Burning Out

[Mr Ares]

I have a question - is this really a difference in editions? I mean, which one then is more correct?

There have been cases of corrections in later editions of books - Lan sharpening his Power-wrought sword being removed, for example. In such cases, later editions are canon. However, I would guess that that is not relevant in this case. The quote in question, originally posted by Nightstrike, quoted by metria31183, not found by General Cauthon is as follows:

"Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way." (LoC, To Heal Again).

This is perhaps not a direct quote from the book, but is a summary of imformation found there. Therefore, it is unsurprising that that passage was not found therein. The fact that Nightstrike's edition says the same thing but in diffrent words suggests this is the case.

[Dmitri]

Therefore, it is unsurprising that that passage was not found therein. The fact that Nightstrike's edition says the same thing but in diffrent words suggests this is the case.

 

I see now, thanks. Got to re-read that chapter one more time, though.  ;)

[Luckers]

Proof? I haven't found any place in the Books that states that. I agree with Luckers, Siuan is discussing her sosial standing in the Aes Sedai hierarchy when she is begging Nynaeve to try to heal her again.

 

I believe the quote Nightstrike already provided is sufficient.

 

"Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way." (LoC, To Heal Again).

 

I'm afraid that's in no editions I've found listings for. Do you have the publication information?

 

The (newer) editions say the very same thing. But in other words. Page 603 in my paperback (US):..."If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger.". (same chapter as before). That was what I got for being lazy. But they are still less than half their original strength. Probably more than 1/3 their original strength, since they didn't want to be Healed up to 1/3...

 

What older editions had your quote? There's a listing of alterations between additions and thats listed in none of them. My guess is that your source was probably paraphrased, though i'd be interested if there were publication details.

 

Furthermore, that is not saying the same thing--in that quote they are directly linking their comment to their standing--they say that currently they stand low, but if they could regain half of what they lost (as in half of the difference between their current strength and their original strength) then they would have much better standing.

 

And the fact remains that we know they stand above the Aes Sedai cut off point. Unless you place them near Forsaken level strength they cannot have lost more then half their original strength. They could not even have lost half.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Do you have the publication information?

No, couldn't find any. Maybe I haven't looked at the right places. It's the FAQ at wotmania (linked it in earlier post). It looks pretty straight forward in the text of the FAQ in question, they quote it as if it's taken directly out of the books as a quote. They have many other quotes there, too. And they are all word for word from the books (the ones I have bothered to look up, anyway).

 

Not that that has any impact on the matter at hand, anyway. They are still less than 1/2 their original strength. Where can one look up changes between editions? You said it wasn't on any list... That could be interesting to see what has altered and so forth...

 

 

 

Anyway, over to the matter at hand:

 

 

Compare the text out of WoT...

..., maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger

 

...with what you're saying, Luckers...

they say that currently they stand low, but if they could regain half of what they lost (as in half of the difference between their current strength and their original strength) then they would have much better standing.

 

"Take them up to half of what they were", meaning they are less than half of what they were. I don't know how you came up with "half of what they lost", but that is something entirely different.

 

 

 

And the fact remains that we know they stand above the Aes Sedai cut off point. Unless you place them near Forsaken level strength they cannot have lost more then half their original strength. They could not even have lost half.

Oh, but they not only could've, in fact, they DID lose more than half their original strength!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[metria31183]

Do you have the publication information?

No, couldn't find any. Maybe I haven't looked at the right places. It's the FAQ at wotmania (linked it in earlier post). It looks pretty straight forward in the text of the FAQ in question, they quote it as if it's taken directly out of the books as a quote. They have many other quotes there, too. And they are all word for word from the books (the ones I have bothered to look up, anyway).

 

Not that that has any impact on the matter at hand, anyway. They are still less than 1/2 their original strength. Where can one look up changes between editions? You said it wasn't on any list... That could be interesting to see what has altered and so forth...

 

 

 

Anyway, over to the matter at hand:

 

 

Compare the text out of WoT...

..., maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger

 

...with what you're saying, Luckers...

they say that currently they stand low, but if they could regain half of what they lost (as in half of the difference between their current strength and their original strength) then they would have much better standing.

 

"Take them up to half of what they were", meaning they are less than half of what they were. I don't know how you came up with "half of what they lost", but that is something entirely different.

 

 

 

And the fact remains that we know they stand above the Aes Sedai cut off point. Unless you place them near Forsaken level strength they cannot have lost more then half their original strength. They could not even have lost half.

Oh, but they not only could've, in fact, they DID lose more than half their original strength!

 

 

I've had a thought.  The exact quote from RJ's blog regarding percentage that could test for the shall is:

Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bellcurve.  I’ll leave the maths to you for an idle moment.  The question doesn’t really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bellcurve.  Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%.

