White Tower/General Aes Sedai stupidity

[Luckers]

Yes, it's true that the Aes Sedai seem to be learning--slowly--that the shawl does not make them more than human. And it's true that when RJ has an Aes Sedai learn this, she usually is very capable--Moiraine, Verin, Cadsuane, so on.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Mmm, i agree most seem to die--though it is correct that we don't know for sure... As for Logain and Owyn... neither are particularily good examples. Logain was kept in a cage, good enough, and Owyn lost everything he knew. Their lives predisposed the worst to their depression. Thats the Aes Sedai's fault more than anything, their attitude toward male channelers is dispicable.

I agree with your opening line, I think it's the only opinion supported by any evidence.

 

However, I'd argue that Logain is a good example.

 

He was a False Dragon, he'd also lost everything. He was also released reasonably soon after capture and, during his trip to Salidar, had ample time and opportunity to off himself or wither away.

 

However, despite all that, and before there was hope of a cure, he managed to regain his desire to live.

 

I'd say that because Logain fell the furthest (in terms of male channelers) that he would be pretty likely to die. Yet he didn't.

But thats more or less what your quote shows--if an effort is made to help these people, they live longer. And even if it is not forever--its still something.

What about the women?

 

Setalle Anan wasn't "helped" beyond starting a new life and finding a husband.

 

Couldn't simply reentering society, albeit successfully, be enough for some people to survive? Granted, maybe not all survive, but the answer is that we don't know how many enter societies and blend in. The Aes Sedai, frankly, don't care to know, and the women themselves aren't going to advertise who or what they are.

 

As for the men, if they can find people willing to help, I think survival rates might well be reasonable. Why? Because Logain survived despite the fact that the Aes Sedai didn't really want him. He was aware that Suian and co wanted him around to disgrace the Reds.

 

Perhaps if there were people who wanted to help out of altruism then we could expect more to live. Genuine concern, and a more "human" approach than most Aes Sedai are capable of might well reap benefits.

Even thats not proof--the social guilt these men must feel...... Same goes with the disdain given to Aes Sedai who get burned out, as if they are suddenly not the same person.

True, societal guilt could be enormous.

 

Anways, at the best we can make an edumacated guess.

[AcuWill]

The one thing that everyone overlooks regarding Logain and Siuan/Leanne is that they are essential weaves in the pattern currently and have all been or will be (which regarding what we know about the patttern might be the same) highly influenced by ta'veran.  They could not kill themselves if they wanted too.  Therefore, using them as a crux to the argument that stilling/gentling is a fate note worse than death is inaccurate.  They very likely could not kill themselves if they wanted to.  (Which Logain very clearly did.)

[benr]

Mmm, i agree most seem to die--though it is correct that we don't know for sure... As for Logain and Owyn... neither are particularily good examples. Logain was kept in a cage, good enough, and Owyn lost everything he knew. Their lives predisposed the worst to their depression. Thats the Aes Sedai's fault more than anything, their attitude toward male channelers is dispicable.

 

 

In addition, I think Owyn was very far gone in madness, and had become a true danger.  The development of madness stops at the gentling, but it doesn't get better, and in such a state the sink into irreversible clinical depression would seem inevitable.  Thom has a blind spot here; while understandable, his attitude towards the AS over Owyn is truly because of his relationship to Owyn, not the particulars of this case.  Owyn's fate was sealed; perhaps in his case a death sentence would have been more humane.  Each case is different, though; before the cleansing healing Owyn would have been a mistake.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

The one thing that everyone overlooks regarding Logain and Siuan/Leanne is that they are essential weaves in the pattern currently and have all been or will be (which regarding what we know about the patttern might be the same) highly influenced by ta'veran.  They could not kill themselves if they wanted too.  Therefore, using them as a crux to the argument that stilling/gentling is a fate note worse than death is inaccurate.  They very likely could not kill themselves if they wanted to.  (Which Logain very clearly did.)

I don't buy that.

 

If people who are crucial to essential to the Pattern can't die ... then what's the point of the books?

