Twice and Twice

[zanotam]

Excerpt from the KC:

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

 

The Aelfinn (elfinn?) to Matrim Cauthon about his destiny:

to die and live again, and live once more part of what was

 

Min Farshaw (to Rand):

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another and....I don't know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies and one doesn't"

 

Now I know that the part of the KC I quoted is assumed to refer to Rand, and I'm not saying that it doesn't, but there are definitely some double meanings. The part about the Dragons, "remembrance lost" and "the price he must pay" are great references to Mat and Rand, especially since the possibility is opened up at the exact same time, when both are at Rhuidean. Now you might note that "Twice to live, and twice to die" are on a line by themselves, and they have additional interpretations. The obvious one is that he is marked twice and twice, twice marked to live and then twice marked to die. It could also mean however that he is to somehow live and die twice. Now throughout the KC Rand, Mat, and Perrin are both mentioned, and Mat's importance to Rand should be obvious, the pattern may be able to turn out a great channeler and general and even both in one, but apparently with only a couple decades to work with those jobs got split. We know LTT was incredibly lucky, a powerful channeler, the Dragon, and the key general for the Light. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, but he is not exactly what most people would call lucky and he hardly has the skill for commanding soldiers. Now, if you take the three prophecies together, LTT Dying and Rand living + Mat 'die and live again' = twice to live, and twice to die.

[mb]

The first is about just Rand, not anyone else.

 

Perrin is mentioned only once in the Karaethon Cycle (of the ones so far revealed). (Knife of Daggers Chapter 4)

Mat just twice; same prophecy mentioning Perrin and Crossroads of Twilight Chapter 24.

The rest revealed are about just Rand.

 

Mat dying and living again, that was already fulfilled. (Rahvin hunt)

Robert Jordan told so.

And Mat is planed to survive Tarmon Gaidon. (Outrigger novels planned about him & Tuon)

 

Min's viewing, the touching part I take was fulfilled in the Moridin incident at the end of Crown of Swords.

 

The marked part I take to be literal markings; those have also been fulfilled.  Herons near the end of Great Hunt; Dragons when he went through Rhuidean.

 

[zanotam]

The first is about just Rand, not anyone else.

 

Perrin is mentioned only once in the Karaethon Cycle (of the ones so far revealed). (Knife of Daggers Chapter 4)

Mat just twice; same prophecy mentioning Perrin and Crossroads of Twilight Chapter 24.

The rest revealed are about just Rand.

 

Mat dying and living again, that was already fulfilled. (Rahvin hunt)

Robert Jordan told so.

And Mat is planed to survive Tarmon Gaidon. (Outrigger novels planned about him & Tuon)

 

Min's viewing, the touching part I take was fulfilled in the Moridin incident at the end of Crown of Swords.

 

The marked part I take to be literal markings; those have also been fulfilled.  Herons near the end of Great Hunt; Dragons when he went through Rhuidean.

 

 

Wow, did you even REALLY read my post? How do you know those prophecies aren't already fulfilled? Are you seriously arguing that there can be only ONE meaning and ONE interpretation of every verse?

[Roxinos]

I'm actually going to say that, yeah. In the case of the Karaethon Cycle, there is really only one meaning for each line. The meaning is just not always obvious because some words may be referring to something not obvious (like the "people of the Dragon" referring to the Aiel).

 

Sorry, dude. Sure, you could find links to other characters, but that by no means indicates the validity of those links. It's like numerology. If you look hard enough, you can find numbers you want to find in anything.

[Mr Ares]

Excerpt from the KC:

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

 

The part about the Dragons, "remembrance lost" and "the price he must pay" are great references to Mat and Rand

No, they are great references to just Rand. Mat hasn't been marked with Dragons or Herons. It does not refer to Mat. I agree with Roxinos and mb (a sentence I never thought I'd be typing). It refers only to Rand.

[zanotam]

Oh well. Who knows, there is a prophecy in book 5 or 6 (can't remember which) that clearly refers to Aviendha, Min, and Elayne and then says something about "The one who is dead yet lives". I'm trying to stay optimistic, I'm trying!

[Kadere]

Once the heron, to set his path He was branded with the first heron at the Eye.  The events at the Eye set him on the path that has led, almost inevitably, to the present.  That was the first time he channeled knowingly, the first time that he openly declared his fight against the Dark One, his first real confrontation with Ishamael.  (This is a mark which allowed him to live, as he defeated Ishamael and survived the use of the Eye)

 

Not to take away from your post, but the first heron was given to him in TGH when he was in the Portal Stone world and Ba'alzamon came to him while he was standing guard over Hurin and Loial. Ba'alzamon makes his sword heat up and when he wakes the heron is burned into his palm.

[zanotam]

Not to take away from your post, but the first heron was given to him in TGH when he was in the Portal Stone world and Ba'alzamon came to him while he was standing guard over Hurin and Loial. Ba'alzamon makes his sword heat up and when he wakes the heron is burned into his palm.

 

-sigh-

 

You're right, of course.  My post should be altered to say this:

 

Once the heron, to set his path He was branded with the first heron following events at the Eye.  The events at the Eye, and his choice to accompany Ingtar, set him on the path that has led, almost inevitably, to the present.  He had finally acknowledged that he could channel, had received the Dragon Banner, and openly declared his fight against the Dark One, following his first real confrontation with Ishamael.  Ishamael's reappearance following what Rand thought was his death at the Eyes marked the real scope of this beginning confrontation.  (This is a mark which allowed him to live, as he had defeated Ishamael and survived the use of the Eye, and was beginning to accept that he is the Dragon Reborn.)

