morgase and tam

[Cillian]

I agree with Mike Riley about Abel. He was the one who went with Tam all the way to Tar Valon (IIRC)to find the youngsters.

 

I still think it was Tam that Morgase met, for no particular reason beyond what's been said in this thread and well, it'd be a nice little "It's a small world after all" type thing, y'know? They bumped into each other somehow 20+ years ago and now their kids are getting it on. :D

 

Agree that it's not likely she went there.  More likely that someone, maybe from Deven Ride, Watch Hill or Taren Ferry (places of which we know very little, if anything about) may have passed through Caemlyn.  Aside from all the other issues with the Tam theory, I just can't get comfortable with the timing.  I think she says that she recognizes TR speech from when she was young.  Makes me think adolescence or before, not T minus 20 some odd years.  Not sure about the timeing though! 

 

We'll she's not old, I'd put her about 40 or so. So 20+ years ago she would have been young.

[jsbrads]

This isn't LOST where every character met every other character's family and friends before reaching the island.

 

I don't think no one ever left... ever! just people did not go and become famous, they returned home to lead a normal life in TR, I doubt Tam was the only person in the Aiel War, attics have armor, weapons, ppl have been involved in the world they just return home and stay.

 

Morgase has a young beefcake on her menu, Tallanvor, and she is only 38ish (at begin of series) and Tam seems 50 something minimum.

The prior queen left a couple years b4 rand born (Rand and Galad are only a couple years apart).

Morgase entered politics as a teenager. She probably did not go further than Bearlon.

"No one saw a tax man in generations, much less a queen's guard." I assume nobility do not visit backwaters so far away that national police don't go there.

[Kaznen]

I doupt any one from the TR went as far as Baerlon except Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nyneave, and Tam.

Apart from the fact that people in Baerlon recognize the Two Rivers accent.

No one knew they were from the TR unitl they said they were.  People just knew they were from "down country."

 

But, Kari is from Caemlyn, so even if she wasn't related to Lini or Reene HArfor she would have family in the city.  So her, Tam, and baby Rand would have spent more then a night there, they probally stayed until spring.

And why isn’t this mentioned? I mean, Rand knows he’s heading toward Caemlyn quite early on.

 

Why is there no “I’ve been here before, but I can’t remember.” Or, “Damn, I wish I could remember where uncle so-and-so lives”?

 

Doesn’t look like it.

 

Sounds like more conjecture.

I didn't say they stayed there until Rand was 13, just the winter.

 

And how much do you remember from your first year of life?

 

I doupt Tam thought it would be okay to travel all the why in the unuasally hard winter because Aiel are hardy folk.  But staying until spring when the weather warms and the roads are clear doesn't sound unreasonable.  Look at the diffucultly they had in PoD.

And they way things were after the war TAm would have wanted to travel wearing his sword openly, with the herons clearly displayed, to discourage trouble.  And even if he wasn't wearing his armor, if he still had it, I doupt he had much else to wear then his Companion uniform.  They would have need to travel light and save as much money as possible to buy a farm in the TR.

 

So a guard would see him coming dressed like an Illian soilder, tell his officer and the officer would be "holy crap, not just a soilder from Illian, but a Companion, not just a Companion but an officer, BLOOD AND ASHES, not just an officer but the second in command of the Companions....the Queen will want to know."

Hang on…

 

So Tam, wearing a sword and Illianer armor arouses suspicion…?

 

Right.

 

Firstly, Tam was an officer. I seriously doubt that he would only have had his uniform.

 

Secondly, why would his carrying a sword, at a time in which, presumably, everyone wore swords, arouse suspicion/interest?

 

Thirdly, how would anyone know, even if Tam were in uniform, that he was second in command of the Companions, unless he announced it to them?

 

He had a heron on his sword, that would discourage bandits.  The reasonn khaki pants are so popular today is because after WW2 the G.I.s using there G.I. Bills to go to college wore them because they were good pants and they wanted to save money.

