Questions about Moiraine ???

[Osan`gar]

in TDR when Moiraine and the group are in Illian following Rand to Tear Moiraine inexplicably decides to leave Lan behind while she scouts Illian. When next we see her she states that Samael is in charge of Illian.

 

Question #1: Why on Earth would she EVER tell Lan to wait while she did his job ???

 

Question #2: How could She Possibly recognize Samael, assuming she was able to actually come in contact with one of the coucil of 9 at the late hour they were there he had been in stasis since the age of legendswell before She was born ??? She could not possibly have recognized them ???

 

Question #3: Earlier in TGH Verin meets up with Rand and Ingtar and tells them that Moiraine sent her. however when Moiraine is asked about this she denied it but was not at all interested in how verin was able to tell a lie. One of them did lie; either Verin lied about Moiraine sending her or Moairaine Lied about not Sending Verin. but which one ??? and Why ???

 

Question #4: Are these inconsistencies just a result of shoddy writing... doubtful; or are they hidden clues of deep import... if so what do they mean ???

[Orange Fescue]

in TDR when Moiraine and the group are in Illian following Rand to Tear Moiraine inexplicably decides to leave Lan behind while she scouts Illian. When next we see her she states that Samael is in charge of Illian.

 

Question #1: Why on Earth would she EVER tell Lan to wait while she did his job ???

 

Question #2: How could She Possibly recognize Samael, assuming she was able to actually come in contact with one of the coucil of 9 at the late hour they were there he had been in stasis since the age of legendswell before She was born ??? She could not possibly have recognized them ???

 

Question #3: Earlier in TGH Verin meets up with Rand and Ingtar and tells them that Moiraine sent her. however when Moiraine is asked about this she denied it but was not at all interested in how verin was able to tell a lie. One of them did lie; either Verin lied about Moiraine sending her or Moairaine Lied about not Sending Verin. but which one ??? and Why ???

 

Question #4: Are these inconsistencies just a result of shoddy writing... doubtful; or are they hidden clues of deep import... if so what do they mean ???

 

Question #1: Moiraine wasn't doing Lan's job. Lan scouts in terms of things a standard-issue scout would look for, enhanced by warder abilities like the ability to sense shadow-spawn. Moiraine could sense something was wrong in Illian and knew it had to be something of a sort warders would be useless against. Sometimes, you need muscle and tracking ability; sometimes, you need the Power and aes sedai-ness.

 

Question #2: No idea. Darkhounds, mass nightmares, "offness" in the city. Maybe she talked to people in the street and gathered enough information from their nightmares to put 2.0, 0.3, 1.2, 0.15, and 0.35 together and get 4. (Someone check my math on that. I was liberal arts.) That's what I've always assumed. Since I don't think she ever discussed what happened away from the inn beyond "get the horses, we need to leave NOW", I'm not sure what there is beyond that. Did Sammael have any particular association with darkhounds in Randland history?

 

Question #3: There've been some threads discussing that but I don't think a consensus was ever reached.

 

Question #4: I prefer to assume they're hidden clues. It's so much more fun that way. Besides, on my current re-read, I've noticed so many tiny little forshadowings and ironies that something as bold as Verin apparently lying and Moiraine being non-plussed by it is hard to see as anything but deliberate plotting on RJ's part.

[bluecole]

#2One way she knew Sammy was in town because he rose to power so quickly.

Add her her shadowspawn ability, plus the fact she knew the foresaken were loose, and it all added up.

 

#3 this has been endlessly debated.  Eithe Verin has been freed of the oaths, or there was enough wiggle room in what was said

 

#4. RAFO!

 

Thanks,

 

B.

[Orange Fescue]

#2One way she knew Sammy was in town because he rose to power so quickly.

Add her her shadowspawn ability, plus the fact she knew the foresaken were loose, and it all added up.

