Powersharing

[Mr Ares]

If Lewis were arguing the point I believe he would say that the DO (the evil) is essentially pursuing something "good" in a bad way...He wants freedom (from the bore), he is powerful so he's not really after that...he wants to be worshipped which basically means he wants ppl to "love" him. Freedom and love in themselves are good things, but he is going after them in a bad way.

I disagree. He doesn't want love, because when He breaks free there will be no-one around to love him. He wants control. He wants power. Including the power to smash the universe into little bits, and destroy time.

 

Badness is, so to speak, itself:  goodness is only spoiled badness. And there must be something bad first before it can be spoiled.

[Builder]

Wow, so when the DO wins he and Ishy will be energy beings that will go around having...fun... ... :o

[Bela]

Wow, so when the DO wins he and Ishy will be energy beings that will go around having...fun... ... :o

 

Yes, they will play bumper cars in T'A'R.

[Hallow]

Wow, so when the DO wins he and Ishy will be energy beings that will go around having...fun... ... :o

 

Again with the energy thing? Really?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Okay minus the sarcasm RAW and actually answering the question I really meant, do you think in a world such as Wheel of Time. where existence is guided by a mechanism that strives for balance, that evil is necessary?

 

Necessary ... for what?

 

What is the purpose of the Wheel?  Tell me that, and I'll tell you if evil is "necessary" or not.

 

Oh, and you'd have to define "evil" too.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

If the DO is freed what happens?  Is the Creator's power tied to the Wheel, so he loses if the DO is freed?  Or will the DO's release spark a cosmic battle between the DO and the Creator?  What is the DO's ultimate goal?  Is is to break the Wheel?  To kill the Creator?  To make a dark kingdom?  To destroy everything?  To create linear time?  There are too many unknowns about the Creator, the Wheel, and the DO to make any real progress in this.  Everything must be based on assumptions because we don't know the nature of the Creator, Wheel, or DO.

 

For an example of how little we know, consider balefire.  In the War of Shadow, both sides stop using it.  If the DO wanted to destroy the Pattern he could have ordered his minions do it with balefire.  He didn't, because we know they stopped using it.*  Later in the present, the DO asks Demandred if he will use balefire, but He doesn't give orders to unravel the pattern with it.  It doesn't seem like the DO (or Moridin, for that matter) would be satisfied with the destruction of the world through balefire, or he would have ordered his Chosen to do it (by lying to them about the results).  So, why doesn't the DO want to use balefire?  Because the result - the unraveling of the Pattern - is not what He wants.

 

*or they refused a direct order from the DO, which is unlikely

 

 

My best guess is that the DO needs to wait for a certain moment (the same moment Rand was born for) when he will be able to free himself in a particular way that will not destroy the world outright.

[RobertAlexWillis]

In the War of Shadow, both sides stop using it.  If the DO wanted to destroy the Pattern he could have ordered his minions do it with balefire.  He didn't, because we know they stopped using it.

 

Actually, in the Prologue to LoC, the Dark One asked Demandred if he would be willing to unleash balefire in the DO's service ...

 

Both sides stopped using it because most of the Dark One's minions want to keep the world roughly intact.  I imagine the DO knows that if he starts ordering people to destroy the world, they would, in fact, start to disobey him.  So, the fact that he didn't order everyone to start using it just means he understands human nature, not that he doesn't want the world destroyed.

[Builder]

How does the DO know human nature so well? He's never been human as we know it, and I don't think he is now either.

[RobertAlexWillis]

He has talked with humans?  Like all of his followers?  For umpteen turnings of the Wheel?

 

Just because he isn't human himself doesn't mean that he can't predict their behavior.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Actually, in the Prologue to LoC, the Dark One asked Demandred if he would be willing to unleash balefire in the DO's service ...

I mentioned that...

 

Both sides stopped using it because most of the Dark One's minions want to keep the world roughly intact.  I imagine the DO knows that if he starts ordering people to destroy the world, they would, in fact, start to disobey him.

