Who is Messana?

[Majsju]

It is correct that Tsutama hasn't actively been DOING suspicious things before CoT. Her being summoned back after 15 years makes her easy to impersonate, though. Tsutama has become even more of a suspect (of "something", at the very least) AFTER CoT.

 

Ignore KOD (and COT) for a bit. What actual clues does we have before COT that Tsutama is anything other than one of three Red sisters exiled from the Tower?

There is nothing, because she does not actually enter the story until KOD.

 

On the other hand, how likely is it that Mesaana would actively be DOING suspicious things just after infiltrating the Tower. I'd say that it isn't very likely. That's a reason NOT to suspect Danelle.

 

Not very likely? A Forsaken stumbles upon a chance to cause a great deal of damage to the organisation that is the greatest threat to the Shadows agenda, and all she needs to actively do is to bring in a bunch of soldiers disguised as workers. Workers assigned to the library, which is run by...the Brown Ajah.

And once the soldiers have done their job, hang around a bit with Elaidas entourage to make certain the damage is as great as possible, once that is done she drifts away into a very convenient obscurity.

 

Definitly more likely than say, one of the Forsaken killing a highly placed person in an empire with very strict customs, then convincing the empress to ignore the logical, planned choice, and name said forsaken as successor instead. Shortly before the empress' heir, whom said forsaken will escort pretty much 24/7, is to go on a very important journey.

 

Oh wait... ;D

[Nightstrike]

It is correct that Tsutama hasn't actively been DOING suspicious things before CoT. Her being summoned back after 15 years makes her easy to impersonate, though. Tsutama has become even more of a suspect (of "something", at the very least) AFTER CoT.

 

Ignore KOD (and COT) for a bit. What actual clues does we have before COT that Tsutama is anything other than one of three Red sisters exiled from the Tower?

I admitted that we haven't seen Tsutama doing things before CoT. I said that her being summoned back makes her easy to impersonate. She's the most likely suspect of those three.

 

There is nothing, because she does not actually enter the story until KOD.

Danelle hasn't been a big part of the story, either. She's been mentioned in passing a couple of times.

 

 

 

Not very likely? A Forsaken stumbles upon a chance to cause a great deal of damage to the organisation that is the greatest threat to the Shadows agenda, and all she needs to actively do is to bring in a bunch of soldiers disguised as workers. Workers assigned to the library, which is run by...the Brown Ajah.

You've got a point there, but why would Mesaana be involved herself in the front line? She's got all of the Black Ajah at her disposal. And she might secretly use compulsion on a bunch of other important Sisters.

 

And once the soldiers have done their job, hang around a bit with Elaidas entourage to make certain the damage is as great as possible, once that is done she drifts away into a very convenient obscurity.

Yeah, you've got a point. I think Danelle is at the very least Black Ajah. She might even be Mesaana, but that makes Mesaana something of a daredevil.

 

Definitly more likely than say, one of the Forsaken killing a highly placed person in an empire with very strict customs, then convincing the empress to ignore the logical, planned choice, and name said forsaken as successor instead. Shortly before the empress' heir, whom said forsaken will escort pretty much 24/7, is to go on a very important journey.

 

Oh wait... ;D

Yes, Semirhage is definately doing that kind of thing that Mesaana might have been doing. She's the closest thing to that among all the other Forsaken. Mesaana, Semirhage and Demandred must be some of the most competent among all the Forsaken.

 

[Nightstrike]

By the way, after CoT we've seen some evidence that there might be more to Tsutama Rath than meets the eye. So, at the very least, I think we should suspect her of something.

[Majsju]

I admitted that we haven't seen Tsutama doing things before CoT. I said that her being summoned back makes her easy to impersonate. She's the most likely suspect of those three.

 

You continue to avoid the crucial thing here. According to RJ, enough clues are there before COT. That makes tsutama pretty much impossible as a suspect

 

Danelle hasn't been a big part of the story, either. She's been mentioned in passing a couple of times.

 

Wait a minute, did you not use Danelles quite active role as evidence against her? Which way do you want it?

 

You've got a point there, but why would Mesaana be involved herself in the front line? She's got all of the Black Ajah at her disposal. And she might secretly use compulsion on a bunch of other important Sisters.

 

We have seen through one forsakens POV (Demandred if I recall correctly), that not all of them favours using Compulsion. As for using BA, breaking the WT seems like a too important task to risk deledating to incompetent children. Keep in mind that the forsaken does not think very highly of Aes Sedai.