 

 

That's how she could tell one of the Forsaken was in town but, now that Osan'gar brought it up, it doesn't really tell how she knew which one. I mean I guess she could assume (tentatively) it was one of the men once she figured out it was Lord Whatsits who was Sammael's front. Knowing which of the guys had been offed at the Eye of the World narrowed it down a little. Still, how'd she know it wasn't Asmodean or Rahvin? All I can come up with is that something in the dreams he pushed on the Illianers identified him. Maybe he dreamed he walked into his favorite bar in Paran Diesen and everyone said "Hey, Sammael, how've you been ol' buddy?"

[Alderthal]

Or it could've been his description. Unlike the other Forsaken, Sammael has a notable scar. We know already that very little was known about the Forsaken at the start of the series, but perhaps one of the bobs and bits about Sammael was about the scar.

[Cybertrolloc]

Also Be'lal in Tear...I tend to go with the Gandalf has mysterious knowledge deal with it approach (I don't try to read things into the first 3 books, especially since so many things change with book 4--one power mechanics, etc) ;)

 

Verin lying was semi-cleared up by RJ. Blog entry on this site?

[Roxinos]

Question #2: How could She Possibly recognize Samael, assuming she was able to actually come in contact with one of the coucil of 9 at the late hour they were there he had been in stasis since the age of legendswell before She was born Huh She could not possibly have recognized them Huh

 

As has been said, Sammael is one of the few Forsaken with noticeable marks. If she can get a look at him, then she can probably piece together who he is from descriptions of him that no doubt exist in various writings. I would imagine that she studied as much as she could find on the Forsaken once she found that they were freed, and perhaps even before then.

 

Question #3: Earlier in TGH Verin meets up with Rand and Ingtar and tells them that Moiraine sent her. however when Moiraine is asked about this she denied it but was not at all interested in how verin was able to tell a lie. One of them did lie; either Verin lied about Moiraine sending her or Moairaine Lied about not Sending Verin. but which one Huh and Why Huh

 

I cannot find any reference to the incident in question on Robert Jordan's blog (as Cybertrolloc suggested), but I may be wrong.

 

The common theory is that Verin found a way to remove the First Oath from herself (or replace it with some other Oath).

 

Question #4: Are these inconsistencies just a result of shoddy writing... doubtful; or are they hidden clues of deep import... if so what do they mean Huh

 

They're not inconsistencies. They're just not things which have been explicitly explained.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Question #2: How could She Possibly recognize Samael, assuming she was able to actually come in contact with one of the coucil of 9 at the late hour they were there he had been in stasis since the age of legendswell before She was born Huh She could not possibly have recognized them Huh

 

As has been said, Sammael is one of the few Forsaken with noticeable marks. If she can get a look at him, then she can probably piece together who he is from descriptions of him that no doubt exist in various writings. I would imagine that she studied as much as she could find on the Forsaken once she found that they were freed, and perhaps even before then.

Plus...

 

Only those who effect the pattern drastically can effect other people's dreams. So you've got an immensely powerful person in Illian.

 

Then you've got the strange darkhoundy sightings around the city. Which points to a DF. Plus, she knows the Forsaken are loose.

 

Then there's the fact that Lord Brend is a man, which naturally reduces the scope a little further. Once she's getting twitchy about male Forsaken, she's going to running all the information she's come across under a microscope. Once she sees him.... I think the pieces could fall into place.

 

**

As an aside, I didn't really think she would have been able to recognise him, I still don't, I think it's too much of a stretch.

 

A male Forsaken, sure. Sammael? Not sure she'd be able to get that one. Not without coming face to face with him.

[Roxinos]

A male Forsaken, sure. Sammael? Not sure she'd be able to get that one. Not without coming face to face with him.

 

Well, is it impossible that she did run into him? Or that she saw him from afar?

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Well, is it impossible that she did run into him? Or that she saw him from afar?

Not at all.

 

I'd have expected her to mention it though, if she had seen the Boogeyman she'd mention it.

 

Offhand, I don't think she did.

[Dmitri]

 

Well, is it impossible that she did run into him? Or that she saw him from afar?

Not at all.

 

I'd have expected her to mention it though, if she had seen the Boogeyman she'd mention it.