 

And wearing a uniform could help discourage earlier said bandits.  If they saw an officer from the Aiel War with a heron marked sword they may think it wise to look elsewhere.

 

 

A farmer in TR probally produces several wagon loads of tabac a year.  By buying in bulk the merchants are able to afford the frieght cost and the guards are not just dressing.

Conjecture… unless you’re a specialist in medieval tobacco farming.

First of all, there was no tobacco farming in the middle ages.  Tobacco, like corn, tomatoes, and potatoes where unknown in Europe, Asia, and Africa unitl 1492 when Columbus "discovered" America.  Smoking did not become popular until the late 16th century when it was marketed by Sir Francis Drake.

 

Second, Rj has said the setting is 19th without the guns.

 

Third, and this is from growing up in a small town in Indiana, To be a successful commericial farmer ones needs to raise a very large surplus.  If a farm only produces enough goods to use themsleves they are substance farmers.  You don't hear about the TR folk exporting grain, but the people from the area know how to farm it.

 

And the population of TR is not large.  So for enough TR tabac to know throughout Randland, the Aiel Waste and beyond every farms needs to produce a lot of tabac.  Enough for several wagons.  It is the backbone of their local economy.

 

 

 

At the end of the day, there’s a sound reason for Morgase to have heard Two Rivers accents before. She is their queen, it’s her job to be informed. The area does, after all, produce a unique crop, one that, presumably, her accountants would keep an interest in.

 

That’s much more likely than Morgase remembering a chance conversation with a man 20 years previously. Which is essentially what you’re arguing.

She must have heard the accent from watching the news.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Rank insignia. Those things they use to make officers easier to identify (makes war more sporting).

And there the same from state to state? Unlikely.

 

Plus, that’s assuming that he’s wearing his uniform. Which, if he had other clothing, he’d be unlikely to be doing. Given that he was a high ranking officer, he most likely had other clothing.

No mines in the TR.

So, what were the prospectors looking for, and why the fuss? And I said region, not the TR. There is metal in the area.

Such an interest that the people there haven't seen a tax collector in generations. They keep an eye on the mines in the Mountains of Mist, though.

Perhaps the goods are taxed when they arrive at whatever city they’re moving to.

Really, the only reason to say it was Tam is that we know Tam was out in the world. Which really not much to go on. But it seems a bit more reasonable than Morgase going to visit the middle of nowhere in order to meet some tobacco farmers who barely even remember they are part of Andor.

Firstly, who said Morgase went to the TR? Secondly, who said she went to meet the farmers? Helps if you read the posts.

Tam would have given up his rank insignia with the uniform. The sword would be all he kept of it because it was something awarded to him (or battle spoils?).

Not necessarily. My relations and family friends who were in the military kept their uniforms, insignia, medals, and swords.

Apart from the fact that people in Baerlon recognize the Two Rivers accent.

No one knew they were from the TR unitl they said they were.  People just knew they were from "down country."

So what? If I hear an accent that’s clearly from a region, I don’t need to know what town they’re from.

I didn't say they stayed there until Rand was 13, just the winter.

 

And how much do you remember from your first year of life?

Ahhh… so they went to visit the relatives one time during his entire life!? That’s stretching it beyond credibility.

He had a heron on his sword, that would discourage bandits.

Hmmm… Rand has a heron-blade that’s easily covered by a simple strip of cloth. Herons don’t sound as if they make the sword leap out at people.

And wearing a uniform could help discourage earlier said bandits.  If they saw an officer from the Aiel War with a heron marked sword they may think it wise to look elsewhere.

Or they might think that the officer had money… cut’s both ways. Especially if said officer had to protect a wife and child…

First of all, there was no tobacco farming in the middle ages.  Tobacco, like corn, tomatoes, and potatoes where unknown in Europe, Asia, and Africa unitl 1492 when Columbus "discovered" America.  Smoking did not become popular until the late 16th century when it was marketed by Sir Francis Drake.

Thanks, I’m aware of the history of tobacco smoking.

