to live you must die

[RedEagle]

I just finished KoD again and was curious to know if anyone has any theories on what the Aelfinn mean when they tell Rand "to live you must die".

[metria31183]

When it comes to that particular topic, theories abound.  Some people think it means he will fake his death, some think it means he will die and be resurrrected by someone nad Luckers has a rather....unique theory about Rand swaping bodies with Moridin.

[Nightstrike]

When it comes to that particular topic, theories abound.  Some people think it means he will fake his death, some think it means he will die and be resurrrected by someone nad Luckers has a rather....unique theory about Rand swaping bodies with Moridin.

Alivia will "help him die" and the link between Rand and Moridin seems to grow stronger. Why not go really crazy and connect the faked death with the bodyswap (I'm almost 90% serious, I assure you). The DO hasn't ordered Rand dead, so it seems it's not on the Shadow's agenda. Rand is a hero of the horn. Maybe Alivia will stop his heart, put a Keeping weave over his body, and then he can do his thing from T'a'r. The 3 women in a boat with he who is dead yet lives could be them transporting his "faked death" body to Alivia. When she resurrects his body, Rand's soul is attracted to Moridin's body (instead of his own) and Moridin's soul jumps over to Rand's body. After Tarmon Gai'don, Moridin's soul will be in the bandaged beggar body that used to belong to Rand.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nightstrike]

I just realized that it doesn't seem to fit well with the following (which I copied from Bob T Dwarf's post in another thread):

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

"The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow."

 

"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation."

The Dragon's blood. Where does that fit?

 

 

[metria31183]

I just realized that it doesn't seem to fit well with the following (which I copied from Bob T Dwarf's post in another thread):

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

"The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow."

 

"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation."

The Dragon's blood. Where does that fit?

 

 

 

It could mean his and Elayne's children.  I just can't buy the bodyswap theory though.  It's just too out there for me.  There are no examples of it in the text.  Placing the soul of a dead person into another's body (and that only by the Dark), but no examples of swapping bodies as explained by Luckers.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

It's true that we have no such examples. But ever since the crossing Balefire streams, the link Moridin/Rand seems to have grown stronger. Now he's even having trouble reaching for saidin. What do you think will become of the link between them? I think RJ had some kind of purpose with this link between the Light's champion and the Shadow's champion. It might not be a bodyswap, but there's got to be something special about it. The purpose might not only be RJ's, it could be something that the wheel has woven as the wheel willed. I wonder if this Balefire crossing occurs every last battle, or if this is an exception? I would feel bad for Rand (even though he's just a character in a book  ;)  ) if he ended up as a blind beggar in dirty rags. After all he has done to defeat the DO and save the world.

 

 

 

 

 

[metria31183]

Oh I think the link has something to do with Last Battle and I don't think Rand will end up a blind beggar afterwards.  Though with as much as RJ has pulled on the Fisher King to create the character of Rand, I think that will have to come into play somewhere. 

 

I think it will end so that everybody is going "That makes perfect sense, it's so simple, why didn't I see it coming," but it will be something nobody thought of.  Should make for a great read no matter what happens.

[Hydroc Claw]

I think that the exact wording is important here. It is not 'to live you must die.' It's "If you would live, you must die." I think that's a very important distinction because it implies that he would need to want to live, and be willing to die at the same time.

[MikeRiley]

I just realized that it doesn't seem to fit well with the following (which I copied from Bob T Dwarf's post in another thread):

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

"The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow."

 

"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation."

The Dragon's blood. Where does that fit?

 

 

 

The first one I take to mean the destruction of the Aiel. Also note how it says "his blood shall free men from the shadow" it doesn't say he will. It could also mean something as stupid as the Aiel freeing prisoners from the forges at Thakan Dar on the slopes.

[Kaznen]

It could also be something with LTT in his head.  Maybe he needs to "kill" LTT like some MPD condition.

 

Semmy did say something about reintergration.

[Sylvia]

It could also be something with LTT in his head.  Maybe he needs to "kill" LTT like some MPD condition.

