Moiraine's Teacher??

[Graendals favourite]

Another question: At Vandene and Adeleas' house, Moiraine thinks she has found an answer to a question that she had not thought to ask.  I've reviewed the passage, and I cannot figure this out--either the question, or the answer.  Does anyone know?

I've thought the matter concerned Mordeth taking over Fain's body, or merging with the evil already there. Fain had remained partly a mystery to her, though she thought he had managed to keep something back from her, and this something had been that in Shadar Logoth Mordeth had stepped in, the reason Mashadar fled Fain. Moiraine explains this at Falme, saying Rand might not have survived had he met Fain. The matter came up when Moiraine asked of Vandene:

Moiraine raised a hand. "I did not speak clearly, and I do not speak of the Dragon, now, Reborn or false. Can you think of any reason why a Fade would take something that had come from Shadar Logoth."

So Moiraine understood that it had been Fain who had taken the dagger. What I don't know is how she understood she was to leave for Toman Head, as she must have left for there right after the incident with the Draghkar to be in time. Perhaps she knew Fain was going to go there, and went there for that reason.

 

[Kaznen]

I can't think of an answer to the second question but I do have a theory for the first.

 

It's a matter of how people look at the OP.  The AoL AS looked at channeling as a science, I got his from how the forsaken, LTT, and Rand talk about the OP and its uses.

 

But the modern AS look at it more as a skill, like cooking, they think if the do this, this, and this they get a lighting bolt, do this, this, and that a fireball, do that, that, and this healling.  From the attitudes of AS they do things that way because that is how it is done, not looking for why a weave works all they care about is how to do it.

 

From Egwene, Nyneave, and Elyanes' standpoint they looked at the OP like the mordern AS until they started their tutoring sessions with Moggy one of the things that help keep her under wraps was that the AS didn't care how they learned these weaves just how to do them.

 

I, personally, think of AS experimented with the power as sticking a fork in a toaster to see what happens.  I think Moriane got a revolation about how she looks at the OP, but she didn't do this for acedemic purposes, just how to be more powerful.  The forsaken think of AS as untrained girls so when one has a few trick up her sleevethat would knock them back a little.

[Mr Ares]

Some people would believe it, but most importantly people would be talking about it.

Would the right people believe it? Or would they just think it the rantings of a madman? Logain doesn't believe Rand Cleansed the Source.

[MikeRiley]

Rand orders the Asha'man to stay away from the Aes Sedai because there's bad blood between them and he doesn't want yet another fight. The Asha'man to him are a weapon to be used in the Last Battle and he has no intention of making the Black Tower a permanent thing.

 

There's no AM spies in the rebel camp because he doesn't want to risk provoking the Aes Sedai and causing a fight. He doesn't send people out to exclaim over Saidin being clean because he can't spare the AM to do it. They are too busy. Plus, they have orders to avoid Aes Sedai until the one is sent to allow bonding. Note how he is also already bonded, which would make the Aes Sedai less likely to gentle him on the spot as they wouldn't know what the effects would be on the Aes Sedai who bonded him.

[Kaznen]

If said AM was to walk down the halls in the WT dress all in black with his pins and sword while glaring at the AS, that would provoke a fight.

 

But if he instead dresses like a servant, maybe use the OP to change his appearence, and uses saidin to eavesdrop on sisters, he would learn quite a bit about what was happening in the tower.

[Mr Ares]

But if he instead dresses like a servant, maybe use the OP to change his appearence, and uses saidin to eavesdrop on sisters, he would learn quite a bit about what was happening in the tower.

Does he have sufficient Asha'man tyo spare for that sort of intelligence gathering? Surely they would be better used elsewhere?

[Kaznen]

In PoD the BT had over 700 men with 1-3 new recruits joining everyday.  Before Egwene opened up the novice book there were about 1000 women with the tower.

 

I think Rand could find a few men smart enough to spie on the AS.  I thought Dalmer Flinn would be great for the SAS camp.

[MikeRiley]

There weren't many male servants in the White Tower because men tend to be intimidated by the power. A man set to spy would find himself a groom or something in the stables and about all he would know is who came and who went. A man working inside the Tower itself and poking around would draw the attention of every Aes Sedai present. If he can channel it might be very hard for him to keep his nerve around so many sisters. It would be better for Rand to bribe current Tower servants than risk his weapons needlessly.

