morgase and tam

[MikeRiley]

The messengers know a lot about an officer in Tear's army for giving sketchy details on the biggest battle of their lifetime. Morgase had her own officers in the battle, there were Andorans fighting for Andor there. Tam had a newborn baby to take to his wife and he slipped away immediately after the battle. It's doubtful he would have stayed more than a night in Caemlyn or would have gone to see the queen even if he did. He wasn't in armor by this point, he had his sword which a lot of Andorans carry.

 

But really, Morgase was accounted a great queen, she wouldn't have sat clueless hoping a knowledgeable person decides to pass through. This battle was so huge it had all of the nations allied temporarily and it would be of the utmost importance that the rulers know all of what's going on with such an alliance that had foreign soldiers marching everywhere.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Merchant caravans come down to the TR to buy wool and Tabac.  So they have business there.

That's a really weak brush off.

 

;D

[Matrim DeLaneous]

I've been wondering whether the fact that morgase has "heard two rivers speech before" means that she met tam sometime in the distant past. any thoughts?

 

lol.. some of these threads...?  Morgase seems like a pretty sharp lady.  If she had talked to a guy named Tam al Thor... don't you think she'd have connected it with a young man by the name of Rand al Thor after he fell into her garden?  Especially when he comes right out and says the Heron Marked sword was from his father?  As others have pointed out... Emonds Field is only one town in the TR's.  We don't know anything about Deven Ride folks, Watch Hill folks or that Tehren (sp) Ferry folks.  Seems like there's a recurring tendency to over complicate the story. 

[Kaznen]

All the nobles, even the good nobles like Elayne and Morgase, look down on the commoners like, "I'm better then you."  They may be polite, and respectful but they still had the "I'm up here, you're down there" attitude.

 

Tam, despite having a high military rank, was a commoner.  SO she would remember, "Two Rivers, not many people from there leave," "high ranking soldier," "wife has a new baby, I'm about to have my first baby" but as for his name he would just be some dude I once talked to from the Two Rivers.

[Cillian]

All the nobles, even the good nobles like Elayne and Morgase, look down on the commoners like, "I'm better then you."  They may be polite, and respectful but they still had the "I'm up here, you're down there" attitude.

 

Tam, despite having a high military rank, was a commoner.  SO she would remember, "Two Rivers, not many people from there leave," "high ranking soldier," "wife has a new baby, I'm about to have my first baby" but as for his name he would just be some dude I once talked to from the Two Rivers nearly 20 years ago.

 

Fixxxed :D

[Scutum Fidei]

All the nobles, even the good nobles like Elayne and Morgase, look down on the commoners like, "I'm better then you."  They may be polite, and respectful but they still had the "I'm up here, you're down there" attitude.

 

Tam, despite having a high military rank, was a commoner.  SO she would remember, "Two Rivers, not many people from there leave," "high ranking soldier," "wife has a new baby, I'm about to have my first baby" but as for his name he would just be some dude I once talked to from the Two Rivers.

 

Your argument really relies on Morgase being so thick-headed and up-herself that she wouldn't remember the name of the Andoran blademaster who is/was Second Captain of The Companions of Illian who has just fought in the Aiel War and according to you, possibly had brought vital news from the front lines at Tar Valon?

 

Not likely.

[Kaznen]

As Cillina pointed out it was 20 years ago.  And she has talked to and met many soldiers from Andor and other counrties in that time.

 

And I'm not saying the news was vital.  But I think Tigraine Damodred (her husband) was to busy command troops and doing whatever the First Sword Prince does to write detailed reports about what the armies are doing and how the battles went.  And a messenger would be lowranking and they wouldn't have a clue about what Anglemar and Niall were thinking.

 

And I'm sure Tam told King Stephenoes he was leaving, he doesn't seem like a deserter to me, he would have resigned his commsion properlly (The king did give him that sword afterall).

 

So not vital news, but as he was fairly high up the command chain (Stephenoes was on the council afterall) she could question him for hours to learn what happened and what is going to happen and who is doing what about it.  And as he wasn't in her guard she wouldn't see him again.  She would have been more concerned about what he was then who he was.

 

And a lot of the returning armies would be passing through Andor if not Camlyne itself.

