Elza Penfell

[lgautam]

Elza the Green Aes Sedai gets hit by this blinding realization that Rand has to live to the Last Battle to face the Dark One. It doesn't make much sense, considering that the Forsaken were ordered to stop him, capture him or kill him. Couldn't Verin have something to do with this intense belief. I mean, after all she used a weak form of Compulsion on Beldeine to make her serve Rand.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Elza the Green Aes Sedai gets hit by this blinding realization that Rand has to live to the Last Battle to face the Dark One. It doesn't make much sense, considering that the Forsaken were ordered to stop him, capture him or kill him. Couldn't Verin have something to do with this intense belief. I mean, after all she used a weak form of Compulsion on Beldeine to make her serve Rand.

My understanding of this is that Darkfriends believe that the Dark One has to face and defeat the Dragon to acheive total victory and that anything else wouldn't guarentee success.

 

I was under the impression that she rationalized her support of Rand by tying it to her support of the Dark One.

[Luckers]

Your correct, this is a result of Verin's compulsion. Her method of compulsion equires that her victim rationalise it within their own heads--they have to find their own reasons for doing it, even if those reasons are extreme. In Elza's case she settled on the idea of Rand needing to be alive in order to die facing the Dark One thus insuring the Dark One's victory.

 

It makes sense that she is such a zealot in her belief--the less credibility the idea has, the more blind the person must be.

[mb]

Like another poster told, it was because of Verin's Compulsion.  Verin used Compulsion on all of the Aes Sedia prisoners.

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

I always thought Elza had simply come to the conclusion that the best way to ensure that the DO won Tarmon Gaidon is to make sure that Rand gets there to fight and then lose to him.

 

I can see how Verin's Compulsion pushed that idea and conclusion, though, I had not thought of that.  I just remember reading in Crossroads of Twilight where Elza is talking to her Warder and thinks to herself "it had become blindingly clear to her that Rand had to reach Tarmon Gaidon...else how could the Dark One defeat him there?"

 

which in my opinion was one of the creepier statements in these books.  Like when you look for the good in someone and then suddenly realize that it isn't there...that's how I felt.  I thought Elza had some good in her but I realize her motivations are purely committed to the Dark One.

 

Creepy.

[cannon]

Like another poster told, it was because of Verin's Compulsion.  Verin used Compulsion on all of the Aes Sedia prisoners.

 

I don't think so.  I seem to remember it specifically stating that Verin only "questioned" the Aes Sedai who didn't have warders.  She was too afraid that the Warder would be able to sense her shenanigans.

 

Elza has a Warder, so I assumed that she came to the conclusions on her own.

[Gentled Ben]

She started with the ones who did not have Warders, but she did not indicate that she intended to skip them.

[mb]

Like another poster told, it was because of Verin's Compulsion.  Verin used Compulsion on all of the Aes Sedia prisoners.

 

I don't think so.  I seem to remember it specifically stating that Verin only "questioned" the Aes Sedai who didn't have warders.  She was too afraid that the Warder would be able to sense her shenanigans.

 

The warders of the prisoners would not have been able to sense the channeling.  Warders could only sense the taint of the Dark One; Compulsion is not tainted.

Compulsion would be the only thing that could explain the fealty.  The prisoners would not have swore fealty to Rand otherwise.

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

weren't there other Aes Sedai that swore fealty though who did not undergo Verin's questioning?  I remember that Irgaine and Sashelle (I think?) had been stilled but after they were Healed they immediately swore fealty to Rand and those who were stilled were kept away from the other Aes Sedai, so Verin would not have been able to weave Compulsion on them.

 

some of the fealty must then be attributed to ta'veren I suppose.

[mb]

weren't there other Aes Sedai that swore fealty though who did not undergo Verin's questioning?  I remember that Irgaine and Sashelle (I think?) had been stilled but after they were Healed they immediately swore fealty to Rand and those who were stilled were kept away from the other Aes Sedai, so Verin would not have been able to weave Compulsion on them.

