How did I ever.... (book 11 spoilers)

[trakand_01]

Get tired of reading this series!?

 

I'm reading book 11 for the first time and I am enthralled all over again.

 

Egwene is in the tower, Beonin is a traitor, and Perrin is meeting with the Seanchan.

 

Perhaps it's because i've never read this book before, because apart from the very ending and what happens with Malden, I dont know what happens?

 

Just two questions - one: who, if not Sammael (I dont believe he's alive), sent the Myrdraal and the Trollocs into the Ways? Demandred? Two: when did Mat get portly!? Moridin shows an image of Mat and Perrin to the other forsaken, and Mat is described as 'not quite slender'. I've got him down as thin as a whippet  :D However it does describe him as having a cheeky grin. Semirhage looks at the images, and says 'so that is mat cauthon and perrin aybarra. perhaps if you'd shared this with us before, they might already be dead' or something like that. Do you think she recognised Mat?

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Just two questions - one: who, if not Sammael (I dont believe he's alive), sent the Myrdraal and the Trollocs into the Ways?

One popular theory has it as Taim. It fits his methods, it doesn't suit the Shadow's plans, given that it draws attention back to them, gains them nothing, and was all round ill-conceieved, so for it to be a talented general like Demandred is unlikely. Taim, as a newly raised Chosen (so the theory goes) would have the authority to do it, but not necessarily the kowledge of how bad an idea this was.

Do you think she recognised Mat?

Yes. You'll find out who she's masquerading as later in the book, provided you haven't already had that spoiled, but it is someone who has met Mat.

[trakand_01]

Yes, I figured that out. I kind of put 'massachistic, tall, nasty black woman called Anath' and 'Semirhage hiding somewhere to the south' together and came up with that one. That's what made me think she was expressing exasperation when she said if Moridin had shown them earlier, she'd have killed him already. I guess Tylin did him a favour calling him Piglet or Toy or whatever she called him, rather than Mat as i'm sure Semi would have made the connection before now.

 

 

[Cillian]

Not slim =/= Portly  :P

[Jethro]

I think Taim is posing as Chosen behind the scenes. I think Taim did indeed send those Trollocs and also that it was he who ordered Isam to kill Rand and Min. Taim has seen Min on several locations and by now would obviously know she clings to Rand, and the masked channeler Isam spoke to mentioned Min. Isam knew Rand would be with a woman.

[Tyrell]

Yes, I figured that out. I kind of put 'massachistic, tall, nasty black woman called Anath' and 'Semirhage hiding somewhere to the south' together and came up with that one. That's what made me think she was expressing exasperation when she said if Moridin had shown them earlier, she'd have killed him already. I guess Tylin did him a favour calling him Piglet or Toy or whatever she called him, rather than Mat as i'm sure Semi would have made the connection before now.

 

Semi is a sadist, not a masochist. That's pretty much the opposite ;)

[Roxinos]

I think Taim is posing as Chosen behind the scenes.

 

Not posing he is Chosen.

 

I think Taim did indeed send those Trollocs and also that it was he who ordered Isam to kill Rand and Min.

 

When have we ever seen anyone controlling Trollocs besides Padan Fain and the Chosen? Oh ya, and the Myrddraal, but they act on a Chosen's orders.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Get tired of reading this series!?

 

I'm reading book 11 for the first time and I am enthralled all over again.

 

Egwene is in the tower, Beonin is a traitor, and Perrin is meeting with the Seanchan.

 

Perhaps it's because i've never read this book before, because apart from the very ending and what happens with Malden, I dont know what happens?

 

I actually loved the 11th book.  I hated book 10... I wanted to gouge my eyes out from boredom... but 11 was great!

[MikeRiley]

Moridin mentions dealing with Isam near the end of one of the books. His words suggested he's been dealing with Isam repeatedly. Isam knew who sent the trollocs and told Perrin (as Luc) that only a few were sent at first as a distraction so he could kill his target (Fain), but then Perrin showed up so more were sent. So I'm going to have to say Moridin was the one who sent them through the Ways. Either way it was clear the initial target was not Perrin until the moment he arrived.

 

I might have the reason for the distraction mixed up, I'll have to look it up when I go back upstairs.

 

Edit: Here it is,

 

Moridin's dealings with Isam, found in Winter's Heart, chapter 13.

"Mesaana is absent again?" Moridin said instead of answering. "A pity. She should hear what I have to say." Plucking the rat from his shoulder by its tail, he watched the animal wave its legs futilely. Nothing except the rat seemed to exist for him. "Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important," he murmured. "This rat. Whether Isam succeeds in finding and killing that other vermin, Fain. A word whispered in the wrong ear, or not spoken to the right. A butterfly stirs its wings on a branch, and on the other side of the world a mountain collapses." Suddenly the rat twisted, trying to sink its teeth into his wrist. Casually, he flung the creature away. In midair, there was a burst of flame, something hotter than flame, and the rat was gone. Moridin smiled.

