Who is the naughty forsaken?

[MikeRiley]

It wouldn't matter if the mark made her a Chosen because she lacks the backbone and strength to claim the title.

[Osan`gar]

It wouldn't matter if the mark made her a Chosen because she lacks the backbone and strength to claim the title.

 

i do not necessrily disagree with you... my main thought is that the protection afforded her indicates a certain intrinsic value placed upon her... i am not sure where this thought leads but i would like to here some thoughts about why she is so valued and what it means ???

[Sab]

From the other thread:

 

"Alviarin already knows much of what goes on in the Tower. From the Great Lords PoV she is far from useless; manipulating the Amyrlin Seat is no easy feat, and someone capable of doing so on such a level of success as Alviarin did without being found out definitely has their uses. Of course, any female Chosen/Black Ajah would be good for the job, bu why should any other Black Ajah get the chance at something like this, when Alviarin has already proved herself?"

 

She isn't Forsaken, just a useful tool that is that the DO sees a benefit to keep alive.  She is the head of the BA, she has been tasked and knows things.  Killing her now at this critical point would mean, finding a replacement, retasking the replacement, etc.... More hassle then its worth right now, easier to just let Alviarin live.  Before this wouldn't be a problem (as we know Ishy killed the head of the BA before), but with the final battle so close he can't afford to have everything start over.

 

 

[MikeRiley]

She wasn't the Keeper anymore at that point so she wasn't exactly successful. Being the head of the Black Ajah is probably all that saved her.

[Luckers]

That depends on how you look at it. She lost the stole because she was doing what the Shadow wanted. Effectively her fall came about because she was doing exactly what they wanted her to do--and doing it well.

[lgautam]

Throwing that many trollocs at Rand wouldn't have failed if Lews Therin didn't take over and seize Saidin, an event nobody could have predicted. It could have been Taim, but it could just as easily be Semirhage. She was busy with Seanchan plots but that doesn't mean she couldn't make a trip to the Blight and send an army of trollocs to crush him with.

 

How could the attack be fatal for Rand? Even if Lews Therin hadn't seized control, even if Logain and the others hadn't been there for him, Rand could simply have made a gateway inside the manor and Traveled elsewhere along with the others in the room. Then, the only damage done would be a destroyed mansion.

[Luckers]

It's even more than that--the Forsaken just experienced getting their asses handed to them at the Cleansing. They knew Rand had Callandor and the Choedan Kal with him, and no reason to think he would not use them. At that stage they may not even have known the female Choedan Kal had been destroyed, not that its nessasary.

 

Effectively it makes no sense for any of the Forsaken to have sent those Shadowspawn. It was throwing them away.

[MikeRiley]

They might have thought he was still recovering from using that much of the power. That was the reason for his retreat to the mansion. The trollocs were ordered to keep silent, they only broke that order when they realized they were discovered. The Ogier weren't needed to give warning since Rand sensed them anyway, but the idea that they were ordered to keep silent suggests they had every intention of falling on him before he was aware of it and crushing him. Maybe they would have thought he'd stay to save the people in the mansion rather than turn around and abandon them and that would take time he didn't have.

[Luckers]

None of which addresses the fact that Callandor and the Choedan Kal were present, and that the Forsaken were aware of that.

 

 

[General Cauthon]

The trollocs were ordered to keep silent, they only broke that order when they realized they were discovered. The Ogier weren't needed to give warning since Rand sensed them anyway, but the idea that they were ordered to keep silent suggests they had every intention of falling on him before he was aware of it and crushing him.

 

The Forsaken would rather have sent a handful of Greymen, if they wanted to be undetected. Or have someone poisoning his food. As others have said already, the Forsaken knows that no blunt attack has ever succeded. Rand has already killed several Forsaken, and the one time that more than one Forsaken tried to kill him, they were defeated before even reaching Rand(the Cleansing)

[MikeRiley]

None of which addresses the fact that Callandor and the Choedan Kal were present, and that the Forsaken were aware of that.

 

They knew he was recovering and how would they know how long it would take? That attack would have worked if not for LTT taking over. Rand wouldn't have been any shape to use either callandor or the choedan kal. They also knew he was hiding and using the choedan kal would be a dead giveaway to his exact location, something he wouldn't have wanted. It probably was Taim, but the attack should have succeeded, it was bad luck on the forsaken's part that it didn't.

[Luckers]

Firstly, presumably they would have some knowledge of recovery rates of over-use of the Power, and would thus be aware that he would be active.

 

Which is irrelevant. They know he has other channelers. Ones he trusts to use those sa'angreal--they directly comment on it. Even if Rand weren't in shape to use the sa'angreal, others would have been.

 

As for hiding--please... sending trollocs to kill him reveals that they know where he is.

 

The attack was stupid. From the Forsaken's perspective there was no way at all that such an attack could even concievably defeat Rand.

 

That Rand was stupid in not calling on Callandor and the Choedan Kal does not change that.

[Sab]

First we have seen the Forsaken do not care how many shadowspawn are killed, think Asmo even mentioned Samm would have alot killed if he thought it would achieve his objective.  So if 100,000 trollocs died why would any of them care.  Seems there are alot more.

 

Maybe it wasn't meant to suceed at all.  Maybe they just want Rand to know his hiding place has been discovered and they want him to get desperate and move.  After all Demandred can't find the seals so he needs Rand to go to them, Semir might of done it in hopes it would weaken him for their meeting. 

[Osan`gar]

It's even more than that--the Forsaken just experienced getting their asses handed to them at the Cleansing. They knew Rand had Callandor and the Choedan Kal with him, and no reason to think he would not use them. At that stage they may not even have known the female Choedan Kal had been destroyed, not that its nessasary.

 

Effectively it makes no sense for any of the Forsaken to have sent those Shadowspawn. It was throwing them away.

 

i aggree that it was an excercise in futility to send any amount of trollocs to attack him...perhaps it was a diverson so that his attention could be focused in one place while they accomplished something important in another place... but what?

[Mr Ares]

First we have seen the Forsaken do not care how many shadowspawn are killed, think Asmo even mentioned Samm would have alot killed if he thought it would achieve his objective. So if 100,000 trollocs died why would any of them care? Seems there are alot more.

Sammael would have killed them to achieve his objective, but there is a dfference between willingness to sustain casualties in pursuit of a goal, and willingness to squander lives to no possible gain. This is the latter. It was an incompetent move. The Chosen know Rand has Callandor and the Choedan Kal, they know he is willing to use them, they know he knows things only LTT could, they know Rand knows how to do quite a few things - sending 100,000 Trollocs is only likely to achieve the deaths of 100,000 Trollocs. Considering Rand was willing to trust Narishma with Callandor at the Cleansing, they must know that he might be willing to leave someone else to destroy the Shadowspawn army and not even have to get out of bed. So weakening him doesn't work. Even if you flush him out of hiding, no telling he'll go where you want him to. Or even that he'll move at all. The only reasonable outcome was the one we got - a lot of dead Trollocs.