[MikeRiley]

Her messengers wouldn't have been in the form of a few farmers deciding to visit Caemlyn. She was considered a great queen and that was a war. She would have known everything that was going on or heads would roll for it if she had to ask another country's officers for news. They would have had a system set up that would keep her up to date. It isn't a matter of her war-leader not having time to write detailed reports, somebody else would be doing that and better than he would anyway. She was not a clueless halfwit girl sitting on the side waiting for people to pass through.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

From the scene where Morgase meets Rand, it seems her only knowledge of Two Rivers was from books. Whether she met any person from there, she does not say one way or the other.

Considering she specifically states she has heard TR speech when she was young, and recognises it in Rand, I would say that the only way she could have heard it from a book is if the Westlands have audiobooks.

 

Pretty damned funny!!!    :D

[Epic]

I would think that there are only two possible solutions: either she's lying and never heard a Two River's accent, which doesn't seem like Morgase, or she'd met Tam.  She would have never gone to the Two Rivers as a child, she's not a merchant and would have no business there, and I don't seem to recall Elayne ever mentioning any Trakand holding anywhere around there, so she wouldn't have go to visit.

I would also like to point out that at this point Morgase had just ascended to the thrown and was not a mighty Queen yet and probably wouldn't hate getting another perspective on the battle at TV, or even information on Mattin Stepanoes from one of the high ranking officers of Illian, but I don't think that this is how Tam and Morgase would've met.

I think that they met because Rand, Tam's new-found son, is so strongly Ta'Veren.  I think that his being so strongly Ta'Veren would have brought Tam and Kari and Morgase together while they were in Caemlyn.  They probably would have been there for a few days to take in the sites and would be in no hurry to leave, they'd have had a very young child with them and would still probably be winter.  At some point during their stay, Rand being Ta'Veren pulled them together, don't know how or why, I just think that its reasonable explanation.

 

And as a side not to the whole Two Rivers tabac being famous, that was Jordan borrowing elements from tLotR.  In tLotR, the shire was famous for its pipeweed, was also at the back end of forever, and is it just me or do the myrdraal and wringwraiths seem really similar.

[MikeRiley]

Taren Ferry folk dealt with strangers a lot and went places. They're from the Two Rivers. It's easily possible she heard the accent without meeting Tam.

[Kaznen]

Tarren Ferry don't go much further then a couple of villages north of the Tarren.  I doupt any one from the TR went as far as Baerlon except Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nyneave, and Tam.

 

But ta'veren are not taveren from teh seconf they are born, as much as I don't want to put down Epic's support, Rand, Mat, and Perrin didn't start becoming ta'veren, as in weaving the pattern around them, until around the time Moriane came to TR.

 

But, Kari is from Caemlyn, so even if she wasn't related to Lini or Reene HArfor she would have family in the city.  So her, Tam, and baby Rand would have spent more then a night there, they probally stayed until spring.

 

And they way things were after the war TAm would have wanted to travel wearing his sword openly, with the herons clearly displayed, to discourage trouble.  And even if he wasn't wearing his armor, if he still had it, I doupt he had much else to wear then his Companion uniform.  They would have need to travel light and save as much money as possible to buy a farm in the TR.

 

So a guard would see him coming dressed like an Illian soilder, tell his officer and the officer would be "holy crap, not just a soilder from Illian, but a Companion, not just a Companion but an officer, BLOOD AND ASHES, not just an officer but the second in command of the Companions....the Queen will want to know."

[ROB_88]

i don't think that NOONE at all goes to the outside world except Tam.

someone had to go outside to call in Thom for Bel Tine

[Auld Manriva]

First of all Morgase was not always queen. Not even a high seat always. The Trakand family did not sit on the Lion Throne before she assumed it. Rand's family the Mantear's did. Does anyone know exactly where in Andor the Trakand lands are? Their mines? This land on which whatever it is has been recently discovered? Oh Hey! Mining is a big deal in western Andor! Gosh, I can't imagine her father taking little Morgase along on a trip to their properties which she would need to manage one day... Preposterous thought. People in Baerlon recognized the Two Rivers speech and dress. Makes one think maybe they were sort of seen about now and again maybe.