 

Isam's talk with Perrin was found in The Shadow Rising, chapter 42. (in the wolf dream)

"A neat trick, Goldeneyes, locking the Waygate."

Perrin tensed, ears straining. No telling from where in this dense growth that voice had come. Not so much as a leaf rustled.

"If you knew how many of the Shadowwrought died trying to get out of the Ways there, it would lift your heart. Machin Shin feasted at that gate, Goldeneyes. But not a good enough trick. You saw: the gate is open now."

There, off to the right. Perrin slipped through the trees as silently as he had when he had hunted here.

"It was only a few hundred to begin, Goldeneyes. Just enough to keep those fool Whitecloaks off balance and see that the renegade died." Slayer's voice became angry. "The Shadow consume me if that man does not have more luck than the White Tower." Abruptly he chuckled. "But you, Goldeneyes. Your presence was a surprise. There are those who want your head on a pike. Your precious Two Rivers will be harrowed from end to end, now, to root you out. What do you say to that, Goldeneyes?"

 

 

I should add that using the Ways to move trollocs about was Ishamael's trick and he wouldn't have known the importance of Perrin's part in the Last Battle. He was a friend of the Dragon's and so the trollocs would have sufficed for him. Just an increase in numbers is all that was needed for the nuisance. Fain was Ishamael's lackey and so I have to say again, I think it was Ishamael who did it.

 

When I first made this post I had Demandred and Moridin's names mixed up, in the event anybody's read it before this edit went through.

[Mr Ares]

I should add that using the Ways to move trollocs about was Ishamael's trick and he wouldn't have known the importance of Perrin's part in the Last Battle. He was a friend of the Dragon's and so the trollocs would have sufficed for him. Just an increase in numbers is all that was needed for the nuisance. Fain was Ishamael's lackey and so I have to say again, I think it was Ishamael who did it.

Couple of minor points. Firstly, why does Moridin send Trollocs and Myrddraal into the Ways to attack Tear when Perrin is in a completely different country? Secondly, considering it was him who brought up the point about Sammael or someone posing as him sending this vast army into the Ways, why did he do that if he already knew that it was him who was responsible? Methinks you are a little confused as to which incident is in question here, it is that mentioned in KOD 3, with the Shadowspawn later showing up in KOD 19, to be massacred by Rand and the Asha'man and Aes Sedai with him.

[MikeRiley]

Well, I wasn't confused before, but now I am.

 

I'm not sure what trolloc attack on Tear you're talking about.. Perrin was there right up to the day Rand left, so he saw the one Sammael smuggled trollocs in for. Can you explain a bit further for me? It's been a while since I read Knife of Dreams.

[trakand_01]

OK I'm ducking out of this topic now before I read more spoilers. :)

[Mr Ares]

Well, I wasn't confused before, but now I am.

 

I'm not sure what trolloc attack on Tear you're talking about.. Perrin was there right up to the day Rand left, so he saw the one Sammael smuggled trollocs in for. Can you explain a bit further for me? It's been a while since I read Knife of Dreams.

I am talking about the Trolloc attack on Lord Algarin's Manor in KoD. Perrin was long gone from Rand's company by the time of this book. In KoD 3, Moridin addresses the Chosen. He tells them that thousands of Trollocs and hundreds of Fades have been sent into the Ways, by Sammael or someone pretending to be him. This is what trakand_01 was asking about. This vast army of Shadowspawn - estimated at a hundred thousand strong, attacks Rand. LTT takes the Source, and weaves Blossoms of Fire, Arrows of Fire and Deathgates, which the asha'man with him copy. This has nothing to do with the attack on the TR in TSR, those Shadowspawn being sent through the Waysto support Slayer, nor with the attack on the Stone earlier in that book, where the trollocs were sent by Sammael, with the Trollocs that attacked them being sent by Semi. The attack in KoD, we are not specifically told who started it, but we have a limited list of suspects. Not Aran'gar, nor Moridin, given that Moridin shares the information in an Aran'gar POV. The other Chosen are Cyndane, Moghedien, Demandred, Semi, Mesaana. Of these, it is difficult to see what they thought to gain from this. They know how vulnerable Shadowspawn are to OP, and they know Rand has LTT in his head telling him things. To Taim, possibly a newly raised Chosen, he doesn't have that same knowledge. He is currently the lead suspect.