 

I screwed up the timing because I tie it to events at the Eye in my mind.  But you are entirely correct.

 

I'm not arguing that the normal interpretation is wrong, but the part about the Dragons, well the second part after those parts fit what happened to Mat when Rand was getting the Dragons very well. Remembrance lost and Price he shall pay are both perfect fits for what happened to Mat in the twisted door ter'angreal IN ADDITION to what happened to Rand in the glass columns, and we'll see, but I just don't think that it's that simple, most things never seem to be that simple when prophecies are involved.

[Roxinos]

...but I just don't think that it's that simple, most things never seem to be that simple when prophecies are involved.

 

According to what? They've always been that simple in tWoT. We've never had anything to suggest that the prophecies refer to anything beyond their correct interpretation.

 

...well the second part after those parts fit what happened to Mat when Rand was getting the Dragons very well. Remembrance lost and Price he shall pay are both perfect fits for what happened to Mat in the twisted door ter'angreal IN ADDITION to what happened to Rand in the glass columns...

 

Numerology, zan. You can find links in anything. Just because it fits someone else as well does not mean that it is referencing them.

[zanotam]

...but I just don't think that it's that simple, most things never seem to be that simple when prophecies are involved.

 

According to what? They've always been that simple in tWoT. We've never had anything to suggest that the prophecies refer to anything beyond their correct interpretation.

 

...well the second part after those parts fit what happened to Mat when Rand was getting the Dragons very well. Remembrance lost and Price he shall pay are both perfect fits for what happened to Mat in the twisted door ter'angreal IN ADDITION to what happened to Rand in the glass columns...

 

Numerology, zan. You can find links in anything. Just because it fits someone else as well does not mean that it is referencing them.

 

Fine, but the prophecies never are fulfilled how we think they will, even knowing what they refer to the prophecies strewn throughout the books and already fulfilled are very odd and mysterious.

[Roxinos]

But when they are fulfilled, we've always known. We didn't know what "Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost./Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay." meant until we got to that part in the story. Then when it passed, we were well aware of what it meant. Same with the "people of the Dragon." We didn't know it referred to the Aiel until the Aiel said it was their secret name. Then it was made perfectly clear.

 

This passage is one prophecy that has been fulfilled. We know what it means.

[zanotam]

Remembrance lost and Price he shall pay are both perfect fits for what happened to Mat in the twisted door ter'angreal IN ADDITION to what happened to Rand in the glass columns, and we'll see, but I just don't think that it's that simple, most things never seem to be that simple when prophecies are involved.

 

Remembrance lost?  Maybe.  The price he must pay ... perhaps.  But Mat has not been marked with any Dragons, or any herons, and those markings are referred to in each sentence of this prophecy.

 

It is not about Mat.  It is about Rand, and it has been fulfilled, in its entirety.  He has all four marks.

 

Interestingly, the hand that was blown off was his left.  That is the hand/arm that is marked on all Aiel chiefs; that Dragon was the one "for remembrance lost".  That remembrance is no longer lost ... he made the knowledge available for all.  And now, most of the Dragon is gone ...

 

The heron that "named him true" was on the hand that was lost.  Now that his identity is confirmed by a variety of prophecies, and acknowledged by the world, it is no longer necessary ...

 

I'm not suggesting a causative effect here, but the symbolism is interesting.

 

Interestingly, one marking that I interpret as marking his death and one that I interpret as marking his life is on each hand, so, even with his left hand lost, he still has one marking death (the Dragon for the price he must pay) and one marking life (the heron that set his path).  His path is still set through death, but it may well end with life again.

 

I wasn't implying anything about the Dragons or the Herons, I was simply pointing out that there were some doubles in there, "Remembrance Lost" being Mat's memories and "the price he must pay" is of course the fact that Mat had to pay a price for what he got whether he wanted it or not (And he was stupid enough not to agree on a price beforehand apparently). I vaguely noticed this a few read throughs ago, but the fact that "to die and live again" came soon after that part of the prophecy was shown in whole really jogged the connection for me. I'm NOT saying that Mat is the DR, I've never said that and never will. I AM saying and will continue to point out that LTT was a major channeler, a general, and damn lucky. Rand will not be able to win Tarmon Gai'din without Mat or even likely make it to it. Mat is lucky and a skilled general, Rand is lucky and a channeler, but the intertwining of Rand's and Mat's fates should be obvious. In fact, one of the repeated patterns throughout the series is that Perrin is kind of separate from Rand and Mat. Right in EotW, Mat and Rand are in one group and Perrin is in another after they flee from Aridhol. Perinn leaves Tear to go to the Two Rivers (keeping Rand from getting distracted) and Mat stays with him, even when he goes to Rhuidean, where Mat gains lost knowledge and pays a great price, after being told to go there by people who told him he will die and live again. Mat keeps an eye on Elayne and Nynaeve, both presumably important, at Rand's behest. Mat is directly Tied to Rand and his fate as the DR, more so than Perrin who is off on his own most of the time.

[Roxinos]

Please learn to use paragraphs. Walls of text are very difficult to read.