta'veren aren't spun out but are designated / selected by the Pattern. 

 

Glimmers Q&A - One becomes ta'veren according to the needs of the Wheel. No one is born ta'veren. Rand, Mat and Perrin became ta'veren just before Moiraine appeared.

 

Also, I don't think it's possible to assume that all Ta'veren are Heroes. The only one I think we can be sure of is Hawkwing. 

[Ziggdiezan]

quick question. when Mat is being healed from the Dagger and he remembers commanding the Heart guard in Manetherns last stand, that is the link to the dagger that cause that memory right? also you all talk about mats scarf what about the hanging mark around his neck, that isnt very common. Later in the wheel of time world i dont think he will be veiwed as a Hero, he made guns/cannons. this is going to kill millions, i think people will like respect him but not rly like him.

[darthfodder]

I think Mat is going to become tied to the Wheel, and maybe Perrin. It would also be cool if one or two of the side characters became tied to the Wheel. It seems like the comment of Arthur Hawkwing to Hurin was a pretty blatant hint of what could happen later. It was either foreshadowing or a red herring; because if one thing is to be learned from reading all of WoT so far it's that there is no such thing as coincidence.

[Telzen]

Because the whole purpose of the heros are for the Wheel to use to ensure the pattern goes the right way. It uses Rand's soul over and over during these important battles, so why not use the souls of those that have proven themselves before. What's the point in all those heros if you don't use them during such an important time?

 

And I know you can't be born ta’veren. But obviously the Wheel was setting them up from the beginning to be ta’veren alongside Rand.

 

Just to clarify, you do know it is possible that those who are called could follow the dark side just as easily as the light side?  I read your comment as if you believe the Pattern would only allow the Heros to side with the Light?

Not talking about when the heros are called by the horn. Remember that isn't their original purpose. Talking about the Wheel spinning out heros to help correct the pattern.

[LedZepMan]

It has occured to me that no one has pointed out the fact that when you are called by the wheel, or when horn bound heroes are in TAR, they appear with a certain appearance, (pretty sure anyway). So it is to my thinking, that mats appearance, (the hat and scarf), are an important feature of being bound to the horn. And we know for certain that weapons are significant with horn bound heroes. And it is to my thinking that Moraine sp? might be bound to the horn, though i feel like im forgetting something here. She has been pretty kick ass up till her death, and is the only woman to have killed not one, but two of the forsaken. It is my guess that she is, if not bound to the wheel, at least an important person to the wheel. But again, this is all off the top of my head and could very well be wrong.

[LedZepMan]

Sorry, bound to the horn, I mean.

 

[Mr Ares]

Because the whole purpose of the heros are for the Wheel to use to ensure the pattern goes the right way.

That's the reason for using ta'veren as well. Why should the one be preferred over the other in this instance?

 

1)  They are born within days of Rand

So?

2)  They are Ta'veren of incredible strength...after Rand they might be the two most powerful Ta'veren.

So? They are ta'veren because the Pattern needs them to be, and they are as strongly ta'veren as they are for the same reason. A higher purpose on the part of the Wheel has nothing to do with it. Right place, right time.

3)  Moiraine and the shadow can not even tell which of them is The Dragon Reborn for a while.

So? That's due to a lack of Intelligence, nothing more.

4)  The viewing that it will take all three of them to defeat the shadow.

And others besides.

5)  The fact that they are now linked so strongly they can see each other just by thinking about them.

So? This appears to be due to ta'veren in some fashion.

 

There are way to many similarities and bonds between the three of them for Mat/Perrin to not be spun out specifically to meet this purpose.

That's complete crap. Rand has feet, so do Perrin and Mat - it can't be coincidence! The Wheel spins out millions of souls, and there doesn't appear to be anything special about Perrin and Mat's souls compared to those others. They are important in this Age, under these circumstances, but they needn't always be. No need for them to be Heroes, now or in the future.

 

that is the link to the dagger that cause that memory right?

More likely the Old Blood. That keeps making him spout all sorts of Old Tongue as well, remember.

 

It seems like the comment of Arthur Hawkwing to Hurin was a pretty blatant hint of what could happen later.

Or RJ just thought it would be far more reasonable for him to be asked about it, and to respond, than otherwise. "Wow, thought there'd be more of you." "Yeah, getting joined is rare, takes more than just bravery. Now let's do it!"

if one thing is to be learned from reading all of WoT so far it's that there is no such thing as coincidence.

Or that coincidences are actually very common, depending on your reading.

 

It has occured to me that no one has pointed out the fact that when you are called by the wheel, or when horn bound heroes are in TAR, they appear with a certain appearance, (pretty sure anyway).

Which can change, as Birgitte used to look completely different in the AoL. Appearance is superficial, and subject to change. They mioght just appear as their last incarnation. Even choice of weapons would be subject to change, as swordsmen and archers are rather less common in industrial eras. Birgitte Silvergun in some Ages, perhaps, or Gaidal with his two pistols.

So it is to my thinking, that mats appearance, (the hat and scarf), are an important feature of being bound to the horn.

So it is my thinking that this doesn't matter a damn thing, as his next life probably won't include them.

She is the only woman to have killed not one, but two of the forsaken.

Be'lal makes one. As far as we know, she didn't kill Lanfear. So she is equal with Elza or the Green Man. No good reason provided for her to be bound.

 

Sorry, bound to the horn, I mean.

Aside from the fact this didn't need to be a new post, when you should hve just edited, you don't, or at least shouldn't, mean bound to the Horn, as the Heroes are not bound to the Horn, but to the Wheel.

[Ziggdiezan]

oh ya not sure if some1 said that his memmeroies are his past lives but... They couldnt be because the dates overlap like he remembers fighting for Manetheren and remembers dancing at some great ball during around the same time. also dancing with the seafolk. i forget the name of the country where he was at the great ball but it was one of the 10 nations (? is that what it was called) which manertheren was part of. He had like a bunch of memories around the time of the compact of the ten nations.

[Thor]

i just want to comment on the horn itself.

 

who made the horn?  when was it made?  why is it that even through presumably thousands and thousands of ages, a horn still looks like a horn?

[Mr Ares]

oh ya not sure if some1 said that his memmeroies are his past lives

Most of his memories are from the Eelfinn, and are of people who went through either the doorways or the Tower. The one in the Tower is the sole exception.

 

when was it made?

It was made before the War of the Power, enough before that its ability to summon Heroes was considered superstition.

why is it that even through presumably thousands and thousands of ages, a horn still looks like a horn?

Thousands of years, certainly, thousands of Ages, no. As for why it still looks like a Horn, what would you like it to look like? Bear in mind it is a magic horn.

[Thor]

before the war of power doesn't say much. how long before?

 

the heroes have been tied ever since they existed (presumably), so how would people summon them if the horn didn't exist for as long as the heroes?