 

OK…. What period is TWoT based on?

 

In TWoT people farm tobacco…

 

Are you an expert on middle age tobacco farming techniques?

 

No.

 

Furthermore, if it is in the C19th were in England was tobacco farmed (given that Andor is England)?

Second, Rj has said the setting is 19th without the guns.

Hmmmm…. That’s odd.

 

There are a heap of inventions that should be commonplace then and aren’t.

 

Can you give a source for that RJ statement?

Third, and this is from growing up in a small town in Indiana, To be a successful commericial farmer ones needs to raise a very large surplus.  If a farm only produces enough goods to use themsleves they are substance farmers.  You don't hear about the TR folk exporting grain, but the people from the area know how to farm it.

Right…. So where are the large-scale plantations in the TR?

She must have heard the accent from watching the news.

LOL.

 

Right, there you go.

 

**

My point is that constructing a whole theory based upon Morgase remembering a conversation with Tam 20 years previously is a stretch.

 

It’s much more likely that she has met someone from the TR before.

 

That and the fact that “nobody ever leaves” is a stereotypical image.

 

That said, I’ll be the first to eat my hat if Tam and Morgase have a reunion in AMoL and it turns out to be true.

 

Strikes me as unlikely, given that the two of them are in the same camp and haven’t interacted at all; I’d have thought that if RJ was going to do this, he’d have done it a while ago.

[Kaznen]

 

 

So what? If I hear an accent that’s clearly from a region, I don’t need to know what town they’re from.

I didn't say they stayed there until Rand was 13, just the winter.

 

And how much do you remember from your first year of life?

Ahhh… so they went to visit the relatives one time during his entire life!? That’s stretching it beyond credibility.

 

Grab whatever WoT book is handy, I'll wait...........

 

Now, open the cover.....

 

Locate Tar Valon, it's on the middle of the top third of the second page, you know, where the Aiel finally killed Laman and were Rand was born and where Tam most likely left the army.

 

Now locate the Two Rivers, it's just left of the crease in the middle and if you need further help Emonds Field is clearly labled.

 

Now do a mapquest in your head for the way to get from Tar Valon to the Two Rivers....

 

Every expediate way you go they would have to go through Caemlyn.  And it is winter mind.

 

Now, what makes you think they wouldn't go see any of Kari's releatives if they were passing through the city.  I never said they made regualar trips.  But just that once they would have gone to Caemlyn ON THEIR WAY TO TWO RIVERS and maybe thought it would be a good idea to wait till spring to continue.  And being it was the last time they would be in this part of the world, it would be a good idea to visit any kin to say goodbye.

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Locate Tar Valon, it's on the middle of the top third of the second page, you know, where the Aiel finally killed Laman and were Rand was born and where Tam most likely left the army.

 

Now locate the Two Rivers, it's just left of the crease in the middle and if you need further help Emonds Field is clearly labled.

 

Now do a mapquest in your head for the way to get from Tar Valon to the Two Rivers....

 

Every expediate way you go they would have to go through Caemlyn.  And it is winter mind.

Ahhhh... the patronizing. Fantastic.

 

Done? Thanks.

Now, what makes you think they wouldn't go see any of Kari's releatives if they were passing through the city.  I never said they made regualar trips.  But just that once they would have gone to Caemlyn ON THEIR WAY TO TWO RIVERS and maybe thought it would be a good idea to wait till spring to continue.  And being it was the last time they would be in this part of the world, it would be a good idea to visit any kin to say goodbye.

I get what you said.

 

My problem with the above, and it is entirely reasonable, is this....

 

To suggest that Rand and Tam would only have visited Kari's family one time in Rand's lifetime is, to me, a little odd.

 

Simple.

 

**

Again, your entire theory hangs on the fact that Tam and Morgase met and that Morgase remembers having a conversation with him, 20 years after the event.

 

Problems:

1. Why would Tam and Morgase meet?

2. It is stretching credibility somewhat to think that Morgase would remember meeting him.

 

Everything else that you've added to support the theory is pure conjecture.

