Most rapid demise and a few other bits [possible bk 11 spoilers]

[trakand_01]

Rolan! Perrin never even stopped to see if he was a friend or not, he just thwacked him round the head with a 10lb hammer! I honestly thought he'd let him go when Faile explained. She didnt even seem to mourn him.

 

Also, earlier in the chapter (or maybe the chapter before, I forget), Perrin refers to Galina as 'Galina', but then later as Alyse, until Faile tells him who she was - slip up?

 

I am loving the Mat and Tuon thing by the way, I love her slow but sure realisation that he's more than she ever thought he was; 'a lion on a hilltop' she calls him when he's perusing the maps after their reunion with the Band.

 

I also found the tenderness which Nynaeve showed to Rand after his hand had gone very touching - she may be stern and trying to be fully Aes Sedai but she sometimes remembers who she was, who they all were. My respect grew a little for her then, along with the fact she had the balls to put Lan at the other side of the Borderlands from Sheinar and rouse support for him.

 

One thing I am starting to find grating however, is the Morgase / Maighdin fallacy. For god's sake, own up woman! All the comments about her being 'More like a Queen than a Lady's Maid'... enough!! and Balwer too - how much of an asset could he truly be if he told Perrin who/what he is/was?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rolan! Perrin never even stopped to see if he was a friend or not, he just thwacked him round the head with a 10lb hammer! I honestly thought he'd let him go when Faile explained. She didnt even seem to mourn him.

 

Perrin would have let him go, probably even thanked him, if Faile had gotten the chance to explain.  But she didn't.  And, at that point, there was no point in explaining, because it would only have burdened Perrin with the knowledge that he essentially killed an ally.  Faile and Lacile actually stabbed Kinhuin and Jhoradin in the back to make sure that they didn't kill Perrin.  It was a horrible choice to have to make, but those are the kind of decisions that war creates.  There was no time to try to get everyone to stop so she could explain.

 

Frankly, I think keeping her mouth shut after the fact is one of the bravest and most sensible things that Faile ever did.  You can bet she mourned Rolan, though.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Also, earlier in the chapter (or maybe the chapter before, I forget), Perrin refers to Galina as 'Galina', but then later as Alyse, until Faile tells him who she was - slip up?

 

Its in ch 26, and yep, its a slip.

 

I am loving the Mat and Tuon thing by the way, I love her slow but sure realisation that he's more than she ever thought he was; 'a lion on a hilltop' she calls him when he's perusing the maps after their reunion with the Band.

 

Mat's a bad man ... in a good way.  :)

 

I also found the tenderness which Nynaeve showed to Rand after his hand had gone very touching - she may be stern and trying to be fully Aes Sedai but she sometimes remembers who she was, who they all were. My respect grew a little for her then, along with the fact she had the balls to put Lan at the other side of the Borderlands from Sheinar and rouse support for him

 

Nynaeve as a married woman is head and shoulders above her former self, but she's always had a tender core.  Rand's body was hurt badly; but the fact that he simply shrugged it off may have helped Nynaeve finally understand how badly he has been damaged mentally and emotionally.

 

One thing I am starting to find grating however, is the Morgase / Maighdin fallacy. For god's sake, own up woman! All the comments about her being 'More like a Queen than a Lady's Maid'... enough!! and Balwer too - how much of an asset could he truly be if he told Perrin who/what he is/was?

 

I admit, I think that Balwer should have let it "slip" by now ... the only reason I can think of to still keep it secret is that Perrin already had a lot on his plate.  With Masema's forces decimated, the Shaido routed, and Faile recovered, perhaps now it will come out.

[trakand_01]

 

 

Mat's a bad man ... in a good way.   :)

 

 

That's ok, I like Bad Men  ;) :P

 

 

Nynaeve as a married woman is head and shoulders above her former self, but she's always had a tender core.  Rand's body was hurt badly; but the fact that he simply shrugged it off may have helped Nynaeve finally understand how badly he has been damaged mentally and emotionally.