 

Yeah, you've got a point. I think Danelle is at the very least Black Ajah. She might even be Mesaana, but that makes Mesaana something of a daredevil.

 

A daredevil? Not even close. A calculated risk with a quite good chance of success does not a daredevil make. If we look at the Tower after the coup, noone seems to have taken any special notion of Danelles role in the whole thing, not even the BA hunters, which kinda implies that what she did was not something extremely weird.

 

Yes, Semirhage is definately doing that kind of thing that Mesaana might have been doing. She's the closest thing to that among all the other Forsaken. Mesaana, Semirhage and Demandred must be some of the most competent among all the Forsaken.

 

If you compare them, both are doing the most forward moves in the beginning, Mesaana with her involvment in the coup, Semi with her not so subtle move to reach her position. Afterwards, Mesaana has slipped in to obscurity, and Semirhage settled in her role as truthspeaker.

[Nightstrike]

You continue to avoid the crucial thing here. According to RJ, enough clues are there before COT. That makes tsutama pretty much impossible as a suspect

And her coming back after 15 years doesn't make her an obvious suspect?

 

 

Wait a minute, did you not use Danelles quite active role as evidence against her? Which way do you want it?

OK, sorry if you take it that way. She's not been mentioned that many times, anyway. The role she took during Elaida's coup was during a time when we don't know whether Mesaana was in the Tower. And Mesaana hadn't been released from the Bore for long when that coup occured.

 

We have seen through one forsakens POV (Demandred if I recall correctly), that not all of them favours using Compulsion. As for using BA, breaking the WT seems like a too important task to risk deledating to incompetent children. Keep in mind that the forsaken does not think very highly of Aes Sedai.

No, you're right. I might be mistaken.

 

A daredevil? Not even close. A calculated risk with a quite good chance of success does not a daredevil make. If we look at the Tower after the coup, noone seems to have taken any special notion of Danelles role in the whole thing, not even the BA hunters, which kinda implies that what she did was not something extremely weird.

Yeah, you might be right. If someone suspects anything, simply use compulsion to make them forget.

 

If you compare them, both are doing the most forward moves in the beginning, Mesaana with her involvment in the coup, Semi with her not so subtle move to reach her position. Afterwards, Mesaana has slipped in to obscurity, and Semirhage settled in her role as truthspeaker.

The two most competent Forsaken being women. That must be a very weird twist of chance, women can't be superior to men, right?    :D     

 

 

But still, there must be something suspect with Tsutama Rath, even if she happens to be herself. Or, at least not Mesaana. Those blueberries. And Mesaana wasn't worried when Alviarin got sacked. Before that, Mesaana was worried about the Ajah Heads meeting. After that, Alviarin got sacked and Tsutama got promoted Highest of the Red Ajah. At the very least, I think Tsutama Rath must be Black Ajah.

 

 

[Majsju]

And her coming back after 15 years doesn't make her an obvious suspect?

 

Not really, considering that she was ordered to return by Elaida, just like Toveine and Lirene, the two other sitters exiled together with Tsutama.

 

OK, sorry if you take it that way. She's not been mentioned that many times, anyway. The role she took during Elaida's coup was during a time when we don't know whether Mesaana was in the Tower. And Mesaana hadn't been released from the Bore for long when that coup occured.

 

And there you have it. After an active role in the coup, she slips into obscurity. One would think that the normal thing to do here would be to grasp for a bit of influence, a little hope that Elaida might show some gratitude. But no, Danelle does not even become a sitter. She just...disappears. Perfect for someone who wants to work from the shadows. Go in, set the ball in motion, and then let the minor players just keep it rolling.

 

 

Yeah, you might be right. If someone suspects anything, simply use compulsion to make them forget.

 

Since we have seen POVs from those who should be the most suspicious, the BA hunters, I think it is safe to assume that the need for Compulsion has been quite miniscule.

 

But still, there must be something suspect with Tsutama Rath, even if she happens to be herself. Or, at least not Mesaana. Those blueberries. And Mesaana wasn't worried when Alviarin got sacked. Before that, Mesaana was worried about the Ajah Heads meeting. After that, Alviarin got sacked and Tsutama got promoted Highest of the Red Ajah. At the very least, I think Tsutama Rath must be Black Ajah.

 

I do not really see having a pile of dried berries being very alarming, and that is pretty much the greatest oddity we have seen from Tsutama.