 

That, to me, stretches credibility.

 

The simple answer is that RJ's "nobody ever leaves the Two Rivers (or more specifically, Emond's Field)" is a touch overstated and that people do, in fact, leave.

 

But, as I said, if they confirm that this was in fact the case in AMOL, then I will post to admit that it isn't incredible after all.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Again, your entire theory hangs on the fact that Tam and Morgase met and that Morgase remembers having a conversation with him, 20 years after the event.

 

Problems:

1. Why would Tam and Morgase meet?

2. It is stretching credibility somewhat to think that Morgase would remember meeting him.

 

Everything else that you've added to support the theory is pure conjecture.

 

That, to me, stretches credibility.

admit that it isn't incredible after all.

In addition, as mentioned earlier... if Morgase DID remember Tam al Thor from 20 years ago, why wouldn't she have been able to connect it with this guy who fell into her garden named Rand al Thor?  Wouldn't she have said something like... "hey, when I was younger, I remember meeting someone with the same name as yours who didn't look a whole lot like you but he also carried a Herron Mark swork and he sure had the same accent as you too". 

 

[Mr Ares]

And there the same from state to state? Unlikely.

So what? Unless you don't think Andor has people capable of recognising a high ranking Illian officer?

 

Plus, that’s assuming that he’s wearing his uniform. Which, if he had other clothing, he’d be unlikely to be doing. Given that he was a high ranking officer, he most likely had other clothing.

Irrelevant. You asked how would they know, even if he was in uniform. That is how.

No mines in the TR.

So, what were the prospectors looking for, and why the fuss? And I said region, not the TR. There is metal in the area.

The TR is a region. A region with no mines. Which prospectors? The term, at least, is never used in the books. Nor is Morgase a prospector, so how is this relevant to her having heard the accent? There is metal in the Mountains of Mist, and mines there. No need for Queens, though. Any prospectors in the TR obviously had no luck.

Such an interest that the people there haven't seen a tax collector in generations. They keep an eye on the mines in the Mountains of Mist, though.

Perhaps the goods are taxed when they arrive at whatever city they’re moving to.

Perhaps. Assumptions keep piling up, no matter which way you lean on the issue. And if they tax the goods far away from the TR, surely that reduces the chances of TR people being there? And thus the chances of hearing the accent from such a source.

 

Firstly, who said Morgase went to the TR? Secondly, who said she went to meet the farmers? Helps if you read the posts.

Well, the idea of Morgase going to the TR has been put around in the thread, and given the numbers of farmers there it stands to reason that had she gone there, she would have met farmers, even if only in passing. Helps if you read the posts. If you want actual names, I can provide. One name that springs to mind is a guy calling himself "The Thin Inn Keeper", who said (and I quote): "1. She has been to the Two Rivers, probably before she was queen." Thus this individual (to whit, yourself) did certainly give voice to the possibility of her going there.

 

Second, Rj has said the setting is 19th without the guns.

Hmmmm…. That’s odd.

Wotmania contains a list of the inventions of Rand's academies, and when their real world counterparts were developed.

Some Analysis of the Real World Timing of the Academy’s Inventions:

 

Paper making: laid paper 1750s

Printing press: levered Stanhope press early 1800s

Multiple furrow plough: 1800s

Horse drawn sickle bar hay mower: 1850-60s

Loom: flying shuttle 1733

Water, sewerage and road infrastructure: late 1700s-mid 1800s

Astronomical telescope: 1609

Anaerobic bacterial decomposition of cattle dung: 1808

Gliders: from 1850s

Steam engine: 1712

Steam engine transport: 1769

Leyden jar: 1745

 

Most of the inventions date from 1700 to 1860 in our world.

 

Now, all we know is that Morgase did, at some point, come into contact with someone from the TR. And, as previously stated, she has no reason to go there, and such a visit would be memorable, and yet remains unmentioned, so is unlikely. The only reason to think it might be Tam is that he was out in the world. The rest is just grasping at straws. There is no need for elaborate theories.