 

Why have the 3 ta'veren been concerned with dying? Because they can die.

 

If they can be killed, then they can die, by someone else's hand, or by their own.

In addition, I think Owyn was very far gone in madness, and had become a true danger.  The development of madness stops at the gentling, but it doesn't get better, and in such a state the sink into irreversible clinical depression would seem inevitable.

That makes sense.

 

Logain certainly seems sane.

[Taladine]

The biggest disappointment that I have with the Aes Sedai is that they are built up to be this great force in the first couple of books, and then they basically come crashing to the ground.

 

Seriously, how many Aes Sedai are actually competent?  We had/have Moiraine, I think Verin is, and Cadsuane.  From there it basically seems to go downhill when it comes to Aes Sedai and competence.  I am speaking strictly from a sense of regular Tower trained folks, not Egwene, Elayne, or Nynaeve.

 

They have a long way to go to get their image back in my opinion.

[CUBAREY]

As for the men, if they can find people willing to help, I think survival rates might well be reasonable. Why? Because Logain survived despite the fact that the Aes Sedai didn't really want him. He was aware that Suian and co wanted him around to disgrace the Reds.

 

Perhaps if there were people who wanted to help out of altruism then we could expect more to live. Genuine concern, and a more "human" approach than most Aes Sedai are capable of might well reap benefits.

 

I think of gentled men and burned out women as recovering heroin addicts. Even if they get past the physical addiction the physcological lose of the power (or drug) leads to a  great depression which leads them to lose the will to live. If they had a support system, people who cared about them (like in Stel Anan's case) they could learn to live with there lose and find that they had other reasons to live. However, no gentled man would never likely have such a support system as the stigma of what he was would likely drive most people who knew what he had been away. The burned out sisters on the other hand would have a built in support system except that their sisters can not bear to be reminded of the fate that awaits them if they ever drew to much of the power.

[Underscore]

I think of gentled men and burned out women as recovering heroin addicts. Even if they get past the physical addiction the physcological lose of the power (or drug) leads to a  great depression which leads them to lose the will to live. If they had a support system, people who cared about them (like in Stel Anan's case) they could learn to live with there lose and find that they had other reasons to live. However, no gentled man would never likely have such a support system as the stigma of what he was would likely drive most people who knew what he had been away. The burned out sisters on the other hand would have a built in support system except that their sisters can not bear to be reminded of the fate that awaits them if they ever drew to much of the power.

 

How many people are repulsed by Heroin addicts?

Even though quite a few (the majority) are repulsed there is a minority willing to help them.

 

The same should apply to Aes Sedai shouldn't it? A few should be willing to help the gentled men and stilled woman to recover. But from the books this isn't the case, the men are kept at the tower until they kill themselves,the burned out woman are forced to take a husband and leave the tower, and the stilled ones are forced to work in the tower as kitchen maids and the like.

 

This suggests that the Aes Sedai as a society are morally inept to deal with the situation and from that it can be drawn that they have none of the moral superiority that they claim.

[Mr Ares]

The one thing that everyone overlooks regarding Logain and Siuan/Leanne is that they are essential weaves in the pattern currently and have all been or will be (which regarding what we know about the patttern might be the same) highly influenced by ta'veran.

The influence of ta'veren is not universal. Much of the time they were out of range, and thus would not have been affected. Their actions were thus not directly influenced by it. Also, people have been known to die around ta'veren.

They could not kill themselves if they wanted too.

Yes, they could.

Therefore, using them as a crux to the argument that stilling/gentling is a fate note worse than death is inaccurate.

Whether or not they could off themselves is not the point - neither Siuan nor Leane was suicidal, and Logain had ups and downs (shortly before Salidar, Min notes his decline. Since then, he has made a full recovery), therefore it is not really supported that it is a fate worse than death. True, it is unpleasant. True, many die, or commit suicide. But it is not an automatic sentence to depression and death. There are other factors involved. Stigma attached to male channelers, losing all standing amongst AS, etc.