That Mesaana does not care too much about Alviarin getting sacked, not very surprising as most of the useful things that can be accomplished by manipulating/blackmailing Elaida seems to have been done already.

[Nightstrike]

And her coming back after 15 years doesn't make her an obvious suspect?

 

Not really, considering that she was ordered to return by Elaida, just like Toveine and Lirene, the two other sitters exiled together with Tsutama.

What are you implying?

 

 

Since we have seen POVs from those who should be the most suspicious, the BA hunters, I think it is safe to assume that the need for Compulsion has been quite miniscule.

What does the BA hunters have to do with Elaida's coup?

 

 

I do not really see having a pile of dried berries being very alarming, and that is pretty much the greatest oddity we have seen from Tsutama.

She's changed behavior, too. And nothing says that the berries were dried. For someone to have dried blueberries that time of year, when everything else is spoiled due to the DO, would really be odd. Very odd.

 

 

That Mesaana does not care too much about Alviarin getting sacked, not very surprising as most of the useful things that can be accomplished by manipulating/blackmailing Elaida seems to have been done already.

What makes you think that anything accomplished is already done? Even if that had been right, what about gathering information (on Elaida and the rest)? And if there is nothing more to do at all, then why is Mesaana still in the Tower?

 

[Majsju]

What are you implying?

 

That Tsutamas return was not her own decision, it was Elaida that gave her an order to return.

Incidently, we get confirmation of Mesaana reciding in the WT before Elaida orders tsutama to return...

 

 

What does the BA hunters have to do with Elaida's coup?

 

Hmm, lets see...They are examining what sisters have done, hoping to catch someone in a lie. If what danelle did during the coup had been considered very strange behaviour, she would have been quite high on the list of sisters the BA hunters wanted to take a closer look at.

 

 

She's changed behavior, too. And nothing says that the berries were dried. For someone to have dried blueberries that time of year, when everything else is spoiled due to the DO, would really be odd. Very odd.

 

I would find it suspicious if she had spent 15 years in exile without changing...

And if everything else was spoiled, we would see mass starvation on a scale that the books does not even come close to.

 

 

What makes you think that anything accomplished is already done? Even if that had been right, what about gathering information (on Elaida and the rest)? And if there is nothing more to do at all, then why is Mesaana still in the Tower?

 

Mesaana seems to have been quite good at keeping an eye on Elaida without help, since she already knew everything Alviarin told her.

As for why she is staying in the Tower, there is more to the game than what Elaida has been made to do. An upcoming attack from the Seanchan, for example...

[Nightstrike]

What are you implying?

 

That Tsutamas return was not her own decision, it was Elaida that gave her an order to return.

Incidently, we get confirmation of Mesaana reciding in the WT before Elaida orders tsutama to return...

That Tsutama's return was ordered by Elaida is something I've been saying for a long time (several posts in this very thread alone). No need for you to imply that it was ordered by Elaida after all that. When did we get confirmation of Mesaana reciding in the WT before Elaida orders Tsutama to return? I've searched encyclopaedia WoT, and couldn't find any earlier mention. Have they missed to list it on that site? I mean, they do have a "chronology" list.

 

 

What does the BA hunters have to do with Elaida's coup?

 

Hmm, lets see...They are examining what sisters have done, hoping to catch someone in a lie. If what danelle did during the coup had been considered very strange behaviour, she would have been quite high on the list of sisters the BA hunters wanted to take a closer look at.

But the issue was whether or not Mesaana had used compulsion to make people "forget" things. Why would the BA hunters detect that? They are searching for BA members, and not people that are victims of Mesaana's compulsion.

 

 

She's changed behavior, too. And nothing says that the berries were dried. For someone to have dried blueberries that time of year, when everything else is spoiled due to the DO, would really be odd. Very odd.

 

I would find it suspicious if she had spent 15 years in exile without changing...

And if everything else was spoiled, we would see mass starvation on a scale that the books does not even come close to.

I think everything that is more than a couple of months old really is spoiled. That does not mean that you can't eat it. Even the tea is spoiled. I think Egwene commented on it.

 

 

What makes you think that anything accomplished is already done? Even if that had been right, what about gathering information (on Elaida and the rest)? And if there is nothing more to do at all, then why is Mesaana still in the Tower?

 

Mesaana seems to have been quite good at keeping an eye on Elaida without help, since she already knew everything Alviarin told her.