 

You think it will soften her perception of him? She has him down as a hard, ice-hearted man these days. You think she now realises he's not, it's just his way of dealing with it, the way circumstances have moulded him? I hope so. Of all of them, I think Nyn's the one who can truly see Rand for who he was, rather than who he is, if she just puts the effort in. She's a massive asset to him - how wonderful to have a woman you've known for years who just happens to be an absolutely f***ing excellent healer!?

 

I also love how RJ builds up the introduction of a character we havent seen for a while. I havent read bk11 before, but i'm having a fair few of these at the moment.

 

Today for example, I've read about a 'sun-dark man with his hair in braids which ended in bells' which roused "oooh, Narishma!!" from me, 'a big man with dark hair hanging in waves to his shoulders' ("oooh! Logain!"), and something akin to 'a group of seven thousand renegade Whitecloaks' which puzzled me for a minute until I thought "oooooOOOOOOooooh!!! Galad!!".

 

I'm easily pleased  ;D

[MikeRiley]

In my latest re-read (and the first since reading book 11) the only reason I didn't look forward to book 11 was because of Rolan's fate. Him and the others were ready to leave when that battle started and I (wrongly) saw what Perrin did as murder. In my re-read, however, the only regrettable thing about his death was that Faile startled him. The first time through I took that as him stopping when he knew who was in front of him, but that was not really the case. Had Perrin not killed him, he would have been killed. It was a shame even so, it left me wondering if Robert Jordan just wanted to tell us what war really was like, or if he had somebody in mind when he created the character.

[Vambram]

Well, from my point of view, Rolan deserved to die. Was he as "bad" as the rest of the Shaido? Probably not. However, he was still willingly following the Shaido, and let us not forget that the only reason it appeared that Rolan was being nice or kind to Faile was because he wanted to have sex with her, and turn her into his mate.

[trakand_01]

Oh I agree entirely - in fact in Faile's POV when they were stuck down the building, when Morgase was trying to make the red fabric move (bless her soul she did so well!), Faile was panicking over Rolan finding them / looking for her and hampering their escape.

 

But in the very recent history or chapters that we'd read, Rolan played a very large part and it seemed a very very rapid killing off.

 

Aram, on the other hand, had it coming. He'd become annoying well before then - a testament to why the Tinkers should remain pacifists - reformed pacifists or believers of any cause tend to be overly fanatical about their beliefs to the detriment of themselves and those around them.

[Eleint]

Aram, on the other hand, had it coming. He'd become annoying well before then - a testament to why the Tinkers should remain pacifists - reformed pacifists or believers of any cause tend to be overly fanatical about their beliefs to the detriment of themselves and those around them.

 

While I agree that Aram had it coming and that he had fallen under the Prophet's sway, I disagree with this latter bit.  Elyas mentioned it in Winter's Heart, actually.  The issue isn't that he stopped believing in the Way of the Leaf, but that he had nothing to replace it with.  He just replaced his entire belief structure and society with 'following Perrin' and that just isn't enough.  He was thus susceptible to the Prophet's blandishments.

 

On the Prophet, his behavior reminds me a lot of Aridhol.  I don't recall, did he interact with Fain at all?

[Kaznen]

In my latest re-read (and the first since reading book 11) the only reason I didn't look forward to book 11 was because of Rolan's fate. Him and the others were ready to leave when that battle started and I (wrongly) saw what Perrin did as murder. In my re-read, however, the only regrettable thing about his death was that Faile startled him. The first time through I took that as him stopping when he knew who was in front of him, but that was not really the case. Had Perrin not killed him, he would have been killed. It was a shame even so, it left me wondering if Robert Jordan just wanted to tell us what war really was like, or if he had somebody in mind when he created the character.

 

It was a mix up on Perrin and Rolan's part but I don't think it was murder.  There was a battle going on and Rolan saw a wetlander heading, then charging toward them, and Perrin saw an Aiel dragging Faile, abusing her in his mind.

 

When Faile shouted Perrin's name I did take it as Rolan knowing he was her husband so he wasn't going to fight, but Faile didn't say, "Perrin, stop" or "Perrin, wait" so who was Perrin supposed to know he was charging at allies?

