Ogier related questions ???

[balefireruinssteaks]

I was fairly certain that Aviendha had located a ter'angreal that could grow the Ways as they did way back when.  When she was "reading" ter'angreal she came across one that could grow something, but it must be activated by singing.  Elayne dismissed it because she doesn't know about Ogier, but I'm surprised Aviendha didn't say anything as the Ogier and Aiel are rather close when it comes to nature and protecting it.

 

Plus the Aiel women in The Great Hunt were in a stedding looking for Sung Wood, so I would have thought the Aiel had some sort of notion of what could be done with singing.

[MikeRiley]

It probably is for growing the Ways but those ter'angreal could be something Ogier keep hidden. Or maybe it's something used to construct the Nym?

[RobertAlexWillis]

As far as we know, there is only one Talisman of Growing.  It is referred to in the singular in the Guide, and in TSR ch 43, Loial says that once he takes both of the Avendesora leaves from the Manetheren Waygate, "The only means of opening the Gate again will be for the Elders to bring the Talisman of Growing."

 

So, there is only one, given to the Ogier long ago, and kept by them ever since, currently held somewhere by the Elders.

 

What Aviendha found is more likely a ter'angreal used to help in seed-singing, the Age of Legends ritual performed by the Da'shain Aiel, with the Ogier and the Nym.  Perhaps it was a ter'angreal to enable the same effect on a smaller scale, without the Nym.  The Nym themselves were constructs of the Power who used the Power, almost like a kind of living ter'angreal.  Perhaps this ter'angreal was a predecessor of or low-grade substitute for the Nym.

[Elgee]

There is also only one Oath Rod.

 

Oh wait, up pops another one!

 

Wonderful things, those Stasis boxes  ;)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Wonderful things, those Stasis boxes

 

Except the Oath Rod was not originally conceived that way; it was one binder among many whose significance was amped up after the Breaking.  The others were put in a stasis box pre-Breaking.

 

The Talisman of Growing didn't exist pre-Breaking, because the Ways didn't exist pre-Breaking.  They were the gift of male channelers to the Ogier in thanks for shelter in the stedding during and after the Breaking.  So, the situation is a little different.

[Elgee]

That still doesn't mean they made only one. Nor that all stasis boxes were filled and stored away somewhere before those Talismans of Growing were made.

 

You COULD quite possibly be right, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of more quite so readily. We've seen too many examples of things everyone believed, only to have some evidence to the contrary pop up.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I understand your point, I simply disagree.  The Ogier have much longer, more accurate memories than the Aes Sedai, and are much less likely to make that kind of mistake.  Also, the Talisman of Growing requires Ogier singing to work, so there would be no point in making one for someone else.  The circumstances around the Talisman are unique, in ways that the circumstances around the Oath Rod, or any of the variety of other odds and ends which have popped up, are not.

 

[Elgee]

Bah ... I think you have more good points than I do *sniffs and hitches up shawl*

 

I'm not going to give up the idea, though - that "activate by singing" was just too pointed a clue (or a red herring, of course).

[RobertAlexWillis]

that "activate by singing" was just too pointed a clue

 

I agree.  A clue toward Aiel seed-singing from the Age of Legends, which is where the rest of the stuff in the collection came from.  ;)

 

Bah ... I think you have more good points than I do *sniffs and hitches up shawl*

 

Don't admit that!  Relative reasonableness might be contagious, and then where would these boards be!?

 

[Elgee]

Bugger ... I said that out loud, didn't I?

 

But yes - the seed singing was my second option (*pokes balefireguy*: what did you think about that option?), but somehow that seemed a bit prosaic. Growing Ways seemed much more romantic, somehow  :D

[Dark Justice]

speaking of the oath rod. (or the binder..) why, in the breaking, did they not bind the male channelers to not channel? Why didnt the male channelers themselves bind to not channel. I mean, some hid away in steadings to avoid channeling.. So why did they not just bind themselves with a oath?

[RobertAlexWillis]

why, in the breaking, did they not bind the male channelers to not channel?

 

Things got out of control too quickly.  The first batch of loonies were really powerful, and could prevent others from binding them, at least until they killed themselves.  Then, other men went crazy with no one around.  For 300 years there was no one in charge.

 

There may have been one or two who were bound with a binder; we don't have records of what happened to every channeler.  But between the War of the Shadow (which was still going on at the beginning of the Breaking), and the Breaking itself, there just wasn't enough organization left to put a large scale plan like that to use everywhere.

 

It probably would have proven fatal for the men, too, since it would amount to the same thing as being severed; the Power always there, tantalizing, but never able to be touched.  So, they would have tried, hard, and we see what happens to the Aes Sedai when they really try to break the Oaths ... it can actually be physically damaging.

 

[Dark Justice]

I guess so.. The (so called) Aes Sedai was always an unorganized lot...  ;D

And to physical damage, I guess that would have been preferable to what they really ended up doing..

Even binding 50 male channelers might have proven a HUGE differnce.

But I do get your point.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And to physical damage, I guess that would have been preferable to what they really ended up doing..

 

With hindsight, yes, but these people were used to being able to Heal anything short of death, too.  I imagine a lot of them would have put it off hoping they could be Healed, at least in the first years, and after that, it was too late.