[MikeRiley]

Tam would have given up his rank insignia with the uniform. The sword would be all he kept of it because it was something awarded to him (or battle spoils?).

Not necessarily. My relations and family friends who were in the military kept their uniforms, insignia, medals, and swords.

 

Yeah, but it's also possible in Randland it's custom that the uniform be given up. What we do know is that Rand was surprised to see a sword on Tam and he never saw a uniform around the house. If anybody remembers the box that was described in Eye of the World that Tam stored the sword in under the bed.. I don't. I'm betting it was long and thin though and not big enough for clothes.

 

We're all just arguing and re-arguing the same points, though. Morgase could have met Tam at one point but it's highly unlikely. It's one of those things we're never going to know.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

So what? Unless you don't think Andor has people capable of recognising a high ranking Illian officer?

No... again, this is all tied in to the proposal that was put forward which said, essentially, that Tam would instantly be recognised for what he was as he would be wearing uniform.

 

To which, the answer is, not necessarily.

Irrelevant. You asked how would they know, even if he was in uniform. That is how.

Nope. Personally, I think the idea that he'd be traipsing around in uniform is a little off. There you go.

 

The post you quoted was a response to someone who essentially thinks that he’d always be in uniform, which is a position I reject anyway.

The TR is a region. A region with no mines. Which prospectors? The term, at least, is never used in the books.

I forget the book and will have to paraphrase.

 

Two men approach Perrin for rights to mine in the hills above Emond's Field. Perrin essentially says "Go ahead", Faile jumps in and makes sure he gets a cut. Faile then explains how lords are supposed to gather income.

 

Prospectors.

 

Metal in the hills. Mines not too far away from the TR --> Mines and metal in the region.

Nor is Morgase a prospector, so how is this relevant to her having heard the accent? There is metal in the Mountains of Mist, and mines there. No need for Queens, though.

Ok.. Again... people from the region trade these items. Trade tends to go through big cities. Caemlyn = Big city. Therefore, not totally beyond the realms of possibility that Morgase has heard the regional accent.

Any prospectors in the TR obviously had no luck.

Wrong. See above re. Perrin and Faile.

Perhaps. Assumptions keep piling up, no matter which way you lean on the issue.

True. However, they pile up on the 20 year old conversation and chance meeting theory too.

And if they tax the goods far away from the TR, surely that reduces the chances of TR people being there? And thus the chances of hearing the accent from such a source.

Probably, yes.

 

That's not to say that, as part of the tabac industry, TR people don't travel. It’s also true to say that Abel Cauthon probably travelled.

 

People deal with outsiders, it’s not a revolutionary theory.

Well, the idea of Morgase going to the TR has been put around in the thread, and given the numbers of farmers there it stands to reason that had she gone there, she would have met farmers, even if only in passing. Helps if you read the posts. If you want actual names, I can provide. One name that springs to mind is a guy calling himself "The Thin Inn Keeper", who said (and I quote): "1. She has been to the Two Rivers, probably before she was queen." Thus this individual (to whit, yourself) did certainly give voice to the possibility of her going there.

*Sigh*… if you actually read the post you've quoted ... you'll realise that you have just taken what I've written totally out of context to prove a point.... I think you’ll also see that that was one option I presented and that I later said “It’s not even important if she got there”.

 

In any case, helps if you actually read the posts (like the one you distorted):

Morgase has heard the accent. Big deal.

 

The options available are:

 

1. She has been to the Two Rivers, probably before she was queen.

2. Someone from the Two Rivers has talked to her in another part of Andor.

3. She is lying.

Off your high horse please, I presented her visit to the region as an option, one that I did not endorse. One that I am actually arguing against.

 

Kindly, don't misrepresent me to back up a point you can't support.

Some Analysis of the Real World Timing of the Academy’s Inventions

All of which have just been invented.

 

i.e. they’re not out there in the world.

