Women Forsaken and their Aes Sedai defeaters?

[Jethro]

I'd like to see at least one Frosaken taken down by a non-channeler just to show that channeling isn't everything.

 

The problem is, against a really experienced channeler, channeling is often the only weapon that will be successful.

 

Often is not always, the Green Man killed Balthamal without channeling.  It would be difficult for a non-channeler to kill an experienced channeler but not impossible.  I think a ta'veren with an anti-one power terangreal, the memories of many experienced warriors and lots luck on his side just might be the one who could pull it off.

 

Booyah. Mat vs Demandred wouldnt be bad but rather as generals rather than a one on one.

[Sab]

Well wouldn't put it past Fain to kill one.  After all if he is near he would try and kill one if he thought they would kill Rand. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Often is not always, the Green Man killed Balthamal without channeling.

 

Actually, the Nym's ability to make things grow is based in the Power.

 

Just in case anyone thought I was making this up ...

 

The Nym, another construct, were sentient beings with the ability to utilize the One Power fir the benefit of plants and growing things.

 

Guide, p.31

 

Edited to include the reference.

[Luckers]

I kind of have to take a small issue with this ... Aviendha has learned the weaves that Elayne and Nynaeve extorted from Moghedien, but she hasn't had anything like formal training in fighting duels with the Power.  Taking on Graendal would be far, far different than chucking fireballs into a mass of soldiers.

 

When I said 'Forsaken Level Knowledge' i was not meaning to imply that her knowledge or training was equal to the Forsaken, but that she had been trained in things that were at the same level as they.

 

I do agree with the distinction you were making--which is in part what will make the fight interesting.

 

Quote

She also, with an angreal and ter'angreal directly designed to aid in a fight with the One Power, barely survived against a woman weaker than her original strength--much less her strength with the angreal

 

Thats what I was referring to. You keep mentioning that Cyndane is weaker than she was, and that is of no importance in this debate at all. The fact that Cyndane still won despite the reduction is of no importance. Anything to do with Lanfear doesnt apply to this topic because she no longer exists.

 

Ok, let me try to clarify again--i was saying that Alivia was stronger than Cyndane even without the angreal. With the angreal she was much much stronger. That was my point. That was what i meant by "a woman weaker than her original strength".

 

Yes, Cyndane's reduction in strength shows that she is weaker than Alivia, but I never even mentioned that. When i spoke of Alivia barely surviving a fight with a woman who was weaker than her original strength, i was speaking of Alivia [with an angreal] barely surviving a fight with a woman who was weaker than her [Alivia without an angreal] original strnegth.

 

Rand has the intention of surviving the Last Battle. Since he knows he must die to live, and that Alivia will help him die, then he could easily use those facts to convince Nynaeve to give up the angreal.

 

Does he? His comments to Min and his own thoughts seem to disagree with you.

 

EDIT for a question. Are Moghedien and Nynaeve on par with each other, power level wise? And does anyone know how Moghedien compares to Graendal?

 

Nynaeve was equal to Moghedian in tSR. She was not yet at her full strength then, so we can assume she is now stronger than Moghedian. Moghedian is weaker than Graendal, though we do not know by how much.

 

Graendal is the second strongest woman, so it is probably Graendal>Nynaeve>Moghedien, in terms of raw strength.  Which I again say, is less important than many other factors.

 

I don't nessasarily disagree--but I would add that its not certain. We don't know how much strength Nynaeve has gained, or how much weaker Moghedian is than Graendal.

 

You do know that Lanfear no longer exists as Lanfear, right? So whatever strength she had will never ever affect Cyndane in any battle. Why does the fact that Cyndane is weaker come into any possible discussion on Cyndane squaring up to someone?

 

It doesn't except in the suggestion that Alivia was as strong as Lanfear--I believe this suggestion, but i never raised it in this thread, nor do i account it relevant one way or the other. That was your misunderstanding.