 

To say something is percantage of a bell curve is bascially standard deviation.  It doesn't mean the same thing as a percentage of the entire population.  Here http://www.robertniles.com/stats/stdev.shtml is a good example of standard deviation illustrated and explained on a graph.  As it the graph shows, the lowest and highest are not included.  So based on that Siuan and Leane wouldn't have to have been Forsaken level strength to loose half and still be above the bar for testing for the shawl.  Plus, it's I'm not sure that RJ's answer wasn't limited to just 3rd age channellers.  If he was talking about the bell curve for 3rd agers it makes even more sense.  At least to me.  But it has been a while since I took Statistics.

[MikeRiley]

This is from Lord of Chaos, chapter 30 To Heal Again.

 

Siuan twisted around to face her, but she included Nynaeve as well. "I went

by Logain's house. Six sisters are maintaining his shield, the same as when he was

captured. He tried to break free when he found out we knew he had been Healed,

and they said if only five had been holding the shield, he might have. So he's as

strong as he ever was, or close enough to make no difference. I'm not. Neither is

Siuan. I want you to try again, Nynaeve."

    "I knew it!" Nynaeve flung her spoon down on the tray. "I knew you had some

reason for this! Well, I'm too tired to channel, and it wouldn't matter if I wasn't.

You can't Heal what has been Healed. You get out of here, and take your vile-

tasting soup with you!" Less than half the vile-tasting soup remained, and it was a

big bowl.

    "I know it won't work!" Siuan snapped back. "This morning I knew stilling

couldn't be Healed!"

    "A moment, Siuan," Leane said. "Nynaeve, do you realize what we are risking,

coming here together? This isn't a room in an alley with your archer friend

standing guard; there are women all through this house, with eyes to see and

tongues to talk. If it is found out that Siuan and I have been playing a game with

everybody - even ten years from now - well, suffice to say, Aes Sedai can be

given penance, and we would very likely still be on a farm hoeing cabbages after

our hair turns white. We came because of what you did for us, to make a

fresh start."

    "Why didn't you go to one of the Yellows?" Elayne asked. "Most of them

must know as much about it as Nynaeve by now." Nynaeve glared indignantly

around the spoon. Vile-tasting?

    Siuan and Leane exchanged looks, and at last Siuan said reluctantly, "If we go

to a sister, everybody knows, soon or late. If Nynaeve does it, maybe anybody who

managed to weigh us today will think they were mistaken. Supposedly, all sisters

are equal, and there have been Amyrlins who barely managed to channel enough

to earn the shawl, but Amyrlins and the heads of Ajahs aside, by custom, if

another is stronger in the Power than you, you're expected to give way to her."

    "I don't understand," Elayne said. She was getting quite a lesson out of this;

the hierarchy made sense, but she supposed it was one of those things you did not

learn until you actually were Aes Sedai. One way or another, she had picked up

enough hints to suspect that in many ways your education only began when you

put on the shawl. "If Nynaeve can Heal you again, then you're stronger."

    Leane shook her head. "No one has ever been Healed from stilling before.

Maybe the others will see it, say like being wilders. That puts you a little lower

than your strength. Maybe having been weaker will count something. If Nynaeve

couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds

what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here

would be as strong, and a good many stronger." Elayne stared, more confused than

before. Nynaeve looked as if she had been hit between the eyes.

    "Everything goes into it," Siuan explained. "Who learned fastest, who spent

the least time as novice and Accepted. There are all sorts of shadings. You can't

say precisely how strong anyone is. Two women might seem to be the same

strength; maybe they are and maybe not, but the only way to say for certain would

be a duel, and teh Light be blessed, we're above that. Unless Nynaeve returns us

to our full strength, we run the risk of standing fairly low."

    Leane took it up again. "The hierarchy isn't supposed to rule anything except

everyday life, but it does. Advice from somebody with higher standing is given

more weight than from somebody with lower. It did not matter while we were

stilled. We had no standing at all they weighed what we said on merit alone. It

will not be that way now."

 

"If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger."

 

What this tells us, is that they are at less than half the strength they had when they could last channel. "Take us to half" is not saying "give us another half of what we lost". It says "On a scale of 1-10 I'm lower than a 5, take me to 5." She says if Nynaeve could take her to half or two-thirds, still most there would be as strong or stronger, so this is not in terms of forsaken strength. She is probably low enough to barely attain the shawl herself, right now. Having two-thirds of her old strength she would still be equal to or less than many in the camp.

 

If you swung your hammer down on that circus attraction I don't recall the name of, and the weight goes halfway up to the bell, then you think if you tried again you could take it two-thirds of the way instead, you don't mean two-thirds of what was left between the weight and the bell, you mean two-thirds of the way up from the bottom. This is what they're talking about.