 

Offhand, I don't think she did.

 

And is it possible she asked someone from the town how their new Lord look?

 

And then used what she read about Forsaken, etc.

 

[lgautam]

Is it specifically STATED somewhere that Sammael under the guise of 'Lord Brend' retained his scar along with the rest of his appearance? Surely, he must've wanted to appear like an ordinary Illianer lord so as not to attract the wrong attention?

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

And is it possible she asked someone from the town how their new Lord look?

 

And then used what she read about Forsaken, etc.

Sure.

 

But then lgautam raises a good point...

Is it specifically STATED somewhere that Sammael under the guise of 'Lord Brend' retained his scar along with the rest of his appearance? Surely, he must've wanted to appear like an ordinary Illianer lord so as not to attract the wrong attention?

That's why I said "think". I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of WOT. What I done is read the series 3 maybe 4 times and recall thinking each time that it was a little odd.

 

But whatever, I don't really think it's a big deal, it's just odd.

[Roxinos]

*nod* I've always felt that Moiraine served as some kind of super infodump character.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

*nod* I've always felt that Moiraine served as some kind of super infodump character.

*nod* Entirely.

 

She's the way out when he's got to get the plot moving, similar to the Ta'varen (sp) effect.

 

- Some ancient piece of information the heroes need to survive? Moiraine's your woman.

[Mr Ares]

One of them did lie.

No. Aes Sedai twist the truth all the time. The truth you hear isn't the truth you think you hear. Plus, we have no reason to believe Verin is freed from the Oaths, and her POVs indicate this is not so. She always tells the truth. Look at her POV in PoD Prologue. Everything she says there is true.

 

Surely, he must've wanted to appear like an ordinary Illianer lord so as not to attract the wrong attention?

The Chosen are pretty arrogant, what attention would he be worried about attracting? And Sammael's scar, while noticeable, is hardly so far out of the ordinary - particularly in cultures where duels are fought (at least some of the Westlands cultures), people do pick up scars. So people might just think that he lost a duel.

[Alghar Khan]

One of them did lie.

No. Aes Sedai twist the truth all the time. The truth you hear isn't the truth you think you hear. Plus, we have no reason to believe Verin is freed from the Oaths, and her POVs indicate this is not so. She always tells the truth. Look at her POV in PoD Prologue. Everything she says there is true.

I think Verin lied. Moiraine didn't react to it, because she knows that aes sedai twist the truth. But this was no twisting of the truth. Verin must have used the oath rod in tel'aran'rhiod, while she still had the twisted ring dream ter'angreal. RJ said something about how it could be possible, IIRC.

 

 

[Roxinos]

No. Aes Sedai twist the truth all the time. The truth you hear isn't the truth you think you hear. Plus, we have no reason to believe Verin is freed from the Oaths, and her POVs indicate this is not so. She always tells the truth. Look at her POV in PoD Prologue. Everything she says there is true.

 

Just because you never lie does not mean you cannot lie.

 

Moiraine did react to it when she found that Verin had lied. She frowned. The frown and saying, "I did not send her," is in direct contradiction to Verin saying, "Moiraine sent me."

[Mr Ares]

No. Aes Sedai twist the truth all the time. The truth you hear isn't the truth you think you hear. Plus, we have no reason to believe Verin is freed from the Oaths, and her POVs indicate this is not so. She always tells the truth. Look at her POV in PoD Prologue. Everything she says there is true.

Just because you never lie does not mean you cannot lie.

 

Moiraine did react to it when she found that Verin had lied. She frowned. The frown and saying, "I did not send her," is in direct contradiction to Verin saying, "Moiraine sent me."

When someone belongs to a group of people who swear an Oath not to lie, and have faces that are changed, noticeably so, by this swearing of Oaths, and removal of Oaths would remove this change to the face, and this person never lies, and their face is marked in the same way as those who have sworn three Oaths, and we know they are not a member of the only group that actually knows that these Oaths can be removed, then why should we believe that this person can lie, when all indications are that they cannot?