[CUBAREY]

Even though quite a few (the majority) are repulsed there is a minority willing to help them.

 

The same should apply to Aes Sedai shouldn't it?

 

You disregard the fact that AS are themselves addicted to the power and any reminder that they could accidentally lose the ability to get their "fix" would lead them to abandoned their sisters that burned out. Men who have been gentled and women that have been stilled are considered criminals who have transgressed the greatest Taboos of the society thus that they are shunned by the AS is not surprising. While I agree that AS are not the model of morality their treatment of those that have lost the ability to draw the power while somewhat problematic is not a good example of how they are morally unfit.

 

But it is not an automatic sentence to depression and death.

 

While I generally agree with your argument I do point out that the immediate result of slosing the ability to channel is to become depressed. That at least some people can find a reason to live that will get them out of their depression does not mean that such people do not automaticly go into a depression when the are caught off from the source.

 

 

[MikeRiley]

Logain couldn't have died if he wanted to simply because the Aes Sedai wouldn't give him the chance. He was under constant surveillance to make sure he didn't kill himself. That changed after he escaped the tower, but he was given a reason to stick around a while longer.

[Mr Ares]

But it is not an automatic sentence to depression and death.

 

While I generally agree with your argument I do point out that the immediate result of slosing the ability to channel is to become depressed.

Correction: It is not an automatic sentence to life-long depression.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on February 19, 2009, 07:52:54 AM

Mmm, i agree most seem to die--though it is correct that we don't know for sure... As for Logain and Owyn... neither are particularily good examples. Logain was kept in a cage, good enough, and Owyn lost everything he knew. Their lives predisposed the worst to their depression. Thats the Aes Sedai's fault more than anything, their attitude toward male channelers is dispicable.

 

I agree with your opening line, I think it's the only opinion supported by any evidence.

 

However, I'd argue that Logain is a good example.

 

He was a False Dragon, he'd also lost everything. He was also released reasonably soon after capture and, during his trip to Salidar, had ample time and opportunity to off himself or wither away.

 

However, despite all that, and before there was hope of a cure, he managed to regain his desire to live.

 

I'd say that because Logain fell the furthest (in terms of male channelers) that he would be pretty likely to die. Yet he didn't.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear--I was responding to the idea that it would be better to kill severed channelers, then let them suffer the depression caused by losing the ability. I was trying to point out that the current attitude toward channelers is very detrimental to those that are severed. By which I mean that yes, not being able to touch the source, which is so very much a drug, the individuals that are severed from it suffer a natural depression--but that that is not the only influence.

 

My point was that neither Logain nor Owyn--nor Suian or any of the others serve as good examples of what that natural depression results in. They are not only suffering that depression, they are also suffering from the societal disdain--for men, as breakers of the world and bla bla bla. For women as no longer Aes Sedai, losing everything that defined them.

 

These people are already pre-disposed to depression, thus they cannot be used to show that severed people should be killed. Remove that element and the survival rate would probably be much greater.

 

As for your point Thin Inn Keeper, I agree completely, that Logain who should be the most hopeless survived should show this point utterly.

 

What about the women?

 

Setalle Anan wasn't "helped" beyond starting a new life and finding a husband.

 

Couldn't simply reentering society, albeit successfully, be enough for some people to survive? Granted, maybe not all survive, but the answer is that we don't know how many enter societies and blend in. The Aes Sedai, frankly, don't care to know, and the women themselves aren't going to advertise who or what they are.

 

As for the men, if they can find people willing to help, I think survival rates might well be reasonable. Why? Because Logain survived despite the fact that the Aes Sedai didn't really want him. He was aware that Suian and co wanted him around to disgrace the Reds.

 

Perhaps if there were people who wanted to help out of altruism then we could expect more to live. Genuine concern, and a more "human" approach than most Aes Sedai are capable of might well reap benefits.

 

Agreed. Completely--indeed, Setelle wasn't even 'helped' to find a new life or husband. She was abandoned. The only reason she survived was that her husband found her starving on the streets and took her in. That shows the effect an actual care system could achieve.