I covered that as well.  The DO could lie about the effects of balefire:

UNLEASH BALEFIRE AND THE PATTERN WILL WEAKEN.  USE BALEFIRE TO SET ME FREE.  I bet Moridin is insane enough to do it if the DO said so.  Some others might be as well.

 

So, the fact that he didn't order everyone to start using it just means he understands human nature, not that he doesn't want the world destroyed.

I'm saying that the DO doesn't want to destroy the world with balefire.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I covered that as well.  The DO could lie about the effects of balefire: UNLEASH BALEFIRE AND THE PATTERN WILL WEAKEN.  USE BALEFIRE TO SET ME FREE.

 

And his followers would know that he was lying ... they do know how balefire works, you know.

 

I bet Moridin is insane enough to do it if the DO said so.

 

I'm sure he is.  He also isn't powerful enough on his own.

 

Some others might be as well.

 

Doubt it.  The Forsaken we've all seen are clearly out for themselves.  They are trying to use the Dark One to enhance their own power.

 

I'm saying that the DO doesn't want to destroy the world with balefire.

 

And I'm saying that he probably doesn't care how it gets destroyed, he just knows his followers won't do it that way.  He has to trick them.  So, he doesn't tell them to balefire the world because he knows they wouldn't do it, not because he has a problem with the method.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

And his followers would know that he was lying ... they do know how balefire works, you know.

Maybe...maybe.  We know He hasn't tried, and we know that He can do things to people to make them obey.  So can Moridin: mindtraps and compulsion provide all of the persuasion needed to make a balefire-wielding army.  It seems like an obvious solution if the DO simply wants to destroy everything.

 

And I'm saying that he probably doesn't care how it gets destroyed, he just knows his followers won't do it that way.  He has to trick them.  So, he doesn't tell them to balefire the world because he knows they wouldn't do it, not because he has a problem with the method.

How does he know they won't do it?  The only time we see the DO ask, his minion says "so shall I obey".

From LoC Prologue:

WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

 

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire. Until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce—there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter—each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule.

 

Another point pricked him. The Great Lord already knew how Rahvin had died. And seemed to know more of Asmodean than he. “As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey.” His muscles might be jerking, but his voice was rock steady. His knees began to blister from the hot stone, yet the flesh might as well have been someone else’s.

 

SO YOU SHALL.

 

“Great Lord, the Dragon can be destroyed.” A dead man could not wield balefire again, and perhaps then the Great Lord would see no need for it.

 

Based on this, Demandred is more scared of disobeying the DO than he is of using balefire.  Furthermore, although the DO asks Demandred if he will use balefire, it is not formed as an order to destroy the Pattern.  Also, here we see evidence that the DO doesn't think his minions will say no.  So, why hasn't he asked for total destruction with balefire?  I can only think it is because he doesn't want to try, which tells me that the DO doesn't want at least 1 of the following:

  1) the Pattern is unraveled

  2) civilization is destroyed

  3) millions die

We know the DO does want #2 and #3, so that leaves #1 (unless I'm forgetting the effects of balefire).

 

It is also possible that the DO only wants to destroy the world after he is freed.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Maybe...maybe.  We know He hasn't tried, and we know that He can do things to people to make them obey.  So can Moridin: mindtraps and compulsion provide all of the persuasion needed to make a balefire-wielding army.  It seems like an obvious solution if the DO simply wants to destroy everything.

 

That is easier said than done.  How many of the Forsaken are going to hang around when they find out that everyone is just getting mindtrapped?  Zero.  He might get five or six before that happened, and then what?

 

The Forsaken are working hard because they think they are getting something out of it.

 

No, its not that simple.  That Dark One needs the willing cooperation of as many people as he can get within the Pattern.  For that, he has to lie to them.

 

How does he know they won't do it?  The only time we see the DO ask, his minion says "so shall I obey".

 

LOL ... of course they're not going to say "no" right there in front of him.  Do you think he really doesn't know that they're in it for their own power?