 

I could finally figure out how to turn lead into gold this evening. Sure, it’s been discovered, but people aren’t doing it on a widespread basis.

Now, all we know is that Morgase did, at some point, come into contact with someone from the TR. And, as previously stated, she has no reason to go there, and such a visit would be memorable, and yet remains unmentioned, so is unlikely. The only reason to think it might be Tam is that he was out in the world. The rest is just grasping at straws. There is no need for elaborate theories.

Which is precisely what I’ve been saying.

 

The most sensible answer is that people do travel from the TR. Plain and simple.

 

The alternative is that Tam (the one guy who's out and about apparently), meets Morgase. Morgase remembers the conversation with Tam for 20 years.

 

This despite the fact that other people would clearly have to travel. They'd travel to support their industries, they'd travel to buy and sell horses (Abel), they'd travel to hire gleemen. They clearly had travelled at some time as there were rusty weapons all over the place.

 

But no... let's stick with the 20 year old conversation. Because, clealry, in the 20 or so years since Rand's birth, the only person to have travelled outside the TR is Tam.

 

Doesn't make any sense at all.

Yeah, but it's also possible in Randland it's custom that the uniform be given up. What we do know is that Rand was surprised to see a sword on Tam and he never saw a uniform around the house. If anybody remembers the box that was described in Eye of the World that Tam stored the sword in under the bed.. I don't. I'm betting it was long and thin though and not big enough for clothes.

Yeah, it is.

 

But … he’d hardly bother with his uniform and medals when faced with a horde of trollocs, he’d go straight for the sword. Given that swords require care and, 99% of the time are supplied with a scabbard, or other storage case, it'd probably be in a different box to his uniform.

 

- Anyway, to me this is irrelevant, I don’t believe he’d have been in uniform during his trip home.

We're all just arguing and re-arguing the same points, though. Morgase could have met Tam at one point but it's highly unlikely. It's one of those things we're never going to know.

Agreed.

[Kaznen]

The Miner's in LoC were refuges from Arad Doman, Tarabon, or Almoth Plain.  They saw likly deposites of gold, silver, and iron.  They asked Faile for money and permission to start mining operations and she said yes as long as they gave 10% of their gold and silver her husband and mined the iron also.

 

Perrin was upstairs on the balcony watching Tam and Aram practice when this happened.

 

And okay, maybe you're right about them visiting family if there were any in Caemlyne.

 

I guess the Emonds Field Regional Airport that Rand would have gone to to fly to Caemlyn International was closed for Bel Tine in tEotW.  That's why they spent 2 months traveling to Caemlyn on foot, while being chased.

 

I think it's time for some one to do another re-read.

[benr]

The assumption that Tam is the only possibility for Morgase to have heard Three Rivers accents is ludicrous.

[MikeRiley]

The mines are a new thing, there were none in the Two Rivers up until those prospectors met with Perrin. The closest thing they had to it was the quarry road and they only assumed that it led to some ancient quarry. The only thing to ever come out of the Two Rivers was wool and tabac, it's said. Until now, anyway. That actually might have been what Faile was saying right after the prospectors left, even. I know somebody said it somewhere.

[Mr Ares]

So what? Unless you don't think Andor has people capable of recognising a high ranking Illian officer?

No... again, this is all tied in to the proposal that was put forward which said, essentially, that Tam would instantly be recognised for what he was as he would be wearing uniform.

If he was wearing uniform, he most likely would be. Now, we don't have any reason to have him in uniform, other than he would presumably still have his. On the other hand, we don't know what clothes he was wearing.

 

The TR is a region. A region with no mines. Which prospectors? The term, at least, is never used in the books.

I forget the book and will have to paraphrase.

 

Two men approach Perrin for rights to mine in the hills above Emond's Field. Perrin essentially says "Go ahead", Faile jumps in and makes sure he gets a cut. Faile then explains how lords are supposed to gather income.

 

Prospectors.

 

Metal in the hills. Mines not too far away from the TR --> Mines and metal in the region.