 

Seriously, how many Aes Sedai are actually competent?  We had/have Moiraine, I think Verin is, and Cadsuane.  From there it basically seems to go downhill when it comes to Aes Sedai and competence.  I am speaking strictly from a sense of regular Tower trained folks, not Egwene, Elayne, or Nynaeve.

 

There are others, Pevara, Seaine, Tarna, Doesine--im even fairly impressed with Romanda.

 

They have a lot of blind points, but they can be very effective.

 

 

 

[Osan`gar]

i don't think they are dense i think they are [glow=red,2,300]VERY[/glow] arogant. they are so used to being defered to even when they are wrong that they have an automatic presumption that what ever they decide is true and correct. translation is they are alway right because everyone else is dumber than a bag of hammers. if you pay attention you start to see some of this show up with any one who can channel. i dont think it's the power that breeds the arrognce however i think it is the defference of others.

[Nightstrike]

Sorry, I wasn't clear--I was responding to the idea that it would be better to kill severed channelers, then let them suffer the depression caused by losing the ability.

I thought that reply was as a response to my post (?). I didn't say that it was better to kill severed channelers. I was responding, after having read that we don't know if the stilled/gentled die. And that, if so, we don't know if it's common or not.

 

I was thinking about what usually happened to men that were gentled. I came to think about Cadsuane. So I searched the WoT Encyclopaedia (  http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/  ).

 

 

 

ACoS,Ch18 - Even though she is Green Ajah she has faced more men who can channel than any four Reds.

ACoS,Ch19 - Cadsuane helped capture both Logain and Taim. Logain nearly in her backyard (Ghealdan) was what brought her out of retirement.

ACoS,Ch19 - It has been over 270 years since she took on a task she could not accomplish.

ACoS,Ch33 - Rand has nightmares about Cadsuane telling him about hearing voices.

ACoS,Ch33 - Rand tells Min he is afraid Cadsuane is right about him being mad. Min asks who Cadsuane is.

ACoS,Ch36 - Cadsuane likes Amys and wants to meet Sorilea.

ACoS,Ch41 - Min has a viewing that Cadsuane will teach Rand and the Asha'man something they need to know.

ACoS,Glossary - Men she brings to the White Tower to tend to live markedly longer after being gentled than those brought by other sisters.

 

Owyn was gentled, and he died young. Logain was falling apart (probably depression or something else of sinister psychological nature). We don't know that much about those three that Rand burned out. They might have become married to some aiel men, if the Wise Ones had got their way. 

 

So, we don't have exact numbers. But I'd guess that a quite big fraction dies, at least within a few years. I don't know what is worst - being gentled/stilled or being burnt out. My bet is that being gentled/stilled is much worse. Still feeling the Source...

 

Anyway, killing people is BAD, BAD, BAD business. Should be avoided. Aes Sedai old ways of gentling are much more humane than the Sea Folk way of killing them. I'm assuming they knew how, but can't remember if they did or not (if we've even been told about that?).

 

 

[Luckers]

It was and it wasn't. I was responding to the previously raised concept that it would be better to kill severed channelers, in reference to your specific examples.

 

I responded to specific comments of yours, then focussed on your examples of Owyn and Logain to further express my point about the current societal impression influencing the depression of those who are severed. Thus, neither Owyn nor Logain were good examples of what naturally happened to severed channelers. Sorry if that was confusing to you.

[Nightstrike]

It was and it wasn't. I was responding to the previously raised concept that it would be better to kill severed channelers, in reference to your specific examples.

Sorry, then. I thought it was all about me (am I that egocentric? Shocking!).

 

I responded to specific comments of yours, then focussed on your examples of Owyn and Logain to further express my point about the current societal impression influencing the depression of those who are severed. Thus, neither Owyn nor Logain were good examples of what naturally happened to severed channelers. Sorry if that was confusing to you.

I think Owyn and Logain are both good examples of what naturally happened to severed channelers.