 

Why would she have had to hear Two Rivers speech from Tam? Especially when she said she'd heard Two Rivers speech when she was little? Which would not have been even 10 years before the Aiel War in all likelihood. She was a teen herself when she took the throne I think. Noble Andoran families don't necessarily have little contact with the people in their lands. Witness Gareth Bryne's relationship with the people in his. Admittedly his was not a great house, but it would not necessarily be unusual.

 

Anyone recall the rusty weapons that appeared when Trollocs came? The mail that mayor al'Vere wore? Abell Cauthon's military experience that was inferred? Tam was not the only one of his generation to leave the Two Rivers. Just the most notable. Speaking of Abell, does a Horse Trader never leave his immediate vicinity? Not hardly, not a "successful" one.

 

Let me provide a contemporary example. In the Western U.S. it's a commonly held belief that Utahans hardly leave Utah. Well they do. They usually return at some point, though not always. It never leaves their hearts though, not in my 30 years experience in CA, AZ and in Utah.

[Kaznen]

Between Whitebridge and Baerlon is wilderness, no farms, villages, estates, anything.

 

Between Baerlon and Two Rivers are just farms and villages, no estates.  And from Morgaes's PoV in tFoH in the Mountains of Mist by Baerlon are just mines and minning towns.

 

The only "lord" to come out of western Andor was "Lord Gaberial."

 

The only noble authority in that part of Andor is the Govenor(ess) of Baerlon.  The Queen's Guard doesn't go west of Whitebridge

[mb]

I would think that there are only two possible solutions: either she's lying and never heard a Two River's accent, which doesn't seem like Morgase, or she'd met Tam.

Those are not the only possibilities.

Like others told, Morgase was not always queen; and she technically was not daughter-heir before becoming queen.

Morgase herself might not have had business in Two Rivers, but her father might have and took her along; or perhaps Two Rivers was on the way to the destination.

 

[Kaznen]

If a powerfu lord from a powerful house of Andor came to TR for what ever "business" he had they would STILL have been talking about itat the beginning of tEotW, in that they would be comparing him to the Lady Moriane. 

 

And when she about 16 Morgase went to the WT and become a novice, she probally did novice things with Suine and Moraine if she was still there when they arrived.

 

When she left succesion started.

 

[MikeRiley]

Because, you know, a tabac seller won't take his stuff to the powerful lord in hopes that the lord will buy more from him at a good price.

[Kaznen]

A farmer in TR probally produces several wagon loads of tabac a year.  By buying in bulk the merchants are able to afford the frieght cost and the guards are not just dressing.

 

No noble in RAndland has ever been directly involved in a merchanting venture, they have to much to do.  What their estates produce are sold by their stewards so the noble can focus on their other duties.

 

If a farmer were to try and sell his stok himslef he would make less money, even if the price is doubled, because he would have to pay the frieght, lodging while he was away, and protection.

 

Plus, unlike the merchants, he wouldn't know where the markets are or who to talk to once he got there.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Tarren Ferry don't go much further then a couple of villages north of the Tarren.

Conjecture.

I doupt any one from the TR went as far as Baerlon except Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nyneave, and Tam.

Apart from the fact that people in Baerlon recognize the Two Rivers accent.

 

I guess Tam passed through Baerlon 20 odd years ago, they must remember it from then.

But, Kari is from Caemlyn, so even if she wasn't related to Lini or Reene HArfor she would have family in the city.  So her, Tam, and baby Rand would have spent more then a night there, they probally stayed until spring.

And why isn’t this mentioned? I mean, Rand knows he’s heading toward Caemlyn quite early on.

 

Why is there no “I’ve been here before, but I can’t remember.” Or, “Damn, I wish I could remember where uncle so-and-so lives”?

 

Doesn’t look like it.

 

Sounds like more conjecture.

And they way things were after the war TAm would have wanted to travel wearing his sword openly, with the herons clearly displayed, to discourage trouble.  And even if he wasn't wearing his armor, if he still had it, I doupt he had much else to wear then his Companion uniform.  They would have need to travel light and save as much money as possible to buy a farm in the TR.

 

So a guard would see him coming dressed like an Illian soilder, tell his officer and the officer would be "holy crap, not just a soilder from Illian, but a Companion, not just a Companion but an officer, BLOOD AND ASHES, not just an officer but the second in command of the Companions....the Queen will want to know."