Ah, yes, I remember now. This would be after Morgase left,though, and so does nothing to support your point about her hearing the accent this way. At the time, there were no mines in the region. So, not relevant.

Ok.. Again... people from the region trade these items. Trade tends to go through big cities. Caemlyn = Big city. Therefore, not totally beyond the realms of possibility that Morgase has heard the regional accent.

Big cities with lots of people. Queens tend not to meet with every merchant passing through, though. I'm not saying it's beyond the bounds of possibility, not even suggesting anything remotely like that.

Perhaps. Assumptions keep piling up, no matter which way you lean on the issue.

True. However, they pile up on the 20 year old conversation and chance meeting theory too.

Which part of "which way you lean on the issue" went over your head? After all, either way we start having to make assumptions. Her hearing it from Tam relies on a house of cards with the only foundation being that Tam was out and about in the world.

 

Well, the idea of Morgase going to the TR has been put around in the thread, and given the numbers of farmers there it stands to reason that had she gone there, she would have met farmers, even if only in passing. Helps if you read the posts. If you want actual names, I can provide. One name that springs to mind is a guy calling himself "The Thin Inn Keeper", who said (and I quote): "1. She has been to the Two Rivers, probably before she was queen." Thus this individual (to whit, yourself) did certainly give voice to the possibility of her going there.

*Sigh*… if you actually read the post you've quoted ... you'll realise that you have just taken what I've written totally out of context to prove a point.... I think you’ll also see that that was one option I presented and that I later said “It’s not even important if she got there”.

 

In any case, helps if you actually read the posts (like the one you distorted):

Morgase has heard the accent. Big deal.

 

The options available are:

 

1. She has been to the Two Rivers, probably before she was queen.

2. Someone from the Two Rivers has talked to her in another part of Andor.

3. She is lying.

Off your high horse please, I presented her visit to the region as an option, one that I did not endorse. One that I am actually arguing against.

 

Kindly, don't misrepresent me to back up a point you can't support.

*Sigh*...You're not in the mood for reading at the moment, are you? Really you should, helps to be sure that the other person is, in fact, saying what you think they are. Because if you read the post you quoted, you might have noticed this line: "give voice to the possibility". Now, I know this might be a tricky phrase to wrap the head around, so I will try to simplify. I did not say you supported it. I did not say you endorsed it, nor did I try to claim that that was the sole possibility put forward in your post. I did only say that you made mention of that possibility, which is the plain and simple truth. Even if, as you claim, you were arguing against that possibility, then surely you must be arguing against someone, and therefore someone else must have put forward the possibility, and thus my dismissal of this would thus be supporting you.  Maybe, if you actually took the time to understand the words I have put down, then you would see that all I did was say that the point had been put forward in the thread, despite your denial that it had been, and I proved that it had been put forward by you, among others. You made mention of it. It is that simple. So, maybe if you were to descend from your elevated equine, and actually bother reading, you would see that. You might even work out what my position is on the issue. So, no taking out of context, no distortion, just me presenting the plain and simple facts to you. And now you change your position from "no-one has said", when that possibilty had been put forward (by you, at the very least), to "I was arguing against that", when in your last post you were denying it had ever happened (and even arguing against means you put it forward, if only to dismiss it, thus you did exactly as I said you did). What next?

Some Analysis of the Real World Timing of the Academy’s Inventions

All of which have just been invented.

 

i.e. they’re not out there in the world.

So what? How long before they became widespread isn't relevant. They were invented, for the most part, between 1700-1860. So how is Randland Mediaeval? Answer: it isn't. It is inventing things, and has social structures and fashions, etc., the real world had in the 18th and 19th centuries, with the exception of firearms technology being lacking.

 

I could finally figure out how to turn lead into gold this evening. Sure, it’s been discovered, but people aren’t doing it on a widespread basis.

Again, so what? If you invented such a process today, it was invented today. Doesn't matter how before it became widespread.

Which is precisely what I’ve been saying.

Funny, it's precisely what I've been saying as well.