 

some of the fealty must then be attributed to ta'veren I suppose.

 

Only way taverenness would have worked is if they were in his presence.  Just the first prisoners who swore were in Rand's presence, yet they decided to swear fealty when they would out of his presence.  The wording might have been due to taverenness, but the decision was not.

Compulsion would be the only explanation.

 

[Mr Ares]

Only way taverenness would have worked is if they were in his presence.

Rand's ta'maral'ailen has been known to affect people outside his presence, across a city-wide area.

[ROB_88]

Only way taverenness would have worked is if they were in his presence.

Rand's ta'maral'ailen has been known to affect people outside his presence, across a city-wide area.

 

it's probably much bigger than just city wide. to some extent i think he even effect the land of Shara.

[Luckers]

I don't think so.  I seem to remember it specifically stating that Verin only "questioned" the Aes Sedai who didn't have warders.  She was too afraid that the Warder would be able to sense her shenanigans.

 

Actually, it seems more an issue of tiredness--Verin says she thinks she can deal with two more sisters that day, but not if either had warders, and she doubted she'd get a second chance.

 

She seems to imply in that that she could deal with those with warders, but it would take more effort--or more time--likely because her method of compulsion required that her victim be weak and off-balance, and Aes Sedai with warders can draw strength from their warders through the bond. She was waiting until time had worn down both the warder and the Aes Sedai before dealing with those who had warders.

 

weren't there other Aes Sedai that swore fealty though who did not undergo Verin's questioning?  I remember that Irgaine and Sashelle (I think?) had been stilled but after they were Healed they immediately swore fealty to Rand and those who were stilled were kept away from the other Aes Sedai, so Verin would not have been able to weave Compulsion on them.

 

some of the fealty must then be attributed to ta'veren I suppose.

 

No, she specifically notices the severed Aes Sedai, and at the end of the tPoD prologue asks for Irgaine to be brought to her. I would assume she continued after that.

 

Re-read the prologue--the reasons for her doing that are subtle--it seems she was curious and concerned over the Wise Ones flaunting the severed Aes Sedai in front of her--the move was likely to do with convincing the Wise Ones, than Iragaine or the others.

[mb]

Only way taverenness would have worked is if they were in his presence.

Rand's ta'maral'ailen has been known to affect people outside his presence, across a city-wide area.

I take that Rand was battling the Seachan when the first ones made the decision and was doing Traveling with Min when the rest made the decision.

 

it's probably much bigger than just city wide. to some extent i think he even effect the land of Shara.

To the land of Shara from Cairhien, that would be a bit of a stretch.  Maybe it would cover his Aiel camps around the city, but likely not to Shara.

 

[ROB_88]

if i remember it right, Shara is at civil war. isn't that cause of the Dragon?

[mb]

if i remember it right, Shara is at civil war. isn't that cause of the Dragon?

 

Many Randland nations have had war or civil war in Rand's time and Rand was nowhere near them when they started.

 

[ROB_88]

if i remember it right, Shara is at civil war. isn't that cause of the Dragon?

 

Many Randland nations have had war or civil war and Rand was nowhere near them when they started.

 

 

yes, but the one in Shara is the very first since the Breaking, so it's a little special

[mb]

if i remember it right, Shara is at civil war. isn't that cause of the Dragon?

Many Randland nations have had war or civil war and Rand was nowhere near them when they started.

yes, but the one in Shara is the very first since the Breaking, so it's a little special

Clarification:: In Rand's time.  I shall shortly edit the comment.

Edit::  Rand affects other nations, but not in as much detail as in a city when he is in it.

Shara's civil war I take to be from Rand being the Dragon Reborn, not from Rand's taverenness.

 

[Mr Ares]

Only way taverenness would have worked is if they were in his presence.