 

THAT'S WHAT I WAS THINKING!!! I knew I had a theory when I was reading the last couple books. I'm with you Kaznen on that one. I think that over time, LTT will become even more prominent in Rand's head, so LTT will take Rand's place, just to join his Ilyneia (sp?)....

 

It makes sense...to someone who's been reading waaaay too much Harry Potter for her own good.

[Casco]

That was my thought to. I think it will be like they merge in to one personality, and the old Rand will "die". I think Rand needs LTT skills with the power in TG, so i dont think LTT will die. The only one who will die is Moridin :) Rand is connected with him to.

[Sylvia]

I'm pretty sure that once Rand learns the skills, he'll be able to do them himself. LTT is already begining to sound more sane (Ish) so I think it comes to the point where Rand and him can have an actual conversation without LTT running around screaming about crazy voices and his wife.

 

Also, I don't want to think that Rand's going to actually die.

[RedEagle]

Thanks for the clarification of the wording Hydroc. I did not have the book in front of me.  :) Personally I don't see why the Creator can't take a hand in resurecting Rand after Olivia helps him die like the DO does with the forsaken, but it probably won't work out that way it's just a thought.

[Kaznen]

I was thinking more along the lines of the narrator's relationship with Tlyer Durden in Fight Club.  He shot himself in the head under the idea of "at least I take him with me" and was surprised when he didn't die, just Tyler.

[Sylvia]

I was thinking more along the lines of the narrator's relationship with Tlyer Durden in Fight Club.  He shot himself in the head under the idea of "at least I take him with me" and was surprised when he didn't die, just Tyler.

 

I like that one.

[Mr Ares]

It could mean his and Elayne's children.

Doubtful enough time will pass for them to be born.

There are no examples of it in the text.

Well, there wouldn't be. One of the important things about the body swap is the Rand/Moridin link, which appears to be unique. Unique event coming from unique circumstance.

 

Personally I don't see why the Creator can't take a hand in resurecting Rand.

The voice at the end of EotW, that is commonly held to be the Creator: I WILL TAKE NO PART.

[Sylvia]

Personally I don't see why the Creator can't take a hand in resurecting Rand.

The voice at the end of EotW, that is commonly held to be the Creator: I WILL TAKE NO PART.

 

Hah, well if that doesn't answer the question, then I don't know what does.

 

I still don't think I like the whole body swap theory.

[Walkabout]

Could it be something to do with Nynaeve as well as the yellow ajahs desire to be able to heal everything. She in particular seems upset that she cant heal death but they have been able to do alot of things thought impossible and it could explain why through so many of the books that it is a subject brought up time and again. It would also satisfy Rand dieing and being able to live on.

[Randy Al Thor]

If Rand Kill Moridin with Balefire just before he is killed by Moridin, wouldn't the two cancel out and he would live again?  Just as happened to Mat?

[MikeRiley]

That could happen.

 

There's a thought that occurred to me just now, Rand might already know how he is going to die. He might have been given a riddle at first in the doorway ter'angreal but he seems pretty confident now when he looks at Alivia who is supposed to help him die. I think he's got this all planned out already and Alivia was the key in the riddle that he couldn't understand until her appearance and Min's viewing.

[Kaznen]

In KoD it showed Rand was still chewing over the, "to live you must die" angle.

[Sylvia]

I highly doubt that he knows the whole "I'm going to die, but this is how I can help that" blah blah blah thing. He's still going on about how Elayne, Avi and Min are going to be hurt by him dieing and all that in WH.....

 

[MikeRiley]

That warder bond is cut the moment he does die, remember. If brought back, the warder bond is still finished. They'll hurt from that and he knows it. He even reflected on it when they were creating the bond.

[mb]

If Rand Kill Moridin with Balefire just before he is killed by Moridin, wouldn't the two cancel out and he would live again?  Just as happened to Mat?

 

The balefire would need to come from someone else.

Osangar did balefire at the Cleansing to Rand; he was killed by Elza before it could hit.