As for why she is staying in the Tower, there is more to the game than what Elaida has been made to do. An upcoming attack from the Seanchan, for example...

But that still doesn't explain why she isn't worried anymore why the Ajah Heads are meeting. Elaida wouldn't have known that. And the very fact that she knows things about Elaida speeks to her having inside information. That could mean someone that is now the Head of the Red Ajah. Alviarin is no longer the source of that particular information.

[mb]

I think it would be easier for Mesaana to imitate a sister that was first introduced at or after Dragon Reborn than for Mesaana to imitate a sister that was introduced before (chronologically).

 

[Cybertrolloc]

I was just pointing out that the Forsaken can sometimes walk and chew gum at the same time, and that they can do things off camera (surely there's enough examples of that--i.e. Semirhage and the other Shadowspawn in the Stone in tSR).

 

encyclopaedia-wot.org is down for me right now. Tsutama, Toveine and the red with Mat were brought back to the Tower at some point (the Red sitters blamed for the Cadsuane's Vileness)...probably fairly early on... Anyway, I don't see much to work off of about Tsutama except I think there's some hinting of a 13+13 turning to the shadow with her (Pevara's observations), but I wouldn't take that to the bank.

[Majsju]

That Tsutama's return was ordered by Elaida is something I've been saying for a long time (several posts in this very thread alone). No need for you to imply that it was ordered by Elaida after all that. When did we get confirmation of Mesaana reciding in the WT before Elaida orders Tsutama to return? I've searched encyclopaedia WoT, and couldn't find any earlier mention. Have they missed to list it on that site? I mean, they do have a "chronology" list.

 

I tend to look at the books rather than encyclopedia...Elaida mentions having ordered tsutama to return in the prologue to ACOS, the confirmation of Mesaana being in the Tower is early in LOC, though what is said in that chapter implies that she has been there for quite some time.

 

But the issue was whether or not Mesaana had used compulsion to make people "forget" things. Why would the BA hunters detect that? They are searching for BA members, and not people that are victims of Mesaana's compulsion.

 

No, Compulsion is not "the issue". I really do not understand why you feel Compelled to use that word in every single post.

 

I think everything that is more than a couple of months old really is spoiled. That does not mean that you can't eat it. Even the tea is spoiled. I think Egwene commented on it.

 

The same Egwene that gets honey in her tea? Granted, I am not an expert when it comes to bees, but I am pretty sure late spring/early winter is not their primary season for producing honey...

 

But that still doesn't explain why she isn't worried anymore why the Ajah Heads are meeting. Elaida wouldn't have known that. And the very fact that she knows things about Elaida speeks to her having inside information. That could mean someone that is now the Head of the Red Ajah. Alviarin is no longer the source of that particular information.

 

Perhaps a channeler from the AOl might now a trick or two about spying on people that 3rd Age Aes Sedai are absolutely clueless about...

[Nightstrike]

That Tsutama's return was ordered by Elaida is something I've been saying for a long time (several posts in this very thread alone). No need for you to imply that it was ordered by Elaida after all that. When did we get confirmation of Mesaana reciding in the WT before Elaida orders Tsutama to return? I've searched encyclopaedia WoT, and couldn't find any earlier mention. Have they missed to list it on that site? I mean, they do have a "chronology" list.

 

I tend to look at the books rather than encyclopedia...Elaida mentions having ordered tsutama to return in the prologue to ACOS, the confirmation of Mesaana being in the Tower is early in LOC, though what is said in that chapter implies that she has been there for quite some time.

I haven't said anything that contradicts what you just said. Elaida orders her back upon being raised. She was raised in book 4. We still don't know how long Mesaana has been in the Tower, we don't know if she's had the same identity all the time and we don't know if how much involved she personally was in the coup. Mesaana was establishe in Tar Valon in book 6, that's about all we know. And why would the chapter imply that she's been there for "quite some time". What is "quite some time", anyway? How long?

 

 

But the issue was whether or not Mesaana had used compulsion to make people "forget" things. Why would the BA hunters detect that? They are searching for BA members, and not people that are victims of Mesaana's compulsion.

 

No, Compulsion is not "the issue". I really do not understand why you feel Compelled to use that word in every single post.

But you still haven't explained what the BA hunters have to do with Mesaana's victims?

 

I think everything that is more than a couple of months old really is spoiled. That does not mean that you can't eat it. Even the tea is spoiled. I think Egwene commented on it.