[Kaznen]

No gives a second thought about a guy pushing a broom in a hallway, or if they saw somebody walking down the hall with a load of firewood.

 

And even working the stables could bare information.  Noticing that the same group of women leave and return at the same time would mean they're up to something (peace emmisaries with the SAS) same thing if a mysterous coach rolls in at the middle of the night (Egwene and Lelain's captures).

 

Something tells me that AS would find out about bribes while the coin was changing hands and would swoop down on the people before the first sentence was finished.

 

And I'm not saying they get jobs in the WT just dress up like servants and do menial servant stuff that nobody would pay attention to.  Now, something like a clerk would be bad, while there are former clerks in the BT some new guy appearing ready to proof read reports would look very odd.

[Hydroc Claw]

So Moiraine understood that it had been Fain who had taken the dagger. What I don't know is how she understood she was to leave for Toman Head, as she must have left for there right after the incident with the Draghkar to be in time. Perhaps she knew Fain was going to go there, and went there for that reason.

 

She knows the Prophecies of the Dragon, specifically "Five ride forth, four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire." The watchers refers to the people at Falm, and it seems to me that Moiraine would know that type of thing. Verin did. She could probably guess that it was the next place he was sure to show up.

[Graendals favourite]

Yet how should that tell Moiraine she should be at Falme then? There is no telling when the Prophecies are fulfilled. If not for Mordeth, all Moiraine could know, unless she had a tracking device on Rand, was that the Horn would hopefully be recovered from the Blight and be taken to Illian, which would be where Rand would be, according to the plan. That it was instead Mordeth who had the Horn, and had no intention of going to the Blight, could have been deduced by Moiraine when she understood that Mordeth had taken over Fain's body. No tracking device would have told her where Rand went from Cairhien, for he ceased to exist in the world for a few months, which Egwene commented on too. Ergo, it was Mordeth Moiraine followed to Falme, intending to kill him before he could confront Rand. This is probably what prompted Moiraine to learn Balefire and probably other lethal weaves, however she did that on the way to Falme. It only came as a surprise for her that at Falme, she had to be very careful and could not channel without risking being caught. However, probably she had been there for a time before Rand and Egwene arrived: When Egwene arrived, there had been talk of a loose marath'damane, and to Rand she said she had been unable to free the two other Aes Sedai who had been caught in Falme. Moiraine knew the same as Verin, that there were writings in the dungeons in Fal Dara that connected Fain and Toman Head, further she asked for connection between the Dragon and Toman Head, and Vandene told of a weak one.

 

Funny, Fain and Falme is. Fain had everyone follow him there, well the girls came because of Liandrin, and they came, and all affected matters for each other, but mostly, save for that faraway glance between Rand and Egwene, they never saw each other until after everything was done, and no-one saw Fain, unless Moiraine did but did not dare to act.

[Kaznen]

The beginning of the las stanza of the dark prophecy was:

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

 

Suian, Moraine, and Verin deduced that it was refering to Falme.  And after her research with the two sisters something started to click.  When she was attacked by that warded Draghkar she thought, "somebody's watching me...watch..watchers!"  She knew she needed to get to Falme she just didn't know what for.

 

Sounds like she was caght in a ta'veren swirl.

[Mr Ares]

In PoD the BT had over 700 men with 1-3 new recruits joining everyday.

And he needs these men for other things. He has a war to fight. He needs soldiers. What good reason is there for using Asha'man as spies?

[MikeRiley]

On the ultra rare occasion that Egwene gets kidnapped and returned to the White Tower, one of them just might be in the right place at the right time to find out, of course.

 

The only reason I can think of would be to get in touch with Alviarin who he believes supports him, and that's not really spying.

[Kaznen]

It's not like the AS are trying to undermind his power or anything.  They aren't trying to influence evnts and become the real power to the "light's side."

 

And I also doupt the AS are planning a second attempt to bring him, or Mat and Perrin, under there direct control.

 

And I'm sure they just plan to leave the AM in peace, not like they're upset about the BT very existence.

 

Rand doesn't need to know that Matino Stephenoes is still alive afterall.

 

The AS who are not sworn to Rand are his enemies but he has ignored them except when they got in his face.  When he burps in Tear, Illian, and Carihien they know about it.  One AM could learn more about what's going going on in the WT and SAS camp then 30 eyes and ears, and they would have a better way of getting their information to him.