 

I did wish there could have been an argument with teh three brotherless and Gaul about Rand being the Car'a'carn.

[Elgee]

I was much more upset about Rolan's demise than about the Seafolk Tinkers (can't recall their name now) who committed mass suicide.

 

Vambram, Rolan was acting honourably within the strictures of his culture. He never once tried to force Faile, and was in fact planning to help her escape (but only once he realised that the Shaido had abandoned J'T).

[Jethro]

On the Prophet, his behavior reminds me a lot of Aridhol.  I don't recall, did he interact with Fain at all?

 

I dont remember Masema interacting with Fain but then again its been a while, and for all we know Fain could have been up to something with him off screen. My theory, though, is that Demandred is behind Masema and the Dragonsworn. I hope so anyway, it would make Demandred worth the wait so to speak.

 

Aram, on the other hand, had it coming. He'd become annoying well before then - a testament to why the Tinkers should remain pacifists - reformed pacifists or believers of any cause tend to be overly fanatical about their beliefs to the detriment of themselves and those around them.

 

I was dissapointed the way Arams story ended so abruptly. I liked tha idea of a Tinker who was very good with the sword, and I like how he seemed to think the sword could solve everything. The way Masema convinced Aram that Perrin was Shadowspawn makes me think even more that Demandred is controlling Masema, considering that in KoD Moridin issued the order to kill Mat and Perrin.

[trakand_01]

On the Prophet, his behavior reminds me a lot of Aridhol.  I don't recall, did he interact with Fain at all?

 

I dont remember Masema interacting with Fain but then again its been a while, and for all we know Fain could have been up to something with him off screen. My theory, though, is that Demandred is behind Masema and the Dragonsworn. I hope so anyway, it would make Demandred worth the wait so to speak.

 

 

Wasnt Masema originally a guard at the fortress where Fain was held prisoner in the basement, Fal Dara was it?

[Eleint]

Vambram, Rolan was acting honourably within the strictures of his culture. He never once tried to force Faile, and was in fact planning to help her escape (but only once he realised that the Shaido had abandoned J'T).

 

I personally wouldn't say honorably.  By his culture, Faile shouldn't've been a gai'shain in the first place, and I doubt you're allowed to feel up gai'shain and so on, that seems terribly un-Aiel.  While there are times when they end up together, all the stories we see have that happening after the gai'shain is released, when they aren't under the control of the other Aiel.  He was taking advantage of her being a prisoner.  While his 'admiration' may have been true enough, it's not a very good thing for him even by Aiel standards, far as I can say.

 

To be honest, Faile's behavior read a lot like Stockholm Syndrome to me.  Her shock and confusion at being jealous, and her link to him in spite of not loving him?  Classic.

[Elgee]

Vambram, Rolan was acting honourably within the strictures of his culture. He never once tried to force Faile, and was in fact planning to help her escape (but only once he realised that the Shaido had abandoned J'T).

 

I personally wouldn't say honorably.  By his culture, Faile shouldn't've been a gai'shain in the first place, and I doubt you're allowed to feel up gai'shain and so on, that seems terribly un-Aiel.  While there are times when they end up together, all the stories we see have that happening after the gai'shain is released, when they aren't under the control of the other Aiel.  He was taking advantage of her being a prisoner.  While his 'admiration' may have been true enough, it's not a very good thing for him even by Aiel standards, far as I can say.

 

Faile was taken with a knife in her hand. I'm not sure, but I don't think Aiel custom specifically says that non-Aiel CANNOT be taken gai'shain. What is against their custom, is to pass those who have been taken, on to someone else, or to keep them for longer than the year and a day. Once it becomes clear that this is what the Shaido are doing/planning, several of the Brotherless (Ronan included) start talking about breaking away from them.