 

I think Verin lied. Moiraine didn't react to it, because she knows that aes sedai twist the truth. But this was no twisting of the truth. Verin must have used the oath rod in tel'aran'rhiod, while she still had the twisted ring dream ter'angreal. RJ said something about how it could be possible, IIRC.

I think maybe you should find that statement of RJ's. As for no twisting of the truth, all indications are that that was all it could have been, adn therefore exactly what it was. As the Agelessness is as a result of three Oaths, and Verin is Ageless, then what was her new Oath, given that you believe she has lost one of the originals?

[Roxinos]

When someone belongs to a group of people who swear an Oath not to lie, and have faces that are changed, noticeably so, by this swearing of Oaths, and removal of Oaths would remove this change to the face, and this person never lies, and their face is marked in the same way as those who have sworn three Oaths, and we know they are not a member of the only group that actually knows that these Oaths can be removed, then why should we believe that this person can lie, when all indications are that they cannot?

 

1) I never said Verin had all three Oaths removed.

2) It is not clear how many Oaths must be taken for the ageless effect to come. It may very well be that only one Oath is necessary for the ageless effect.

3) Even if a total of three Oaths (minimum) are required for the ageless effect to come, then it is not impossible that Verin replaced the First Oath with something else.

4) Just because I do not know what she could have replaced the First Oath with does not support you. "I don't know" is not a victory for you.

5) It is not so difficult to learn that Oaths can be removed.

6) It is not inconceivable that Verin learned that Oaths can be removed and thus removed the one that prevents her from lying.

7) We should believe that Verin can lie because she very clearly did.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

1) I never said Verin had all three Oaths removed.

You didn't need to.

2) It is not clear how many Oaths must be taken for the ageless effect to come. It may very well be that only one Oath is necessary for the ageless effect.

From Wotmania: "The fact that the ageless look is a result of swearing three oaths (not just an oath) has been confirmed by Jordan at booksignings"

3) Even if a total of three Oaths (minimum) are required for the ageless effect to come, then it is not impossible that Verin replaced the First Oath with something else.

Just unsupported.

5) It is not so difficult to learn that Oaths can be removed.

It requires access to the Oath Rod, for one thing, which Sitters have but others don't. Verin is not a Sitter.

6) It is not inconceivable that Verin learned that Oaths can be removed and thus removed the one that prevents her from lying.

Just unsupported.

7) We should believe that Verin can lie because she very clearly did.

No, she didn't. She said something which can be explained away by AS truth twisting.

[Roxinos]

No, she didn't. She said something which can be explained away by AS truth twisting.

 

No, it really can't. It is in direct contradiction to what Moiraine said. Moiraine did not send her. The only way that Verin could have said that "Moiraine sent [her]" is if she truly believed that Moiraine sent her. We know that Moiraine didn't, and Verin could not actually, truly believe that Moiraine sent her.

 

The First Oath does not work that way. She cannot just say something if it can be justified. She has to believe that it's truth. Even if she can justify it by saying that Moiraine wanted Verin to help in the hunt for the Horn, Moiraine did not send her.

 

All of the rest, I would generally agree with. That's the ambiguity and confusion about it. But it doesn't matter. It's clear that Verin lied.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Regarding the supposed RJ quote regarding Verin:

 

According to Wotmania, RJ explicitly denied a rumor that he had said that Verin did not hold the Oath Rod.  (http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58)

 

I know that is not the same as saying that "Verin is still bound by all three Oaths", but it definitely is NOT confirmation that she is free of them.

 

As to the difference between what Verin said, and what Moiraine said, it is extremely easy to explain that without saying that either of them lied.  It has been demonstrated multiple times that the Oath acts on what the Aes Sedai believes to be true, not what is objectively true.  For Verin to be telling the "truth", it could be as simple as her convincing herself that Moiraine's actions left her with no choice.  In this particular case, one possibility (certainly not the only one) is that Verin felt that Moiraine's apparent abandonment of Rand was unwise, and therefore Moiraine's actions caused her to follow Rand.  Therefore, Moiraine "sent" her, without any implication that Moiraine intended to send her.