 

Based on this, Demandred is more scared of disobeying the DO than he is of using balefire.  Furthermore, although the DO asks Demandred if he will use balefire, it is not formed as an order to destroy the Pattern.  Also, here we see evidence that the DO doesn't think his minions will say no.  So, why hasn't he asked for total destruction with balefire?

 

There is a big difference between what the Dark One said to Demandred, and saying "Blow up the whole world with balefire".

 

Think of it this way.  The Dark One always had one guy in on the whole plan; Ishamael.  But now, with Ishy gone and not yet recycled, he needs a replacement.  Demandred seems to be in charge for the interim.  This is more like the Dark One sounding Demdandred out.  How will he react to the whole plan?  We get to see his thoughts.

 

I like this one in particular.

 

If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule.

 

Thats what he's thinking, even when, "As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey," is on his lips. Do you honestly think Demandred would be willing to destroy the world if the Dark One told him to?  I don't.  I think he'd say, "As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey," walk out, and never be seen or heard from again.

 

The Dark One gauged his reaction, pretty accurately it seems, because he never brings it up again, and soon, Ishy is back in charge.  If Demandred had been willing to really go crazy (not reluctantly willing to say what he knew he had to), we might have seen him as nae'blis and Moridin in a mindtrap.

 

The Forsaken value their own hides above all else.  Asmo is a great case in point.  Lanfear openly told Rand she'd challenge the Dark One with him.  No, these people, Ishy excepted, would not go in for destroying the world.  But that is definitely what the Dark One wants.

 

Now, in the practical sense?  Unless both sides are using it rampantly, its not likely to ever actually work; there aren't enough bad guys who know balefire anymore, and they don't have tons of angreal and sa'angreal like back in the day.  The good guys seem to have all the big guns.  So, that Dark One isn't going to scare away his minions by trying to force them to do something they don't want to.  Much better to work on other options, and keep them in the dark.

 

Finally, just because a plan would obviously work doesn't mean the Dark One is going to do it.  13/13 turning all the wondergirls at Falme before Rand got there would have been a bloody good plan.  Instead of just turning them over to Suroth, Ishy should have been waiting on the other side of that Waygate with 13 Black Ajah and Myrddraal.  No way Egwene, Nynaeve, or Elayne would have gotten away then.  Turn them, send Egwene to Seanchan with a Darkfriend sul'dam, send Nynaeve to lure Rand into the trap (because Ishy might not have know Rand was already on the way there) and send Elayne back to the Tower.  As a bonus, you capture Min and get her cool viewing power ... either she resists and dies or you can torture her into submission.  And I wonder what the Dark One would have gotten if he had distilled her mind like he did Fain's? 

 

In short, you'd have ended with powerful pawns in all the right places ... Rand would be screwed if that had happened.  Ishy had the knowledge of the girls potential for helping Rand; he is the one who gave the orders for Liandrin to take them.  He just didn't follow through.  And there's no reason except that he's not actually that great a tactician.

[Jethro]

Finally, just because a plan would obviously work doesn't mean the Dark One is going to do it.  13/13 turning all the wondergirls at Falme before Rand got there would have been a bloody good plan.

 

While I still disagree about the Great Lords motives for complete destruction I do agree with this comment. Unravelling the Pattern while the Great Lord is trapped by it might have consequences. Also, the Great Lord will be aware of exactly what the Wheel is capable of; he probably thinks if he had Rand turned it would turn out, just on the off chance, that 100 years ago an Aes Sedai discovered how to remove the "turned" status, and that Aes Sedai would show up and bring Rand back to himself just at the exact moment where the Great Lords plans are most fragile. I can definitely see why the Shadow is going the long way around this battle rather than just kill Rand off; Rand is a Hero with a capital H, meaning anything could happen around him. Better to steal his assets first, or infect them so they blow up in his face when he needs them most.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Unravelling the Pattern while the Great Lord is trapped by it might have consequences.