 

Okay lets look at something here. All the Chosen Rand has fought have all been "strong, perhaps as strong as Rand hismelf" while still having a difference between each other. The same goes for the women except for Lanfear in her original body. How much stronger than Moghedien would you say Graendal is? Moderately? Considerably? Going off your post saying Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien so late in the series, and the fact that so late on it is noted that Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve, then I personally would say theres not much at all seperating Alivia and Graendal on power levels. Alivia has spent 400 years using the Power as a weapon; I dont think its much of a stretch in thinking Alivias has mastered using the Power as a weapon on the same level that Graendal might have.

 

If anything I'd say Alivia was stronger than Graendal. Of course Graendal has an angreal, so sorry about that.

 

As for them being equal in their mastery of using the Power as a weapon, I'm sorry but that is directly disproven by WH. Which is what i stated earlier.

 

Alivia (with an angreal and ter'angreal directly created to help in a channeling fight) barely survived a confrontation with Cyndane (who had no angreal). Which, RJ stated, was directly because of Cyndane's superior knowledge of the Power.

 

So, how on earth would Alivia, without her toys, defeat Graendal (who does have an angreal).

 

I always thought that a Graendal and Elayne matchup could happen.  Elayne is supposed to be quite beautiful not to mention a queen now.  So Graendal might actually come after her whether as a personal quest to make her a pretty or under orders to take her down.  I don't think Elayne could match her in strength of course, but that doesn't mean she can't win, especially if Birgitte is with her and possibly Avhienda. 

 

I doubt the Shadow would allow Graendal to simply take Elayne. Also, there is the Sylvase=Cyndane theory to be concidered.

 

we don't know that Alivia is stronger than Cyndane. She's only described as considerably stronger than Nynaeve, not as much stronger. Alivia is probably only as strong as Graendal.

 

There is evidence suggesting it--but its not really relevant to the point i was making. I agree that we don't know for certain.

 

Quote from: RobertAlexWillis

The problem with Alivia is that she has only really studied damane style fighting, which is generally throwing lightning and fireballs and earthquakes at non-channelers.  Fighting against channelers is far different, and Alivia, no matter her age, doesn't have either experience or training there.

 

One of the Seanchan general references a battle during one of their civil wars that had 400 damane on both sides. Alivia's old enough to have fought in that, hell, she's old enough to have fought in the tail end of the Consolidation. Are you really arguing she's never fought other women with the power during that time?

 

The way damane are employed in an army (on both sides of a fight) is different to a one on one duel between individual channalers. Damane, presumable, were very rarely used for that--they were either acting as a part of an army effort, or capturing marath'damane--which would probably involve the use of many damane to assure their safe capture--oh and not to mention they were untrained.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

He didn't seem to have much trouble killing that Aiel woman that he was sleeping with.

CoT 29. Mat orders Renna's death, and then thinks never again, even if it's his life.

[Thor]

I kind of have to take a small issue with this ... Aviendha has learned the weaves that Elayne and Nynaeve extorted from Moghedien, but she hasn't had anything like formal training in fighting duels with the Power.  Taking on Graendal would be far, far different than chucking fireballs into a mass of soldiers.

 

When I said 'Forsaken Level Knowledge' i was not meaning to imply that her knowledge or training was equal to the Forsaken, but that she had been trained in things that were at the same level as they.

 

I do agree with the distinction you were making--which is in part what will make the fight interesting.

 

Quote

She also, with an angreal and ter'angreal directly designed to aid in a fight with the One Power, barely survived against a woman weaker than her original strength--much less her strength with the angreal

 

Thats what I was referring to. You keep mentioning that Cyndane is weaker than she was, and that is of no importance in this debate at all. The fact that Cyndane still won despite the reduction is of no importance. Anything to do with Lanfear doesnt apply to this topic because she no longer exists.

 

Ok, let me try to clarify again--i was saying that Alivia was stronger than Cyndane even without the angreal. With the angreal she was much much stronger. That was my point. That was what i meant by "a woman weaker than her original strength".

 

Yes, Cyndane's reduction in strength shows that she is weaker than Alivia, but I never even mentioned that. When i spoke of Alivia barely surviving a fight with a woman who was weaker than her original strength, i was speaking of Alivia [with an angreal] barely surviving a fight with a woman who was weaker than her [Alivia without an angreal] original strnegth.

 

Rand has the intention of surviving the Last Battle. Since he knows he must die to live, and that Alivia will help him die, then he could easily use those facts to convince Nynaeve to give up the angreal.