Rand's ta'maral'ailen has been known to affect people outside his presence, across a city-wide area.

I take that Rand was battling the Seachan when the first ones made the decision and was doing Traveling with Min when the rest made the decision.

Still a big difference between "his presence" and "a city wide area".

 

if i remember it right, Shara is at civil war. isn't that cause of the Dragon?

Figurehead rulers kidnapped is part of it, but the main part is that the Dragon has been Reborn. This need not be attributed to ta'veren, though. The mere coming of the Dragon is enough to cause disruption. No ta'veren required.

[Luckers]

Quote from: ROB_88 on March 03, 2009, 04:40:03 AM

it's probably much bigger than just city wide. to some extent i think he even effect the land of Shara.

To the land of Shara from Cairhien, that would be a bit of a stretch.  Maybe it would cover his Aiel camps around the city, but likely not to Shara.

 

Indeed we see in tSR the limits of Rand's ta'maral'ailen when Perrin seeks to escape it. City-limits.

 

His existence has influenced Sharan politics--they have the prophecies, they  know the significance, so of course rumours of his existence has caused unrest, especially given that their 'rulers' were kidnapped by Graendal. But this is not an effect of his ta'maral'ailen.

if i remember it right, Shara is at civil war. isn't that cause of the Dragon?

 

Many Randland nations have had war or civil war and Rand was nowhere near them when they started.

 

 

yes, but the one in Shara is the very first since the Breaking, so it's a little special

 

We actually know thats not true--the Sharans claim no unrest has hurt them at all--blanket, yet we know for a fact that the Trolloc Wars infested them, and that Hawkwings invasion was also significant (ports burning and the like).

 

Sharan claims at peace should not be confused with what actually happened. This is not the first state of unrest they've experienced. And the ones we know of probably arn't the only ones--indeed their fervence in stating this suggests the exact opposite.

[ROB_88]

Quote from: ROB_88 on March 03, 2009, 04:40:03 AM

it's probably much bigger than just city wide. to some extent i think he even effect the land of Shara.

To the land of Shara from Cairhien, that would be a bit of a stretch.  Maybe it would cover his Aiel camps around the city, but likely not to Shara.

 

Indeed we see in tSR the limits of Rand's ta'maral'ailen when Perrin seeks to escape it. City-limits.

 

His existence has influenced Sharan politics--they have the prophecies, they  know the significance, so of course rumours of his existence has caused unrest, especially given that their 'rulers' were kidnapped by Graendal. But this is not an effect of his ta'maral'ailen.

if i remember it right, Shara is at civil war. isn't that cause of the Dragon?

 

Many Randland nations have had war or civil war and Rand was nowhere near them when they started.

 

 

yes, but the one in Shara is the very first since the Breaking, so it's a little special

 

We actually know thats not true--the Sharans claim no unrest has hurt them at all--blanket, yet we know for a fact that the Trolloc Wars infested them, and that Hawkwings invasion was also significant (ports burning and the like).

 

Sharan claims at peace should not be confused with what actually happened. This is not the first state of unrest they've experienced. And the ones we know of probably arn't the only ones--indeed their fervence in stating this suggests the exact opposite.

 

okay, i'll back down on Ta'veren-ism causing such a wide effect. apparently i don't see any difference with stuff happening cause he's Ta'veren and stuff happening cause he's the Dragon.

but those wars in Shara, Trolloc and Hawkwing were all of outside influence. we have no record of Sharans VS Sharans before

[Luckers]

yes, but the only basis we have to say that Sharans have never fought sharans is that the Sharans claim that--but they have also claimed that they've never fought Trollocs, or invasion forces from the westlands...

 

My point was not that we knew they had, merely that we cannot trust that they havn't. They lie too readily about this.

 

Besides, given the highly stratified culture i see alot of parallels with China--they too like to present image of ongoing peace and prosperity, yet it isn't true. I suspect Sharans claims are mostly PR.