 

One more thing, regarding it being possible somebody healed Lanfear better than Nynaeve healed Siuan.. After Nynaeve demonstrates the weave on Siuane and Leane, the Yellows that were crowded around her are all discussing possible new weaves that might work better. We also know there are different ways to do the same thing, some more efficient. If you remember Aviendha's first experience with Traveling, it took far less power than she needs with the new weave that Elayne uses.

[Luckers]

No, couldn't find any. Maybe I haven't looked at the right places. It's the FAQ at wotmania (linked it in earlier post). It looks pretty straight forward in the text of the FAQ in question, they quote it as if it's taken directly out of the books as a quote. They have many other quotes there, too. And they are all word for word from the books (the ones I have bothered to look up, anyway).

 

Not that that has any impact on the matter at hand, anyway. They are still less than 1/2 their original strength. Where can one look up changes between editions? You said it wasn't on any list... That could be interesting to see what has altered and so forth...

 

People make mistakes, even people listed on websites. My guess is its paraphrased--it'd have to be, or it'd be documented. That's a massive change in wording, and with no real purpose. RJ only changes things when its proven wrong elsewhere. Even if he later wanted to heal Cyndane, and realised that quote suggested a much greater decline in Siuan and Leane i doubt he'd change it. He's not the type to adept his book to fit a change of idea later on, only to stop contradictions--and my copy of LoC predates the appearence of Cyndane, and as such wouldn't have been adapted for my purpose.

 

It speaks to my argument, but i just don't see him doing that. I think it was more likely paraphrased. Or possibly the result of someone translating from another language.

 

This contains a number of them though listed amongst other notations. http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.7_generalities/2.7.6_missteps.html

 

It's sad, there was a much better listing back in the day, but it seems to have vanished into the aether.

 

Other than that just look through RJ's interviews, he mentions correction points several times.

 

"Take them up to half of what they were", meaning they are less than half of what they were. I don't know how you came up with "half of what they lost", but that is something entirely different.

 

It's simple where I came up with that--'half of what they were' in comparison to what they are now. I rephrased it as half of what they lost to clarrify what i was trying to suggest to you.

 

Quote

And the fact remains that we know they stand above the Aes Sedai cut off point. Unless you place them near Forsaken level strength they cannot have lost more then half their original strength. They could not even have lost half.

Oh, but they not only could've, in fact, they DID lose more than half their original strength!

 

You do realise that is like the worst argument ever?

 

To say something is percantage of a bell curve is bascially standard deviation.  It doesn't mean the same thing as a percentage of the entire population.  Here http://www.robertniles.com/stats/stdev.shtml is a good example of standard deviation illustrated and explained on a graph.  As it the graph shows, the lowest and highest are not included.  So based on that Siuan and Leane wouldn't have to have been Forsaken level strength to loose half and still be above the bar for testing for the shawl.  Plus, it's I'm not sure that RJ's answer wasn't limited to just 3rd age channellers.  If he was talking about the bell curve for 3rd agers it makes even more sense.  At least to me.  But it has been a while since I took Statistics.

 

Yet he also stated that we could work out the math on our own, for there to be outlyers the distribution would not be exact and we'd need to know the standard deviation, mean and so forth to work out anything. We don't have that infomation, so it needs to be an exact deviation.

 

What this tells us, is that they are at less than half the strength they had when they could last channel. "Take us to half" is not saying "give us another half of what we lost". It says "On a scale of 1-10 I'm lower than a 5, take me to 5." She says if Nynaeve could take her to half or two-thirds, still most there would be as strong or stronger, so this is not in terms of forsaken strength. She is probably low enough to barely attain the shawl herself, right now. Having two-thirds of her old strength she would still be equal to or less than many in the camp.

 

If you swung your hammer down on that circus attraction I don't recall the name of, and the weight goes halfway up to the bell, then you think if you tried again you could take it two-thirds of the way instead, you don't mean two-thirds of what was left between the weight and the bell, you mean two-thirds of the way up from the bottom. This is what they're talking about.

 

After you swing the hammer, and the weight goes up halfway, it drops back to the ground. Thats why this doesn't work--Siuan and Leane did not drop back to the ground, they got half way and stayed there. On that case if you think if you tried again you could take it two thirds of the way you wouldn't mean two-thirds of the way from the bottom--indeed, you already made a blow that moved you half, you'd think you could get the other half with a second blow.

 

But the fact remains that if the cut off point is at 37.5 and Siuan currently stands a few steps above that, lets say 40 for evenness, then her original strength would have been 85 if she lost more than half her strength. That's forsaken level strength.

 

Look, you seem to be catching on the degree to which Siuan and Leane lost social standing--there comments re:their new strength and that of the sisters in Salidar, and the excess to which they speak of their loss there. But consider the reality. At best the Aes Sedai strength range covers maybe 40% of the female strength range. That means that even a slight decline in strength results a dramatic social decline--1:4 if that.