Hang on…

 

So Tam, wearing a sword and Illianer armor arouses suspicion…?

 

Right.

 

Firstly, Tam was an officer. I seriously doubt that he would only have had his uniform.

 

Secondly, why would his carrying a sword, at a time in which, presumably, everyone wore swords, arouse suspicion/interest?

 

Thirdly, how would anyone know, even if Tam were in uniform, that he was second in command of the Companions, unless he announced it to them?

i don't think that NOONE at all goes to the outside world except Tam.

someone had to go outside to call in Thom for Bel Tine

ROB_88… you’re forgetting the “Gleeman Hotline” … it dials straight into the Gleeman Residence.  ;D

Between Whitebridge and Baerlon is wilderness, no farms, villages, estates, anything.

 

Between Baerlon and Two Rivers are just farms and villages, no estates.  And from Morgaes's PoV in tFoH in the Mountains of Mist by Baerlon are just mines and minning towns.

You do remember all the fuss Faile made about mines? Valuable source of income. I’m sure Morgase knew about the region.

The only "lord" to come out of western Andor was "Lord Gaberial."

The only lord worth mentioning, surely.

If a powerfu lord from a powerful house of Andor came to TR for what ever "business" he had they would STILL have been talking about itat the beginning of tEotW, in that they would be comparing him to the Lady Moriane.

Perhaps that’s because the merchants go to the towns around the 2 Rivers? And that’s where people have heard the accent before?

A farmer in TR probally produces several wagon loads of tabac a year.  By buying in bulk the merchants are able to afford the frieght cost and the guards are not just dressing.

Conjecture… unless you’re a specialist in medieval tobacco farming.

 

Fact is, there is commerce. Enough commerce to have spread the reputation of Two Rivers tabac around the world. This would necessitate dealings. Dealings which would involve people moving around. People moving around means that people hear their accent.

No noble in RAndland has ever been directly involved in a merchanting venture, they have to much to do.  What their estates produce are sold by their stewards so the noble can focus on their other duties.

Sure, that’s not to say that they haven’t met the people involved.

 

Like an earlier poster said, we see how Gareth is in touch with his people. It’s not impossible.

If a farmer were to try and sell his stok himslef he would make less money, even if the price is doubled, because he would have to pay the frieght, lodging while he was away, and protection.

 

Plus, unlike the merchants, he wouldn't know where the markets are or who to talk to once he got there.

Uhhh… I don’t think anyone’s claiming that the farmers try to sell it themselves, just that there are enough people involved for the accent to have become recognized.

 

**

 

At the end of the day, there’s a sound reason for Morgase to have heard Two Rivers accents before. She is their queen, it’s her job to be informed. The area does, after all, produce a unique crop, one that, presumably, her accountants would keep an interest in.

 

That’s much more likely than Morgase remembering a chance conversation with a man 20 years previously. Which is essentially what you’re arguing.

[Nasty Butler]

I would think that there are only two possible solutions: either she's lying and never heard a Two River's accent, which doesn't seem like Morgase, or she'd met Tam.  She would have never gone to the Two Rivers as a child, she's not a merchant and would have no business there, and I don't seem to recall Elayne ever mentioning any Trakand holding anywhere around there, so she wouldn't have go to visit.

You can't think in such specific absolutes here, there's just not enough info on the subject to make such a statement.  Its like the Canada thing-

Person A:"Oh you're from Canada?  Oh then obviously you must know Bob, right?  All Canadians know each other."

Person B:"Bob who? What part of Canada is he from?"

A:"I think its some small town called Toronto."

B:"I live in Vancouver."

A:"Well that's close to Toronto, isn't it?"

B:"Yeah, its pretty close, only about 4,000 miles apart."

A:"Well, there isn't that many people in Canada, surely you know Bob!" 

B:"Yeah, 33 million people isn't that much.  I'm sure I know him."