 

The same Egwene that gets honey in her tea? Granted, I am not an expert when it comes to bees, but I am pretty sure late spring/early winter is not their primary season for producing honey...

Sugar lasts longer than protein and fat. It still might taste funny, if the DO can do anything about it, but I bet you'll get used to funny tastes after a while.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Maj has mostly covered everything--and i think quite well.

 

But as an aside, its clear Tsutama is not Mesaana in the simple nature of their personalities. We've seen descriptions of both by people very adept at studying people, and they are utterly different. Mesaana does not have Tsutama's hardness, nor her strength i suspect. We even see the two in the same time frame after Shaidar Haren tortures Mesaana and Tsutama is as strong as ever, whilst Mesaana looks pale and sick-like.

 

Besides--how did Mesaana learn all those curses, much less the more important question, why would she bother?

 

It's the same reason the Be'lal=Taim argument does not work. You cant fake such personality traits so consistantly.

[Nightstrike]

Maj has mostly covered everything--and i think quite well.

Doesn't change the fact that the only thing we know is that Mesaana was in the Tower in book 6. We know of nothing sooner. We don't know if she was involved in the coup, whether she was involved personally or through others that knew the Tower better. And we don't know if she's had the same alias all the time.

 

But as an aside, its clear Tsutama is not Mesaana in the simple nature of their personalities. We've seen descriptions of both by people very adept at studying people, and they are utterly different.

If you're trying to impersonate someone else, you're bound to have to change behavior accordingly.

 

Mesaana does not have Tsutama's hardness, nor her strength i suspect.

I don't think we know enough to judge that.

 

We even see the two in the same time frame after Shaidar Haren tortures Mesaana and Tsutama is as strong as ever, whilst Mesaana looks pale and sick-like.

Illusion?

 

Besides--how did Mesaana learn all those curses, much less the more important question, why would she bother?

Don't know how or why, but it's not impossible.

 

It's the same reason the Be'lal=Taim argument does not work. You cant fake such personality traits so consistantly.

Why would they be fake?

 

 

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:41:02 AM

Maj has mostly covered everything--and i think quite well.

 

Doesn't change the fact that the only thing we know is that Mesaana was in the Tower in book 6. We know of nothing sooner. We don't know if she was involved in the coup, whether she was involved personally or through others that knew the Tower better. And we don't know if she's had the same alias all the time.

 

You are quite correct. Maj having covered those arguments, or that i agree with his coverage, doesn't change that you said them.

 

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But as an aside, its clear Tsutama is not Mesaana in the simple nature of their personalities. We've seen descriptions of both by people very adept at studying people, and they are utterly different.

 

If you're trying to impersonate someone else, you're bound to have to change behavior accordingly.

 

 

That would depend on who you were impersonating. Tsutama is stated from the moment of her return to be different to what she was. Thus, if no one had a basis for examining Tsutama's behaviour why would Mesaana change it. And why so specifically--including specific Third Age curses. And how would Mesaana fake the things like the way Tsutama's words are so different from her tone. And most specifically, we have seen Mesaana when stressed--she betrays it. How would a woman so weak have such strength of control as to maintain the Tsutama persona.

 

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Mesaana does not have Tsutama's hardness, nor her strength i suspect.

 

I don't think we know enough to judge that.

 

 

What's to know--we've seen Mesaana pressed hard, we've seen her weakness. We've also seen Tsutama's strength. Whether you think it or not, we've seen enough to compare the two, and know they are different.

 

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We even see the two in the same time frame after Shaidar Haren tortures Mesaana and Tsutama is as strong as ever, whilst Mesaana looks pale and sick-like.

 

Illusion?

 

Excuse me? Illusion can change hair colour, not temprement.

 

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Besides--how did Mesaana learn all those curses, much less the more important question, why would she bother?

 

Don't know how or why, but it's not impossible.

 

No, but it is implausible, which is the point. Mesaana presenting a Tsutama persona is utterly rediculous. She had no reason to do so--none in the tower knew Tsutama, even the memories of her are not relevant to the current reality. So why invent this elaborate persona with the swearing with a normal tone and the never still eyes..

 

Indeed, how would any one maintain such a deception. No one can keep their eyes constantly moving if it is not their natural expression, which it is not for Mesaana, which is completely the point.

 

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It's the same reason the Be'lal=Taim argument does not work. You cant fake such personality traits so consistantly.

 

Why would they be fake?