 

Of course, when asked, Moiraine is thinking about her intentions, and what she actually said out loud, making her denial just as true from her point of view as Verin's statement was from her point of view.

 

(So what I told is true ... from a certain point of view ...)

 

It is not at all clear that Verin "spoke a word that is not true".  What is clear is that she is highly skilled in the rationalizations that allow Aes Sedai to be deceptive with the letter of the truth, from their own point of view.

 

1) I never said Verin had all three Oaths removed.

2) It is not clear how many Oaths must be taken for the ageless effect to come. It may very well be that only one Oath is necessary for the ageless effect.

3) Even if a total of three Oaths (minimum) are required for the ageless effect to come, then it is not impossible that Verin replaced the First Oath with something else.

4) Just because I do not know what she could have replaced the First Oath with does not support you. "I don't know" is not a victory for you.

5) It is not so difficult to learn that Oaths can be removed.

6) It is not inconceivable that Verin learned that Oaths can be removed and thus removed the one that prevents her from lying.

7) We should believe that Verin can lie because she very clearly did.

 

Point one, of course is true.

Point two is also true.

Point three: true.

Point four ... not so much.  Your claim is the one which requires proof, since you claim is the one which proposes an unusual and extraordinary circumstance.

Point five: true.

Point six: true, it is not "inconceivable", but it is unlikely that she would actually do it.

Point seven: sorry, not so much.  It it not clear at all that Verin violated the First Oath.

[Roxinos]

Point four ... not so much.  Your claim is the one which requires proof, since you claim is the one which proposes an unusual and extraordinary circumstance.

 

I never claimed to know, so my claim does not require me to provide an option. My claim merely requires me to support why I think Verin lied, which I did.

 

In this particular case, one possibility (certainly not the only one) is that Verin felt that Moiraine's apparent abandonment of Rand was unwise, and therefore Moiraine's actions caused her to follow Rand.  Therefore, Moiraine "sent" her, without any implication that Moiraine intended to send her.

 

The word "sent" definitely includes intent. Something cannot be sent by something else without intent. So Verin's use of the word "sent" cannot be explained by a mere trick of double-meanings. The meaning of the word is quite clear.

 

Point six: true, it is not "inconceivable", but it is unlikely that she would actually do it.

 

Why not? Verin is an opportunist.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I never claimed to know, so my claim does not require me to provide an option. My claim merely requires me to support why I think Verin lied, which I did.

 

Then its not a "victory" for you, either, to put it in the terms of your claim.  Its your opinion, unsupported by the text.  Which you are entirely entitled to, but any disagreement from any source carries the same validity, until evidence is introduced.

 

The word "sent" definitely includes intent. Something cannot be sent by something else without intent. So Verin's use of the word "sent" cannot be explained by a mere trick of double-meanings. The meaning of the word is quite clear.

 

Sorry, but linguistically, it doesn't.  And if I can convince myself of that, so can Verin.  It does to you, and you're certainly not unusual in that regard, but Verin's Oaths aren't filtered through your mind.

 

Here are some alternate definitions of "send" that require no active intent:

 

To put or drive into a given state or condition. (As in "The fire sent them into a panic.")

To cause to take place or occur. (As in "They were determined to overcome, whatever fate sent their way.)

To cause to go to a place or point. (The explosion sent her flying through the air.)

To cause, permit, or enable to go. (Moiraine sent me, whether she meant to or not.)

 

(For reference, I did not create any of those definitions.  The usage examples are mine, however.)

 

Most languages are quite flexible in the right person's hands.  There is PLENTY of wiggle room here.

 

Why not? Verin is an opportunist.

 

Because she believes in the principles of being Aes Sedai.  Its becoming rarer in our world, but some people do act based on a moral compass, even when it is inconvenient.  Verin's POVs have demonstrated that she is intent on preserving the letter of the Oaths in her actions.