  We don't have enough info to say "No one EVER leaves Two Rivers."  Thats just a generalization that the locals(Emond's Fielders) use, there could be plenty of people from the other towns that have left the area to see the world who Morgase might have had a chance to hear speak.  And there is WAY too many people in the world for there to be a CHANCE encounter between two people like Morgase and Tam, I mean heck there are HUNDREDS of thousands of people in the Shaido clan alone, theres 13 clans, and thats just the Aiel, there could be lots more people in the wetlands. 

  I wouldn't be suprised if a well travelled gleeman or court bard could replicate a number of different accents, including a Two Rivers accent.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

[quote author=The Thin Inn Keeper link=topic=40636.msg1075342#msg1075342 At the end of the day, there’s a sound reason for Morgase to have heard Two Rivers accents before. She is their queen, it’s her job to be informed. The area does, after all, produce a unique crop, one that, presumably, her accountants would keep an interest in.

 

That’s much more likely than Morgase remembering a chance conversation with a man 20 years previously. Which is essentially what you’re arguing.

 

Exactly... and lastly, why try and make it any more complicated?

[Mr Ares]

or perhaps Two Rivers was on the way to the destination.

The Two Rivers isn't on the way to anywhere. It is very much out of the way, unless it happens to be your destination. And the TR isn't a Trakand holding. What reason for a Lord or Lady to go so far out of their way? While Morgase has undoubtedly met someone from the TR, it is more likely that it was someone who had left the TR rather than actually going there herself.

 

Thirdly, how would anyone know, even if Tam were in uniform, that he was second in command of the Companions, unless he announced it to them?

Rank insignia. Those things they use to make officers easier to identify (makes war more sporting).

You do remember all the fuss Faile made about mines? Valuable source of income. I’m sure Morgase knew about the region.

No mines in the TR.

At the end of the day, there’s a sound reason for Morgase to have heard Two Rivers accents before. She is their queen, it’s her job to be informed. The area does, after all, produce a unique crop, one that, presumably, her accountants would keep an interest in.

Such an interest that the people there haven't seen a tax collector in generations. They keep an eye on the mines in the Mountains of Mist, though.

 

Really, the only reason to say it was Tam is that we know Tam was out in the world. Which really not much to go on. But it seems a bit more reasonable than Morgase going to visit the middle of nowhere in order to meet some tobacco farmers who barely even remember they are part of Andor.

[MikeRiley]

Tam would have given up his rank insignia with the uniform. The sword would be all he kept of it because it was something awarded to him (or battle spoils?).

 

Something I thought of.. There's a bit of talk about merchant guards in Emonds Field, so they did get more than just the once a year peddler. Mat lost some money dicing with a guard, Perrin's axe was meant for another. So it's likely the farmers didn't even have to go to Taren Ferry to sell the tabac.

 

Still, I think the description Robert Jordan gave about the place and nobody leaving it is just to say how isolated it is. It's in the back end of nowhere, the people are real sheep herders with hay in their hair and all that. I don't think he literally meant nobody but Tam ever left. Besides, we hear that comment from a bunch of farm boys who thought they were the world and didn't know the history of half their own village. Rand had no idea Tam had a sword, he knew Tam left at some point and came back with Kari and that was it.

 

We have Mat, Rand and Perrin who have been as far away as the mountains! They were so full of themselves for being adventurers that they really didn't consider they were following in the footsteps of the generation before them. I could see Mat learning his father was in Ebou Dar before, "You left the Two Rivers?" I don't think (at the time in book 1) he would have believed it, because while a capable horse trader his father was his father and not as adventurous as him. He does adulty things and disappears while the kids have fun. Not that I'm saying Abel actually went to Ebou Dar, mind you, I just think he's a good candidate for one of those villagers who actually left the village.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Really, the only reason to say it was Tam is that we know Tam was out in the world. Which really not much to go on. But it seems a bit more reasonable than Morgase going to visit the middle of nowhere in order to meet some tobacco farmers who barely even remember they are part of Andor.

 

Agree that it's not likely she went there.  More likely that someone, maybe from Deven Ride, Watch Hill or Taren Ferry (places of which we know very little, if anything about) may have passed through Caemlyn.  Aside from all the other issues with the Tam theory, I just can't get comfortable with the timing.  I think she says that she recognizes TR speech from when she was young.  Makes me think adolescence or before, not T minus 20 some odd years.  Not sure about the timeing though!