 

What? 'Why would they be fake?'--we know Mesaana's tics--we've seen her in action. If she were Tsutama as you claim, then everything Tsutama does, all her little personality traits would by necesity be fake. Mesaana does not swear in a completely normal tone, she does not constantly move her eyes looking for prey--she, in fact, betrays none of Tsutama's personality traits. Which is precisely the point.

 

Tsutama is too different from Mesaana in ways that are too minute to fake so consistently. Sorry-Ttsutama is not Mesaana.

[Nightstrike]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:41:02 AM

Maj has mostly covered everything--and i think quite well.

 

Doesn't change the fact that the only thing we know is that Mesaana was in the Tower in book 6. We know of nothing sooner. We don't know if she was involved in the coup, whether she was involved personally or through others that knew the Tower better. And we don't know if she's had the same alias all the time.

 

You are quite correct. Maj having covered those arguments, or that i agree with his coverage, doesn't change that you said them.

No, it doesn't. And it doesn't change the fact that the things I said were correct, either.

 

 

But as an aside, its clear Tsutama is not Mesaana in the simple nature of their personalities. We've seen descriptions of both by people very adept at studying people, and they are utterly different.

That would depend on who you were impersonating. Tsutama is stated from the moment of her return to be different to what she was. Thus, if no one had a basis for examining Tsutama's behaviour why would Mesaana change it. And why so specifically--including specific Third Age curses. And how would Mesaana fake the things like the way Tsutama's words are so different from her tone. And most specifically, we have seen Mesaana when stressed--she betrays it. How would a woman so weak have such strength of control as to maintain the Tsutama persona.

Were they Third age curses? Anyway, why would Mesaana be involved in the front line of the coup? More importantly, how could she even pull it off? I don't know about Tsutama's habits. I think we know too little about Mesaana to even start comparing them.

 

 

What's to know--we've seen Mesaana pressed hard, we've seen her weakness. We've also seen Tsutama's strength. Whether you think it or not, we've seen enough to compare the two, and know they are different.

Are you talking about the Shaidar Haran incident? Because that isn't indicative. We don't know how much of Mesaana's alias that is acting.

 

 

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We even see the two in the same time frame after Shaidar Haren tortures Mesaana and Tsutama is as strong as ever, whilst Mesaana looks pale and sick-like.

 

Illusion?

 

Excuse me? Illusion can change hair colour, not temprement.

Pale and sicklike can become tan and freckled.

 

Mesaana might not be Tsutama, but I'm not entirely convinced that she is Danelle either. Even if Tsutama isn't Mesaana, I think there still has to be something very suspect about her. Maybe she's Black Ajah? There's definately more to Tsutama than "meets the eye".

 

 

[Majsju]

I haven't said anything that contradicts what you just said. Elaida orders her back upon being raised. She was raised in book 4. We still don't know how long Mesaana has been in the Tower, we don't know if she's had the same identity all the time and we don't know if how much involved she personally was in the coup. Mesaana was establishe in Tar Valon in book 6, that's about all we know. And why would the chapter imply that she's been there for "quite some time". What is "quite some time", anyway? How long?

 

In LOC, we learn that Mesaana have not only figured out that Aes Sedai use a Binder, she has also had time to let that information slip in an argument with Semi. (This bit of info ties in with what Luckers said about the difference in temperament between Tsutama and Mesaana, as we here have a great example of Mesaana losing control when pressed.) We further learn that Mesaana has had time to study the wards around the Towers collection of angreal. And, we finally learn that Mesaana is involved in the plan to kidnap Rand.

In context, this strongly hints at Mesaana having been in the Tower for some time. And gthe timespan from the coup, or even from the first sighting of Mesaana, to LOC is not that great.

 

But you still haven't explained what the BA hunters have to do with Mesaana's victims?

Because this is something you have come up with, instead of looking at what I actually said.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

In LOC, we learn that Mesaana have not only figured out that Aes Sedai use a Binder, she has also had time to let that information slip in an argument with Semi.

When did she slip this? In book 6? We know that Mesaana was in the Tower in book 6. Semirhage knew about the binder, too. But, as far as I'm aware, Semirhage hasn't been to the Tower. Where did Semirhage learn about it? Could she have learnt it from Ishamael - he must have know about it for a long time, right?

 

But you still haven't explained what the BA hunters have to do with Mesaana's victims?

Because this is something you have come up with, instead of looking at what I actually said.

