Setalle Anan

[MikeRiley]

I don't believe it was a punishment, but assuming it was, it could be a reminder that he owns her. I bet he knows about her little plan for betraying him, had this been the Age of Legends and he had dreadlords to spare, she'd have been killed for it. It was said by one of the forsaken that he killed numerous ones because he was suspicious. Stated in the forsaken meeting in TAR right before Saidin was cleansed.

[Kaznen]

Her new naem means "Last Chance" in the old tounge.  Seems like some one's sending a message.

[Nightstrike]

Her soul was placed in a different body by the DO. Why would she need to have been healed.? The reduction in power may be the DO'S punishment for conspiring against him.

She would have been burned out upon entering finnland (burning ter'angreal and lost angreal). The finns held her. And some time later she died. Then she was transmigrated by the DO. Are you suggesting that she wouldn't have been burned out any longer after transmigration? Had she been reborn, then she wouldn't have been. But this time she retains all her memories and learned skills. Or, are you suggesting that it's the body that gets burned out and not the soul? Either way, Graendal probably would have felt her full potential strength, not just the strength available to her (after reduction through the DO's shield). Graendal said that Cyndane was weaker than Lanfear.

 

 

As far as I remember SEVERING=stilling OR burnout either one, in addition to the quote from the Guide above I think there is a quote in one of the main books.

That's right, severing can be used in both stilling/gentling and burnout.

 

Do we actually know that with stilling you can sense the source and burnout not.

 

Yes we do. RJ said so. There are other (smaller) differencies, too. The a'dam sensations being slightly different.

 

In places I have heard the Guide was written to be wrong and AS say they send burnt out women away, that no one studies stilling or burnout.  Couldn't over time the thought that stilled can sense the source and burnouts cannot have become fact over 3,000 years, nothing more?  I mean was there a quote from suian or another stilled woman because in this instance I would rather have a POV quote than second hand information.  Maybe I should believe the Aes Sedai but they take waay to many things as fact that have no relation to the actual truth.

From "Thus Spake the Creator":

KuraFire asked: "Can burned out channelers still sense the Source?" (This was because of that debate that pops up every now and then, where because of that one glossary entry people just won't believe that buring out and stilling really aren't synonyms. From now on this should be settled forever.)

A: Ah, burned out? No. The difference between being burned out and being stilled.. We use the term as if it is interchangable, but they aren't. Technically 'stilled' means something that is being done to you deliberately. 'Burned out' is an injury that you received accidentally.

Q: Is it the difference between a clean cut and a cauterized wound? (From memory, the background noise here got too loud for my memo-recorder; a problem throughout this signing.)

A: Yes, and if you're burned out, you cannot sense the Source.

 

 

For my part I believe that both are healable since they are the same thing and if in the AOL they didn't have two seperate names I will trust them.

I agree with you when you say that both are healable.

 

As for Lanfear v. Cyndane on strength there are quite a few threads on this.  As for DO punishment, she is mindtrapped and she is no longer Lanfear, if the DO was mad enough to reduce her power, then why bring her back at all?

You got a point there. Why reduce her strength and make her less of a weapon?  Would seem irrational to me.

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

We know Flinn could Heal stilling. The three sisters from Dumai's Wells that he Healed weren't burnt out, they had been stilled by Rand.

While they are referred to as stilled, what happened to them does not match the usual description of stilling. It appears to be a side effect, rather than Rand's intention, which would more accurately make it burning out. We know AS are not always completely precise with their terminology in this matter - they'll refer to a burning out as a stilling. The one detail we know of as different between the two - the ability to sense the Source - is not provided. Looking at the evidence we have been given, we really have no reason to say it was stilling, not burning out.

 

Those three (Irgain, Sashalle and...whatever).

Ronaille.

 

Her soul was placed in a different body by the DO. Why would she need to have been healed? The reduction in power may be the DO'S punishment for conspiring against him.

She was already punished, with the mindtrap. Reducing her strength simply reduces the effectiveness of one of His tools, without any corresponding gain. New channelers have to grow into their full strength in the Power. The resurrected Chosen did not. Their ability to channel, their strength in the Power remained constant. So, if one had no strength in the Power, then she would have none when given a new body. Until her connection was Healed.

 

I don't believe it was a punishment, but assuming it was, it could be a reminder that he owns her.

Surely the mindtrap already tells her that, and far more effectively. It also lacks the reduction in her abilities that would result from making her weaker.

had this been the Age of Legends and he had dreadlords to spare,

No Dreadlords in the Age of Legends. You mean Chosen/Forsaken.

[metria31183]

She was already punished, with the mindtrap. Reducing her strength simply reduces the effectiveness of one of His tools, without any corresponding gain. New channelers have to grow into their full strength in the Power. The resurrected Chosen did not. Their ability to channel, their strength in the Power remained constant. So, if one had no strength in the Power, then she would have none when given a new body. Until her connection was Healed.

 

Lanfear tried to convince Rand to use the Choedan Kal to challenge the Creator and DO.  The correspoding gain is that she may no longer be powerful enough to do that even with the sa'angreal.  We know she is less than she was, but is still stronger than Graendal, but we don't know exactly what her starting strength was.

 

While they are referred to as stilled, what happened to them does not match the usual description of stilling. It appears to be a side effect, rather than Rand's intention, which would more accurately make it burning out. We know AS are not always completely precise with their terminology in this matter - they'll refer to a burning out as a stilling. The one detail we know of as different between the two - the ability to sense the Source - is not provided. Looking at the evidence we have been given, we really have no reason to say it was stilling, not burning out.