[Dark Justice]

well.. Better safe than sorry..  ;)

Anyway. It was necisary wasnt it? If there was no breaking, there would not be dragonmount either, and tDR could not have been born on the slopes of it...  ;)

[RobertAlexWillis]

well.. Better safe than sorry..

 

LOL ... true, but harder to say when "safe" for you basically means torture until you die a horrible death.

 

Anyway. It was necisary wasnt it? If there was no breaking, there would not be dragonmount either, and tDR could not have been born on the slopes of it...

 

Yeah, this story would definitely not be as cool without the Breaking behind it!

[Serenla]

Just out of curiosity, would binding them have worked?  You can lie after taking an oath against lying, if you're crazy and don't know your channeling then could you still channel? 

[RobertAlexWillis]

You can lie after taking an oath against lying

 

LOL ... nobody takes an Oath against lying.

 

Just out of curiosity, would binding them have worked? ... if you're crazy and don't know your channeling then could you still channel?

 

Since the Oath's method of enforcement is your own mind, it could be possible that a truly insane person could channel.  However, I think the idea is to bind the ones who hadn't gone insane, yet, to keep them from going insane.  If you stopped them from touching the Power before the taint got to them, then presumably they never become insane enough to get around the Oath.

[Serenla]

You can lie after taking an oath against lying

 

LOL ... nobody takes an Oath against lying.

I know your teasing me but it went over my head.  How did I mess up?

 

Just out of curiosity, would binding them have worked? ... if you're crazy and don't know your channeling then could you still channel?

 

Since the Oath's method of enforcement is your own mind, it could be possible that a truly insane person could channel.  However, I think the idea is to bind the ones who hadn't gone insane, yet, to keep them from going insane.  If you stopped them from touching the Power before the taint got to them, then presumably they never become insane enough to get around the Oath.

That's reasonable.  I guess I'm pictuing them going crazy too fast.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I know your teasing me but it went over my head.  How did I mess up?

 

The Oath is to "speak no word that is not true".  You can lie your head off without technically violating it.  Aes Sedai do it all the time.

 

I guess I'm pictuing them going crazy too fast.

 

Thats probably one of the reasons this was never tried on a large scale.  In the beginning, they would have been going nutso way too fast.  When Lews Therin and the boys came back crazy, nobody knew exactly what the Taint was, how it would affect everyone, or that its effects would be incurable.  If some Aes Sedai had know instantly exactly how bad it was going to be, had the authority to instantly mobilize everyone, and had no other problems to deal with, and had complete cooperation from the men she was essentially condemning to a slow death, then it might have worked.  You can see why that was unlikely.

[Serenla]

 

The Oath is to "speak no word that is not true".  You can lie your head off without technically violating it.  Aes Sedai do it all the time.

Never thought of it that way, guess they wanted a loop hole from the start... 

Thats probably one of the reasons this was never tried on a large scale.  In the beginning, they would have been going nutso way too fast.  When Lews Therin and the boys came back crazy, nobody knew exactly what the Taint was, how it would affect everyone, or that its effects would be incurable.  If some Aes Sedai had know instantly exactly how bad it was going to be, had the authority to instantly mobilize everyone, and had no other problems to deal with, and had complete cooperation from the men she was essentially condemning to a slow death, then it might have worked.  You can see why that was unlikely.

So I'm not as slow as I thought I was.  Good to know.  ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

Never thought of it that way, guess they wanted a loop hole from the start...

 

They most assuredly did.

[Serenla]

Never thought of it that way, guess they wanted a loop hole from the start...

 

They most assuredly did.

I never would have thought to leave that leeway, I guess I'm too naive to be Aes Sedai...

[Osan`gar]

Never thought of it that way, guess they wanted a loop hole from the start...

 

They most assuredly did.

I never would have thought to leave that leeway, I guess I'm too naive to be Aes Sedai...

 

you are not being naieve just... honest. remember the Aes Sedai were feared and reviled after the breaking. in order to retain their grip on the reins of power the vast ignorant public had to feel safe with them. this was accomplished by means of the three oaths. those oaths were carefully worded so as to instill a belief onto the general public that Aes Sedai were now harmless unless they were threatened, or working against shadow spawn. the most critical element would have been the oath against speaking untrue words. they knew that the people would interpret this as an oath against lieing and it would therefore be extrememly effective as a tool for manipulation. one might say that the oath itself was the first lie. as the very oath itself is in fact a deception to enable them to effectively convey untrue statements. that oath is the basis for Aes Sedai power in the modern age. it is their greatest political weapon. imagine how you could be manipulated to any ends they chose; if you only believe every word they utter.

[balefireruinssteaks]

to answer an earlier comment - I thought what Aviendha found was for growing the Ways, but it seems like there are good arguments for it being simply for seed-singing.  However, even though the Ogier have long lived memories, remember that a long lived Ogier is only 500 years old by Loial's thoughts.  Channelers not bound by the Oath Rod live at least 100 years longer, but I would definitely agree that the Ogier memories are probably more reliable than general human memories.  Cadsuane seems to have her memory intact at nearly 300 years old, though. 

 

Since even the founding of the White Tower was nearly 3,000 years ago (I think?) we don't really know what other ter'angreal were created for the purpose of growing the Ways.  Even in Aviendha's "readings" she found 10 or so ter'angreal that were all designed to communicate over long distances...so there are objects of the Power that do the same things...and I imagine that growing the Ways seemed very important...so leaving it to one Talisman of Growing seems unlikely to me.