 

Why?  He's not in the Pattern.  It's not like the Pattern is a house with him "trapped" inside, and if you knock it down, it will fall on him.

 

Also, the Great Lord will be aware of exactly what the Wheel is capable of; he probably thinks if he had Rand turned it would turn out, just on the off chance, that 100 years ago an Aes Sedai discovered how to remove the "turned" status, and that Aes Sedai would show up and bring Rand back to himself just at the exact moment where the Great Lords plans are most fragile.

 

Well, of course he ...

 

But then if ...

 

...

...

...

 

What exactly did you just say?  ???

 

I can definitely see why the Shadow is going the long way around this battle rather than just kill Rand off; Rand is a Hero with a capital H, meaning anything could happen around him.

 

And you better not cross a Capital, fool!

 

Better to steal his assets first, or infect them so they blow up in his face when he needs them most.

 

That sentence made sense, and is actually correct, too.

 

[Jethro]

Well, of course he ...

 

But then if ...

 

...

...

...

 

What exactly did you just say?  Huh

 

Sorry RAW I dont speak dumbass. Unlucky for you, there arent any translaters on the internet. I tried searching for one, but couldnt find it, so you'll either have to get someone to take you to the shop and buy one, or grow up and get over the fact that I used a swear word against you in a different thread and stop trying to ridicule me on every single thing I write.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Awwww, did da widdle Jeffwo get his feeewings huwt?

 

Maybe you don't speak dumbass, but you apparently don't speak English either.

 

As for thinking that my reaction is some form of retaliation for a perceived insult in another thread, know this.  I treat stupidity as it deserves to be treated, no matter its source, including when it comes from me.  It has nothing to do with what you think is our "history".  Do you honestly think you are significant enough to me for me to bother carrying a grudge?  I assure you, such is not the case.  I don't care who you are.  I'm reacting to what you said.

 

You're not the first to swear at me, and I'm sure you won't be the last.  People are often angry when I point out their silliness.

 

That sentence was really and truly bad.  Try harder.  You're doing yourself a disservice by putting that kind of thing where everyone can read it.

[Roxinos]

It was a pretty bad sentence, but this is what I've gleaned from it.

 

It seems Jethro thinks that the Great Lord is unaware of how the Wheel works.

 

He thinks that when the Great Lord looks at the Wheel he sees a sort of retroactive continuity generator. Or in short, the Wheel retcons the Pattern so that Rand will win. Or at least, so that Rand has a fighting chance.

 

So if the Great Lord managed to get thirteen Dreadlords and thirteen Myrddraal together and manage to turn Rand to the Shadow, the Wheel would just retcon an Aes Sedai who discovered how to reverse that "turning to the Shadow" effect somehow some hundred years prior to Rand getting turned to the Shadow. That Aes Sedai would magically show up when Rand got his ass Shadowfied and turn him back to the Light.

 

Not that this is actually what Jethro thinks about how the Wheel works. But he proposes that's a possibility for how the Great Lord thinks the Wheel works. I'm not certain the purpose of proposing such a thing, but I haven't been paying attention to the whole argument.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

RAW you are mean.

[RobertAlexWillis]

RAW you are mean.

 

You aren't the first to say so.

[water_seeker]

RAW you are mean.

 

But funny...sometimes.

 

You're doing yourself a disservice by putting that kind of thing where everyone can read it.

 

That made me laugh.

[Jethro]

You must really have a shit life RAW to be such a cunt on here

[Roxinos]

NO U.

[Jethro]

Take your nose out of his arse rox

[Roxinos]

NO U.

 

Edit: Seriously, do you not see the futility of this back and forth of name-calling? I'm making fun of all of you, RAW included. If someone's argument is stupid, then just destroy their argument. Your logic should stand on its own weight. If you get frustrated, but don't want to seem as if you're giving up, then just wait until you can calm yourself down before you post. And instead of making a short post insulting someone, go back to the beginning and destroy their points one-by-one.