[Luckers]

 

Quote

I responded to specific comments of yours, then focussed on your examples of Owyn and Logain to further express my point about the current societal impression influencing the depression of those who are severed. Thus, neither Owyn nor Logain were good examples of what naturally happened to severed channelers. Sorry if that was confusing to you.

 

I think Owyn and Logain are both good examples of what naturally happened to severed channelers.

 

That's the point I'm making--they arn't. They are good examples of what currently happens to severed channelers, but that isn't natural. That isn't a result of the loss of channeling alone, it is also influenced by the societal disdain present--whether it being the disgust and fear for male channelers, or the disdain for ex-Aes Sedai, and the loss of everything that defined them.

 

My point is that whilst the loss of the ability to channel causes a despondency and depression, current opinions about its effects are influenced by the extreme effect that the social opinion has on the emotional health of those that are severed.

 

In that Owyn and Logain are terrible examples. Owyn, deprived of everything that maters, suffering the fear of those who were his friends, and Logain, effectively locked in a cage. Neither were in a position to deal with the depression that results from the loss of the ability. If people were accepting, willing to help, willing to sympathise, then i suspect that the death-rate of severed channelers would be much lower.

[Nightstrike]

Knowing which factor is the most important one is very, very difficult. Different people have different will power, different situations cause different responses and different people have different psyches (predisposed by upbringing, etc, as well as other mental weaknesses).

 

I don't know if they would've changed their behavior toward those cuf off from the Source. But it seems that in the society they lived in, a big fraction of the severed died (both men and women). At least that's the only conclusion we can draw that has any support by the books (of course, people can always argue that they were mistaken - but I don't think we've got any reason to suspect that they were). Anything else would be pure speculation.

[Luckers]

We arn't talking about factors for individuals, we are speaking of societal push. Knowing which factor drove which individual over the edge is irrelevant--what matters is to remove as many detrimental factors as possible.

 

The point is, dealing with the loss of the ability to channel is not going to be easy. Adding societal pressure makes it worse.

 

As for the rest... Nightstrike, in the past three posts you've re-asked questions i adressed in the initial post--so im confused. I agree the majority seem to die, that was my preface--before proceeding with my speculation.

 

So yes I'm a little confused--why are you pointing out now that its speculation? Why did you re-raise the majority dying? The whole point of this discussions is based on those things. This is speculation about the issue of majority dying, and why the assumption that the majority die naturally isn't accurate.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

As for the rest... Nightstrike, in the past three posts you've re-asked questions i adressed in the initial post--so im confused. I agree the majority seem to die, that was my preface--before proceeding with my speculation.

Sorry about pointing out the already mentioned, then (must have missed it).

 

So yes I'm a little confused--why are you pointing out now that its speculation? Why did you re-raise the majority dying? The whole point of this discussions is based on those things. This is speculation about the issue of majority dying, and why the assumption that the majority die naturally isn't accurate.

Speculation can be fun. I just disagree with the conclusion that a big fraction (or maybe even the majority) dies as a direct consequence of them being mistreated. I might be wrong, and you might be right - I admit. But there's a lot of unknowns. I don't even know if comparing the situation with drug addicts would be accurate (?). How addictive is the One Power? Probably very addictive, but in comparison - who knows? The people and the general circumstances are different. I don't think RJ has answered any questions about this very subject, has he?

[magnutz]

So, the White Tower and the Aes Sedai arent stupid, just arrogant and ignorant. In some places those two are synonyms to stupidity. ;)

 

The Power itself turns the heads of those who wield it. That sets them apart. Being part of a time honored institution explains a bit. The infighting between factions within the Tower creates stupid people. One faction denies that there is a Black Ajah and another denies the fact that there is a people called Seanchan - a people who uses Aes Sedai as pets and weapons. Just like some people in real life dedies the holocaust during ww2 and so on. That does hit some people as being stupid.