 

That whole quote is coloured by that dramatic decline in social standing. Siuan dropped from the top, to just above the bottom, but that does not require a great loss of strength.

 

One more thing, regarding it being possible somebody healed Lanfear better than Nynaeve healed Siuan.. After Nynaeve demonstrates the weave on Siuane and Leane, the Yellows that were crowded around her are all discussing possible new weaves that might work better. We also know there are different ways to do the same thing, some more efficient. If you remember Aviendha's first experience with Traveling, it took far less power than she needs with the new weave that Elayne uses.

 

They were speaking of using the fire and earth in healing for other purposes, such as heart problems and the like. Nothing about perfecting the weave. Aviendha's difficulty in using Egwene's method of Travelling comes from the second-learned weave effect, not because her original weave was more energy effective.

[MikeRiley]

No.. "half of what we were", the weight drops back down. If you lose 100 pennies and get 30 back but you want to look again hoping for at least half of what you had, you want at least 50, not 70. They only consider their new strength in as a reason to ask Nynaeve to try again due to their low social standing.

[metria31183]

Yet he also stated that we could work out the math on our own, for there to be outlyers the distribution would not be exact and we'd need to know the standard deviation, mean and so forth to work out anything. We don't have that infomation, so it needs to be an exact deviation.

 

RJ is still not talking about 62.5% of all female channellers.  62.5% of the bellcurve =/= 62.5% of the entire set.  I still don't think he was including AoL channellers in that figure anyway.

 

But the fact remains that if the cut off point is at 37.5 and Siuan currently stands a few steps above that, lets say 40 for evenness, then her original strength would have been 85 if she lost more than half her strength. That's forsaken level strength.

 

You've obviously applied some kind of scaling system to come up with this, but I think your scale is off,  Could you please either explain your scaling system or link me to where you have explained it fully in the past?

[Roxinos]

Leane shook her head. "No one has ever been Healed from stilling before. Maybe the others will see it, say like being wilders. That puts you a little lower than your strength. ..."

 

It seems that a big deal of the problem is the word "strong" and "strength." Leane and Siuan seem to go back and forth between two meanings of the word. One meaning standing and the other meaning how much of saidar you can hold. Since this whole passage that we've been quoting from and referencing is quite unclear, I highly doubt we'll come to any sort of understanding.

[Nightstrike]

LoC, To Heal Again:

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger

If they were Healed up to half of what they were, that would be better than now. But still most there would be as strong and a good many stronger. Lets pretend that Siuan used to be 90 in strength. Then she got stilled. A little later she got Healed. Lets pretend that her weaker self is 40 in strength. If she got up to half of what she were, she would become 45. Still most there would be as strong, and a good many stronger.

 

Siuan, neither the weaker nor the stronger, has ever been at 40 in strength.

[Nightstrike]

Yet he also stated that we could work out the math on our own, for there to be outlyers the distribution would not be exact and we'd need to know the standard deviation, mean and so forth to work out anything. We don't have that infomation, so it needs to be an exact deviation.

You've been misinterpreting RJ's blog entry. I've told you before. We do need to know mean, variance and skew. We've never been given anything like that.

 

 

 

 

I'll show you more reasons for why these curves can't be symmetric about the mean. Read the bold marked parts in particular.

 

RJ's blog:

For Gyrehead, Foretelling is not related to strength.  The weakest possible channeler could Foretell as strongly as Elaida or Nicola, or perhaps even more so, depending entirely on the strength of his or her Talent for Foretelling.  The three Red Sitters were sent into exile in 985 NE under Marith Jaen.  Yes, Morgase has slowed, and that is exactly why there is so much emphasis on her looking only ten years older than Perrin when she has children the ages of Elayne and Gawyn.  Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bellcurve.  I’ll leave the maths to you for an idle moment.  The question doesn’t really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bellcurve.  Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%.  Again, the maths are all yours.  Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels.  Remember to integrate this with what I’ve said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

 

 

The weakest man and the weakest woman is roughly the same strength. Add to that the fact that 62.5 % of the women are above the same strength as 65.4% of all the men are above. And there are several levels of male strength above the women's strength. No matter whether the 21 level list is for only women , or for men&women, these curves can't be symmetric about the mean.

 

Siuan being less than 1/2 is enough proof in itself, so there's really no need for me to prove the same thing twice. But I did, anyway. 

 

 

 

[benr]

Luckers, it just seems to me that your logic is twisted and tortured, where you usually are very straightforward, with very literal interpretations of what RJ says.  In this case, it requires re-definitions and interpretations of the text to arrive at your conclusions.  Is that impossible?  Of course not.  But you have argued against this same way of thinking time and time again.