[MikeRiley]

"A better way", you mean to channel? In the midst of hundreds of Aes Sedai? And what happens when he's missing for that long and he's needed on the job? And then he still has to track down Rand and nobody knowing where he is.

 

Rand doesn't want to aggravate the Aes Sedai. He doesn't want to risk it, he doesn't trust the Asha'man near them. He's content to let them come to him and doesn't care what's going on so long as they leave him and his plans alone. He thinks he doesn't need the Tower because he has Asha'man who are far more deadly than the Aes Sedai and on the occasion that he would need them, he has dragonsworn Aes Sedai to meet those needs. It's really as simple as that.

 

He might need to know about Stephenoes, but he doesn't know the guy is even alive so that point is really moot. If you paid for a spy in Spain you might discover a long lost twin brother, too. Mat is already in the clutches of Aes Sedai, they just don't know they can't close them on him. Rand also doesn't know this or he wouldn't have sent Mat into the rebel camp. Really, it's the spectators who see the checkmate first. Rand doesn't know all this stuff and he's pretty sure he can handle things on his own. Why shouldn't he be? The White Tower has shown itself incapable to him.

 

Come to think of it, if he knew Stephenoes was alive he might not even care. He would either give up the crown of swords or he'd keep it and what would Stephenoes do? As Rand would say, he'd wait for the Last Battle to end and pick up the crown from a dead body.

[Kaznen]

Everyone seems under the delusion that said AM would show up dressed as a AM and walk down the halls in an arrogant manner, glare at the first AS he came across they say, "Tell me what you know!"

 

If they don't use the power to get the floors extra clean or haul an armload of wood weighing hundreds of pounds into the ajah quaters no one would notice.  Then they can find an empty room to open a gateway.

 

Most AM don't go to AS looking for a fight.  Thier attitude that makes them "strut" around the AS is that they aren't afraid of AS like most men are.

 

And as far as them not getting in the way of Rands plans...

 

Far Madding

 

And Rand didn't think the SAS would be much a threat to Mat.  He thought, maybe fifty AS and their "army" would be intimidated by Mat with his ter'angreal and his 6000 soilders.

 

Now he knows Mat is not with them, and he seems okay, and ta'veren will call ta'veren when they need each other.

 

But as far as dealing with the world at large, he has gotten rather lazy,  Perrin and Mat are better informed about what's going on then him.

[MikeRiley]

They may not strut but like I said in an earlier post, you have a man who can channel.. surrounded by hundreds of Aes Sedai. It's not a good mix, the guy would have to already be mad to walk into that. Especially if they somehow did find out he could channel and he doesn't have his fancy black cloak to back him up.

 

Even so, why would an AM be wasted as a spy in the Tower? They are killing tools, that's all Rand sees them as. If anybody would spy it would be current existing servants the way it's always been done.

[Mr Ares]

It's not like the AS are trying to undermind his power or anything.  They aren't trying to influence evnts and become the real power to the "light's side."

So why does he need an Asha'man?

 

And I also doupt the AS are planning a second attempt to bring him, or Mat and Perrin, under there direct control.

Why an Asha'man?

 

And I'm sure they just plan to leave the AM in peace, not like they're upset about the BT very existence.

So maybe he should have his Asha'man ready for war, not poncing around their enemies stronghold?

 

Rand doesn't need to know that Matino Stephenoes is still alive afterall.

You're right, he doesn't need to know that.

 

One AM could learn more about what's going going on in the WT and SAS camp then 30 eyes and ears, and they would have a better way of getting their information to him.

How? By wandering around like a servant? Anyone can do that, including people who are actually servants, and people who aren't at risk of being gentled. Rand does not have such a surplus of Asha'man that he can use them to do a job that anyone can do. Maybe have one come to collect information from sources in the Tower, if you can't wait for pigeons, but no need to have one permanently stationed there, doing the intelligence gathering. So I repeat the question: what good reason for using Asha'man as spies?

[Luckers]

How could you possibly learn how to do a weave by reading about it in a book?  At best, you could get enough hints to do some experimentation, and experimenting with balefire would be exceedingly dangerous.  [i suppose it is possible--Liandrin's Black sisters experimented with the balefire rod, nearly killing themselves--but it still seems improbable.]