 

Sometimes I think RJ made some Aes Sedai stupid just to get his story to where it needed to go. For instance, in KoD when Elayne decides to arrest the Black Ajah sisters. That idea was very not smart and carried through by one of the smarter Aes Sedai in Randland. It was intentionally stupid. It had to happen to get Elayne into a position (outside the city gates with a considerably large force) where she could attack the hostile forces from behind to capture those in need of capturing and thus winning the race for the Lion Throne. The stupidity in this case could be explained by Elayne's pregnancy but I don't buy it. ;)

 

So, sometimes I believe that stupid is what stupid does. Sometimes because the stupid is stupid as part of the story or because the story needs a normally smart person to act stupid in order for the story to move forward. ;)

[Thor]

no logain could not have killed himself even if he wanted to.

 

he ran into min, min told him of her viewings of glory, which originated from the pattern, which gave logain a belief, a belief to keep living.

 

so the pattern stopped logain from killing himself, he couldn't have committed suicide.

[Luckers]

Speculation can be fun. I just disagree with the conclusion that a big fraction (or maybe even the majority) dies as a direct consequence of them being mistreated. I might be wrong, and you might be right - I admit. But there's a lot of unknowns. I don't even know if comparing the situation with drug addicts would be accurate (?). How addictive is the One Power? Probably very addictive, but in comparison - who knows? The people and the general circumstances are different. I don't think RJ has answered any questions about this very subject, has he?

 

 

I agree completely about the blurriness of the issue. We do not have neouh information to say one way or another. I never suggested otherwise. The point is though that of those able to attain a sense of personal meaning following being severed have survived. Martine, with her husband. Siuan and Leane with their mission--Logain seems proof, at the edge of givig up and dying he is revitalized by the idea of vengence against the Red.

 

Even the Aes Sedai admit this, with their talk of finding husbands.

 

The issue may be blurry, but it is clear--and directly stated--that if the severed individuals are occupied with something that fulfils their life then they stad a better chance.

 

As such the opposite is true. Aes Sedai who are severed lose everythig. Teir Ajah, thier sense of self--everything they are. Other Aes Sedai even make a point of making sure they know this. Despite that it was their intelligence, their knowledge and their personal strength that gained them the shawl, the loss of the simple ability to channel robs them of everything they are.

 

And men? I'm gay, i know something of what it is like to discover an innate aspect of yourself is something you've been born and trained to hate. For me, that covered no more than my sexual habits--but imagine for a man who can channel--doomed to go mad and cause terrible destruction. Now, the Aes Sedai could have been sympathetic--spoke to the people, acknowledging that this was a terrible infliction, and that the cure was not great, but nessasary. Of course men would still have resisted--but surviving afterward?

 

Instead Aes Sedai speak of men's sin, men's pride. It's disgusting. Instead of aiding victims of a battle fought three thousand years prior, a battle that saved humankind from total defeat and allowed them time to fight again the Aes Sedai blamed these men--despite their own failures at that time.

 

You want to tell me that the current societal opinion towards channelers does not influence those severed? Whatever natural disposition towards depression created by the severing--we know as a fact that the mental strength of the victim influences it. This contributes to that, end of game.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

I still believe that most of those that dies would have died anyway. Logain was free to go where he pleased before Salidar, and he was in really, really bad shape. He most likely would have died if he hadn't been Healed by Nynaeve.

 

From WoT encyclopaedia (about Cadsuane):

ACoS,Glossary - Men she brings to the White Tower to tend to live markedly longer after being gentled than those brought by other sisters.

They "tend" to live "markedly longer".

 

When Siuan got Healed, she said that she had tried to convince herself that she wasn't dead before. But that she wasn't feeling alive before, the way she did after being Healed. Or something very like that (I'm paraphrasing from out of memory). Siuan and Leane are probably some of the strongest people in the entire series. And they were feeling bad.

 

This is my view on these things, of course. I don't think either one of us can prove anything. With better treatment, they might (just might) be able to make most severed survive. It's also possible that, even with better treatment, most of those that dies would die anyway (maybe a couple of months or maybe a whole year later).