No, I didn't make it up. I must be misunderstanding something instead. This is where the misunderstanding comes from:

A daredevil? Not even close. A calculated risk with a quite good chance of success does not a daredevil make. If we look at the Tower after the coup, noone seems to have taken any special notion of Danelles role in the whole thing, not even the BA hunters, which kinda implies that what she did was not something extremely weird

 

Yeah, you might be right. If someone suspects anything, simply use compulsion to make them forget.

 

Since we have seen POVs from those who should be the most suspicious, the BA hunters, I think it is safe to assume that the need for Compulsion has been quite miniscule.

I can't see any reasons for why POVs from BA hunters would mean that Mesaana's need for Compulsion would be miniscule. Why would they?

 

 

 

[claireducky]

I agree with Maj on Danelle:

 

RJ has had a couple of things to say on the matter. He told "Tallis" at the Harvard Coop signing [January 18, 2003] that "there are many clues as to Mesaana's identity, enough that we should figure it out before COT. He basically said that he'd full-out reveal her in upcoming books, though: '...and if you still don't know, well, you'll find out later.'"

 

When asked if we have actually seen Mesaana's alter ego in the Tower, RJ said, yes, we have [Robert Mee, Bailey's Crossroads signing, VA, January 23, 2003].

 

Tsutsama was not specifically introduced until after CoT, and so I think that should rule her out by itself.

 

 

My theory is that Messy took over Danelle AFTER the coup.  This would clear up the argument of there not being enough time for her to do that.  Danelle was likely Black Ajah, and in a place of prominence. She then for no given reason faded away.  That working in the shadows is very characteristic of Messy, and so if she conveniently removed Danelle after the coup, she could fade away so as not to draw attention to herself.

 

She is dreamy and friendless, which would have made the real Danelle easy to "replace". Alviarin specifically places Danelle among the sisters with no close friends or ties when ruminating on who Mesaana could be [ACOS: Prologue, Lightnings, 41].

 

 

[Luckers]

No, it doesn't. And it doesn't change the fact that the things I said were correct, either.

 

Well again you are right. That i agreed with Maj does not directly change the correctness of your comments. Maj's comments however did, at least in my humble opinion.

 

 

 

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But as an aside, its clear Tsutama is not Mesaana in the simple nature of their personalities. We've seen descriptions of both by people very adept at studying people, and they are utterly different.

 

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That would depend on who you were impersonating. Tsutama is stated from the moment of her return to be different to what she was. Thus, if no one had a basis for examining Tsutama's behaviour why would Mesaana change it. And why so specifically--including specific Third Age curses. And how would Mesaana fake the things like the way Tsutama's words are so different from her tone. And most specifically, we have seen Mesaana when stressed--she betrays it. How would a woman so weak have such strength of control as to maintain the Tsutama persona.

 

Were they Third age curses? Anyway, why would Mesaana be involved in the front line of the coup? More importantly, how could she even pull it off? I don't know about Tsutama's habits. I think we know too little about Mesaana to even start comparing them.

 

Firstly yes, they were third age curses. The language should be a hint. Curses are coloquiel, a function of language. and social position.

 

 

From there, what are you talking about, Mesaana being in the front line of the coup? I presume you are speaking of Danelle, which i agree with--but im not sure how thats relevant to this discussion. Please clarrify so i can answer your curiosity, coz honestly im a bit confused by the segue.

 

As for the rest--once again, we have direct stated commentaries about the habits of both Tsutama and Mesaana--if you don't know enough about their habits then i suggest you begin a serious re-read. I'll even point you in the right direction. Aran'gar's POV, and Pevara's POV.

 

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What's to know--we've seen Mesaana pressed hard, we've seen her weakness. We've also seen Tsutama's strength. Whether you think it or not, we've seen enough to compare the two, and know they are different.

Are you talking about the Shaidar Haran incident? Because that isn't indicative. We don't know how much of Mesaana's alias that is acting.

 

That, and after it. The Forsaken Coffee Hour in KoD shows Mesaana weak, pale. Aran'gar wonders if she is sick, but it is the result of Shaidar Haren's treatment. At the same time Tsutama is meeting with Pevara and Javindhra and betraying no weakness. Why would Mesaana betray herself to people who actually threaten her position, and yet be so successful in hiding her weakness with those who don't matter?

 

 

We even see the two in the same time frame after Shaidar Haren tortures Mesaana and Tsutama is as strong as ever, whilst Mesaana looks pale and sick-like.

 

Illusion?