 

Just pointing out, Egwene worked out how to make cuendillar based on a very very basic description of the concept by Moghedian who had no talent nor specific knowledge in that area. Ergo it is very possible to work out how to do a weaving based on a description.

[Auld Manriva]

Someone name me any group of people Rand has sent spies to watch .....  ??? It's not something he does ... ever. Scouts, yes, spies no. He uses info offered, but he doesn't assign spies.

 

Balefire is not something Moiraine learned on the way to Falme.. She'd been searching outside the Tower for what 18 years? I daresay she might have learned a thing or two from research etc. She hadn't learned about Dark Hounds the day before they attacked them. Seems pretty likely to me that she'd come across them before or had anticipated it from her understanding of prophecy and found a way to learn it. She wasn't a typical close minded AS in the way she approached things. Only in some. Plus she was, along with Siuan, one of the very most powerful AS to have come along in decades I think it mentioned in NS. Probably stronger or considered as strong in OP as Caddyshack. I don't think there was ever anyone she deferred to outside of Siuan. Not that I can recall. Moiraine is a baddass, just like Cads. Why? Because she chose to observe, keep an open mind, search and LEARN. Like a handful of other AS such as Verin.

[CUBAREY]

Someone name me any group of people Rand has sent spies to watch .....  It's not something he does ... ever.

 

Well we now for a fact he wanted to send "spies" to the Shado to find out their plans but the other Ail would have none of it.  That we have not seen him send spies otherwise does not mean he would not have done so pff-screen as he has no scrupples against using spies.

[Graendals favourite]

Balefire is not something Moiraine learned on the way to Falme.. She'd been searching outside the Tower for what 18 years? I daresay she might have learned a thing or two from research etc. She hadn't learned about Dark Hounds the day before they attacked them. Seems pretty likely to me that she'd come across them before or had anticipated it from her understanding of prophecy and found a way to learn it. She wasn't a typical close minded AS in the way she approached things. Only in some. Plus she was, along with Siuan, one of the very most powerful AS to have come along in decades I think it mentioned in NS. Probably stronger or considered as strong in OP as Caddyshack. I don't think there was ever anyone she deferred to outside of Siuan. Not that I can recall. Moiraine is a baddass, just like Cads. Why? Because she chose to observe, keep an open mind, search and LEARN. Like a handful of other AS such as Verin.

As to that, there is this quote from tDR, when Moiraine speaks of confronting Be'lal:

"Even the Forsaken cannot stand up to balefire," she said. He wondered if that was what she had used on the Darkhounds; it still made him uneasy, what he had seen, and what she had said then. "I have learned things in the last year, Perrin. I am... more dangerous than when I came to Emond's Field. If I can come close enough to Be'lal, I can destroy him. But if he sees me first, he can destroy us all, long before I have a chance." She turned her attention to Loial. "What can you tell me of Be'lal?"

I think before coming to Emond's Field, Moiraine did not have a concrete need to be more dangerous. She was already among the six strongest Aes Sedai, and any dangerous would come through discovery and hidden assassins or ambushes of the Black Ajah. After the Eye, there was no mistaking the Forsaken were in the world, and Aginor had shown her how insufficient her abilities were against them. Furthermore, there at Vandene and Adeleas's place she learned Mordeth was free and possible set to killing Rand. She had an acute need to learn to kill effectively, and with the need she found out how to. Either she searched through books, or asked other sisters who might know dangerous "forbidden" weaves that for example the Green sisters might know nevertheless, being the Battle Ajah and all. She could have even given the reason that Mordeth was loose to have them tell, and they would have, or that the Forsaken were. Though, Mordeth does have the problem, for Moiraine, that he is not a Darkfriend. Though Fain is, so perhaps given that the body at the very least was Fain's, she could kill him without restraint.

 

I do think quite a few sisters may know things "no one" knows, only they will generally not reveal that they know what they "shouldn't", so we get the impression they don't.

[Kaznen]

Rand sent spies to the Seanchan.  They would go to Ebou Dar and talk to soldiers.  Not just scout around.

 

And Egwene is learning to see the OP as a science, not ingredients for a recipe.  The other AS are more intressed in how the weave is done, not why it works.

[MikeRiley]

The ones that went to Ebou Dar were temporary to find out where the Seanchan were aiming at and what their strength was. He isn't planning an attack on the White Tower.