 

Does he? His comments to Min and his own thoughts seem to disagree with you.

 

EDIT for a question. Are Moghedien and Nynaeve on par with each other, power level wise? And does anyone know how Moghedien compares to Graendal?

 

Nynaeve was equal to Moghedian in tSR. She was not yet at her full strength then, so we can assume she is now stronger than Moghedian. Moghedian is weaker than Graendal, though we do not know by how much.

 

Graendal is the second strongest woman, so it is probably Graendal>Nynaeve>Moghedien, in terms of raw strength.  Which I again say, is less important than many other factors.

 

I don't nessasarily disagree--but I would add that its not certain. We don't know how much strength Nynaeve has gained, or how much weaker Moghedian is than Graendal.

 

You do know that Lanfear no longer exists as Lanfear, right? So whatever strength she had will never ever affect Cyndane in any battle. Why does the fact that Cyndane is weaker come into any possible discussion on Cyndane squaring up to someone?

 

It doesn't except in the suggestion that Alivia was as strong as Lanfear--I believe this suggestion, but i never raised it in this thread, nor do i account it relevant one way or the other. That was your misunderstanding.

 

Okay lets look at something here. All the Chosen Rand has fought have all been "strong, perhaps as strong as Rand hismelf" while still having a difference between each other. The same goes for the women except for Lanfear in her original body. How much stronger than Moghedien would you say Graendal is? Moderately? Considerably? Going off your post saying Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien so late in the series, and the fact that so late on it is noted that Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve, then I personally would say theres not much at all seperating Alivia and Graendal on power levels. Alivia has spent 400 years using the Power as a weapon; I dont think its much of a stretch in thinking Alivias has mastered using the Power as a weapon on the same level that Graendal might have.

 

If anything I'd say Alivia was stronger than Graendal. Of course Graendal has an angreal, so sorry about that.

 

As for them being equal in their mastery of using the Power as a weapon, I'm sorry but that is directly disproven by WH. Which is what i stated earlier.

 

Alivia (with an angreal and ter'angreal directly created to help in a channeling fight) barely survived a confrontation with Cyndane (who had no angreal). Which, RJ stated, was directly because of Cyndane's superior knowledge of the Power.

 

So, how on earth would Alivia, without her toys, defeat Graendal (who does have an angreal).

 

I always thought that a Graendal and Elayne matchup could happen.  Elayne is supposed to be quite beautiful not to mention a queen now.  So Graendal might actually come after her whether as a personal quest to make her a pretty or under orders to take her down.  I don't think Elayne could match her in strength of course, but that doesn't mean she can't win, especially if Birgitte is with her and possibly Avhienda. 

 

I doubt the Shadow would allow Graendal to simply take Elayne. Also, there is the Sylvase=Cyndane theory to be concidered.

 

we don't know that Alivia is stronger than Cyndane. She's only described as considerably stronger than Nynaeve, not as much stronger. Alivia is probably only as strong as Graendal.

 

There is evidence suggesting it--but its not really relevant to the point i was making. I agree that we don't know for certain.

 

Quote from: RobertAlexWillis

The problem with Alivia is that she has only really studied damane style fighting, which is generally throwing lightning and fireballs and earthquakes at non-channelers.  Fighting against channelers is far different, and Alivia, no matter her age, doesn't have either experience or training there.

 

One of the Seanchan general references a battle during one of their civil wars that had 400 damane on both sides. Alivia's old enough to have fought in that, hell, she's old enough to have fought in the tail end of the Consolidation. Are you really arguing she's never fought other women with the power during that time?

 

The way damane are employed in an army (on both sides of a fight) is different to a one on one duel between individual channalers. Damane, presumable, were very rarely used for that--they were either acting as a part of an army effort, or capturing marath'damane--which would probably involve the use of many damane to assure their safe capture--oh and not to mention they were untrained.

 

 

 

there is absolutely no evidence that alivia is stronger than cyndane.

[Luckers]

There is, actually--look it up. There are many threads on it

 

But, as I said, its not relevant to the argument i was making--and as such not relevant to this thread. I regret referring to it in the first place.