 

 

Excuse me? Illusion can change hair colour, not temprement.

Pale and sicklike can become tan and freckled.

 

Mesaana might not be Tsutama, but I'm not entirely convinced that she is Danelle either. Even if Tsutama isn't Mesaana, I think there still has to be something very suspect about her. Maybe she's Black Ajah? There's definately more to Tsutama than "meets the eye".

 

Mesaana's weakness did not present only in paleness--she was erratic, emotional... As i said illusion cannot hide temprement.

 

I agree about the end though--my theory involving Tsutama is that she was the one who killed Sierin vayu. Recall that Siuan had slipped a note under her door about her suspicions concerning the deaths of Tamra and her hunters, and that Chesmal claimed to have incited someone to kill her in order to save the Black.

 

Chesmal would have been a target for Sierin, she was the one who announced Meilyn's death, yet this is directly after Jarna Milari was killed by Ishamael for killing tamra, so the black were afraid of acting out too much.

 

I figure Chesmal incited Tsutama into killing Sierin in order to protect the Red's Hunt-and-Destroy mission, which Tsutama was of course a key figure in.

 

As a side note, i suspect it was Duhara--who was Sierin's Keeper--who told Chesmal about the search. An interesting situation with chesmal and Duhara both in Caemlyn.

 

 

[Majsju]

When did she slip this? In book 6? We know that Mesaana was in the Tower in book 6. Semirhage knew about the binder, too. But, as far as I'm aware, Semirhage hasn't been to the Tower. Where did Semirhage learn about it? Could she have learnt it from Ishamael - he must have know about it for a long time, right?

Since when do we have any hints of Semi learning about the Binders from someone other than Mesaana? And since when does Ishy walk around actually sharing information with anyone if he does not have to?

 

No, I didn't make it up. I must be misunderstanding something instead. This is where the misunderstanding comes from:

A daredevil? Not even close. A calculated risk with a quite good chance of success does not a daredevil make. If we look at the Tower after the coup, noone seems to have taken any special notion of Danelles role in the whole thing, not even the BA hunters, which kinda implies that what she did was not something extremely weird

 

Yeah, you might be right. If someone suspects anything, simply use compulsion to make them forget.

 

Since we have seen POVs from those who should be the most suspicious, the BA hunters, I think it is safe to assume that the need for Compulsion has been quite miniscule.

I can't see any reasons for why POVs from BA hunters would mean that Mesaana's need for Compulsion would be miniscule. Why would they?

 

Lets see, you are the one trying to bring Compulsion into the mix, without any reason whatsoever. You are the one trying to bring Mesaanas "victims" into the mix, without any reason whatsoever.

 

Lets try this one more time then.

The BA hunters are looking for evidence of sisters acting in a strange way. They are very cautious when doing this, not approaching anyone unless they have a very strong reason to do so. And when they do approach someone, they meet the suspect as a group. With me so far? Ok.

 

If Danelles participation in the coup had been suspect behaviour, she would have been quite high on the list of suspects the BA hunters would want a chat with, since such a thing if so very odd would stand out far more than, say the Salidar sister they manage to catch, whose suspect behaviour had been claiming coming to Tar Valon from a different direction than she actually did. Kinda shows just how thorough the BA hunters are.

Now, if Danelles behaviour had been so odd, logically the hunters would have approached her. Which we know they did not, since Alviarin is ordered to hunt down the hunters. Had Mesaana been approached by the hunters, and figured out what was going on, she would know the identity of at least one.

 

Nowhere in this does Compulsion or "victims" fit.

[Nightstrike]

Since when do we have any hints of Semi learning about the Binders from someone other than Mesaana?

Wasn't that how she learned that Mesaana was in the Tower? Or am I confusing Semirhage with someone else?

 

Edit: seems like I was mistaken. It was probably Graendal that got that clue.

 

Now, if Danelles behaviour had been so odd, logically the hunters would have approached her. Which we know they did not, since Alviarin is ordered to hunt down the hunters. Had Mesaana been approached by the hunters, and figured out what was going on, she would know the identity of at least one.

 

Nowhere in this does Compulsion or "victims" fit.

OK, that explains how we could misunderstand each other. My thought was that all that "suspicions" would have been delt with Compulsion. To make them forget. So the BA hunters would have nothing to go by.

 

*shrugs* Maybe Danelle is Mesaana after all. But I'll still keep my hopes up that there really is something odd with Tsutama.