 

I don't have the book in front of me and I can't find the actual quote anywhere but from what I can recall it seemed to me like Rand crushed there connection with saidar, not the actual weaves.  I will have to go back and look tomorrow.  As far as matching the usual description of stilling, the only one I can recall off hand is when Nynaeve and Moghedien are fighting it out in Tanchico and that is a woman stilling another woman (the weave is described as sharp edged to cut the connection to saidar permanently.  What Rand did is described as crushing something.  We know men and women do things differently with the power (Traveling for example).  Maybe a man stilling a woman is different than a woman stilling a woman.  I would say we don't have enough information to say it if it was stilling or burning out.  However, burning out seems to imply that the channeler has done it to themselves usually by trying to draw more of the Power than they can safely hold or misusing a ter'angreal.

[CUBAREY]

So, if one had no strength in the Power, then she would have none when given a new body.

 

Only true if you presume that the ability to use the power is solely related to a Soul and not the physical body. We know this is not true, When LTT killed himself by overusing using the power he would have a consequence burnt out his ability. If the power was only tied to the Soul then when Rand was born he would have been born without the ability to since the power much less use it, and this condition would have prevented him from using the power unless healed. Obviously Rand's ability to use the power was not hindered by LTT's actions nor LTT's ability to use the power using Rand's body. Thus the ability to use the power must have an association with the physical body inhabited by the soul.

[Dmitri]

So, if one had no strength in the Power, then she would have none when given a new body.

 

Only true if you presume that the ability to use the power is solely related to a Soul and not the physical body. We know this is not true, When LTT killed himself by overusing using the power he would have a consequence burnt out his ability. If the power was only tied to the Soul then when Rand was born he would have been born without the ability to since the power much less use it, and this condition would have prevented him from using the power unless healed. Obviously Rand's ability to use the power was not hindered by LTT's actions nor LTT's ability to use the power using Rand's body. Thus the ability to use the power must have an association with the physical body inhabited by the soul.

 

Unless you remember that having been reborn restores the ability to channel.

 

If LTT would have been given a new body, he would've been burnt out.

 

After being reborn, his soul (in Rans'd incarnation) has again an intact channeling ability.

[CUBAREY]

Unless you remember that having been reborn restores the ability to channel.

 

If the ability to use the power is related only to the soul and not the physical body then how would being reborn into a new body restore the Souls ability to use the power?

[Dmitri]

Unless you remember that having been reborn restores the ability to channel.

 

If the ability to use the power is related only to the soul and not the physical body then how would being reborn into a new body restore the Souls ability to use the power?

 

Because, IMHO, this restoration comes from the Wheel and not from the body.

[CUBAREY]

Because, IMHO, this restoration comes from the Wheel and not from the body.

 

This only begs the question. What makes you think that an insatient mechanism restore the use of the power in a burnt out soul?

[Dmitri]

Because, IMHO, this restoration comes from the Wheel and not from the body.

 

This only begs the question. What makes you think that an insatient mechanism restore the use of the power in a burnt out soul?

 

Occasionally, this mechanism deals exactly with souls...

 

And it doesn't need to be sentient for this, you know. So far it managed to keep the balance for Ages  ;)

[MikeRiley]

What if all bodies have the connection with the power, at varying levels and the soul itself has the key to unlocking the ability? If somebody is burned out their body's connection is destroyed and it could be healed. The soul would still retain the ability to channel given a source for it. So in a sense, a body is like an angreal for the soul.

[Mr Ares]

Lanfear tried to convince Rand to use the Choedan Kal to challenge the Creator and DO.

So what? She is mindtrapped, or had you forgotten? Is she acted against Shai'tan, it is but the work of a moment to turn her into a zombie.

 

I don't have the book in front of me and I can't find the actual quote anywhere but from what I can recall it seemed to me like Rand crushed there connection with saidar, not the actual weaves.

As I recall, he crushed the weaves in fists of spirit.

 

So, if one had no strength in the Power, then she would have none when given a new body.

 

Only true if you presume that the ability to use the power is solely related to a Soul and not the physical body. We know this is not true, When LTT killed himself by overusing using the power he would have a consequence burnt out his ability. If the power was only tied to the Soul then when Rand was born he would have been born without the ability to since the power much less use it, and this condition would have prevented him from using the power unless healed. Obviously Rand's ability to use the power was not hindered by LTT's actions nor LTT's ability to use the power using Rand's body. Thus the ability to use the power must have an association with the physical body inhabited by the soul.

RJ has said that the ability to channel has genetic and soul components to it. But we also know that when someone starts channeling, they do not do so at their full strength, yet the reincarnated Chosen do start at their full strength. A normal rebirth hits the reset button, as it were, while what Shai'tan did did not not reset them - either their personalities or channeling abilities. Given that, if one were severed before, then if the channeling state remains constant (and the evidence suggests that it does), said person would remain so afterwards. So it was with Cyndane. Severed as Lanfear, still severed when brought back.

[Juggler]

unless RJ made a huge error setalle anan CAN'T have been aes Sedai, she cannot use an A'dam and we know stilled women can from suian and moghedian, she tried in basement of wandering woman when matt was trying to escape ebou dar.

[Nightstrike]

Setalle Anan (=Martine Janata) was BURNED OUT while studying a ter'angreal. A'dam differencies between stilled/burned out explains the difference. Burned out channelers can't sense the Source, but stilled ones can. Siuan can feel Moghedien's feelings through the a'dam, but she can't control her. I don't think burned out channelers can feel anything through the a'dam. Setalle Anan was disappointed about not "feeling" anything when she tried it.