 

We've heard of gai'shain marrying those they served, soon after their time is up, and even of men trying to get Maidens to make them gai'shain, to get close to them - i'm thinking there must be a certain amount of "feeling up" going on  ;)

 

Ronan even mentions to Faile several times that her husband shouldn't hold anything that happens during her year and a day against her. Now, this could of course be him taking a chance, but I doubt it. It looks more like he's "courting" her, but totally leaving the final decision up to her. Can't blame a man for trying, if what he is trying falls within the strictures of his culture. Contrast his behaviour to that of some of the other Aiel, who have attacked and raped gai'shain. 

 

I'm talking from memory here, btw - correct me if I'm wrong  ;)

 

To be honest, Faile's behavior read a lot like Stockholm Syndrome to me.  Her shock and confusion at being jealous, and her link to him in spite of not loving him?  Classic.

 

I doubt it - Ronan was just a hottie  ;D

 

Ronan (and I presume many of the other Brotherless, at least) are trying to hold to J'T. So they don't accept Rand as the Car'a'Caarn - that does not make them dishonourable. 

[Eleint]

Faile was taken with a knife in her hand. I'm not sure, but I don't think Aiel custom specifically says that non-Aiel CANNOT be taken gai'shain. What is against their custom, is to pass those who have been taken, on to someone else, or to keep them for longer than the year and a day. Once it becomes clear that this is what the Shaido are doing/planning, several of the Brotherless (Ronan included) start talking about breaking away from them.

 

Actually, this is wrong.  It is explicitly against Ji'e'toh to take someone as gai'shain unless they follow it.  Clan chiefs say this over and over in shock and horror, that the Shaido are taking Wetlanders as gai'shain.

 

As for the marrying gai'shain part, they explicitly marry -after- they are out of gai'shain status, for one.  Rolan was using his status as a captor to try to encourage Faile to succumb, which just doesn't seem very suitable to what they describe as Ji'e'toh.  His whole 'your husband wouldn't be able to say anything' honestly sounds like a line.

 

Again, everything about Faile's situation is against Ji'e'toh by all the evidence we have in the books.

[Elgee]

I'll concede this point:

 

Actually, this is wrong.  It is explicitly against Ji'e'toh to take someone as gai'shain unless they follow it.  Clan chiefs say this over and over in shock and horror, that the Shaido are taking Wetlanders as gai'shain.

 

;D

[AmbeRebmA]

 

I was dissapointed the way Arams story ended so abruptly. I liked tha idea of a Tinker who was very good with the sword, and I like how he seemed to think the sword could solve everything. The way Masema convinced Aram that Perrin was Shadowspawn makes me think even more that Demandred is controlling Masema, considering that in KoD Moridin issued the order to kill Mat and Perrin.

 

I disagree with your reasoning. Masema is your classic case of religious fanaticism, in which case the object of his obsession is The Dragon Reborn. Masema never needed ‘encouragement’ to spread his prophetic views, and was not entirely rational way before Falme and his fixation on the Dragon Reborn. Remember how he used to look at Rand when he thought he was Aiel in disguise? Most soldiers left the Aiel War behind them twenty years ago, but Masema never fully let go of the hate. After Falme, he just shifted his mania. On top of that, when Moiraine sent Masema and other Shienarans to Jehannah, Ghealdan was already in turmoil and perfect staging ground for Masema’s radial views without added Forsaken support. Also the fact that Masema though that Perrin was Shadowspawn – many people in Randland, including Aes Sedai consider yellow eyes on a man an aberration and associate it with Shadow.

 

And Aram is just a misguided young man, misfortunate enough to be born into a culture (Tuatha'an) where he didn’t belong.  I believe it’s at least partially Perrin’s fault for not dealing with Aram’s problems before it was too late – after all he was responsible for the path Aram took. Masema on the other hand, filled the holes in Aram’s value system, which resulted in immediate transfer of loyalties.

 

[Jethro]

And Aram is just a misguided young man, misfortunate enough to be born into a culture (Tuatha'an) where he didn’t belong

 

He did belong there, he just snapped when he watched his loved ones die. If I watched my loved ones die I'd want to learn how to kill those who did it as well, the exception is I wouldnt be allowed to do so.

 

Agree to disagree with the bit about Masema, I've already caused enough arguements about him without starting one on here hehe