Thom and the Red Ajah

[ceknight78]

In TSR (p279), Moiraine states that she and Thom will see one another again. We all now have ideas about how this is going to happen. My thought, is that she promises to tell Thom the names of the Red Ajah who gentled Owyn. Do you believe that this thread will be continued in the final book, and if so, will Thom take steps to take revenge against the unnamed Aes Sedai? Finally, will one of them be Elaida?

 

Chris

[Kadere]

I'd be a little dissappointed if he doesn't get to find out the names. I haven't actually been looking forward to it, but it something that was rather talked about at length in the earlier books, and would almost be a cement for Thom and Moriaine's relationship. I think we will find out the names, and probably get SOME revenge since all the reds are against Egwene. I don't think Elida is responsible though. She's got enough on her plate.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Elaida may not have been directly involved in the gentling of Thom's nephew, but I wouldn't want to place any bets on that. It has always been my suspicion that Elaida's name would be prominent on that list. The PoV's of at least one of the Red Sisters that returned from exile added some wood to the fire when it indicated that Elaida was neck deep in the "vileness" after the Aiel War.

[Luckers]

Oh how good would it be if Thom was the one to take out Elaida... though her being leashed or something would be equally cool.

[algspkr]

Oh how good would it be if Thom was the one to take out Elaida... though her being leashed or something would be equally cool.

Elida must be dealt with by Egwene in some way, it may be Elida falling apart as the Seanchan attack or it may be Egwene stilling her, but Egwene must be involved, Thom may help Egwene, but he cannot be seen as the primary cause of Elida's downfall.

[Nyneave]

Oh how good would it be if Thom was the one to take out Elaida... though her being leashed or something would be equally cool.

 

 

 

Egwene will take out Elaida, so everyone will see her as the true Amyrilin.

[Guest cwestervelt]

If Egwene should "take out" Elaida it would not be enough for the all of the Aes Sedai to accept her as the true Amyrlin Seat. At best, you would have a reversal of he current situaion, with the Reds and Elaida's followers leaving the Tower. At worst, you would end up with further fracturing of the Ajahs. Either way, the 3rd group of Aes Sedai, those who haven't acknowledged either Egwene or Elaida would remain outside.

 

For Egwene to become Amyrlin Seat of a united White Tower, she must convince the Aes Sedai in the Tower, those that are loyal to Elaida, that she is more deserving than Elaida. The Aes Sedai in the Tower must be the ones who depose Elaida and then they must acknowledge Egwene as the Amyrlin Seat.

[Leafburner]

I don't agree that Egwene has to "take out" Elaida at all. All Egwene has to do is sieze control of the Tower. I think this will be made possible not by Egwene doign anything other than what she is doign now. Elaida will cause her own downfall as she already is. She's a drunk and an egomaniac! If the Seanchan come, and they will come, she will crack and Egwene will take control, leaving Elaida to be dealt with by whoever else comes along and is not caught up in the fighting.

 

I'd even say Siuan has more reason to "take out" Elaida than Egwene. Egwene's success will be in her strength, determination, knowledge and her capacity to lead. It won't be about her beating down Elaida.

 

If you consider that Mat and Thom and Mr Fairstrider rescrue Moiraine and take her to the White Tower, it is very possible for Thom to catch up with the Aes Sedai who gentled his nephew. If it turns out one of those Aes Sedai is Elaida then he will be the one to "take her out!"

[Guest cwestervelt]

Leafburner...

 

I not sure if we are agreeing with each other on the main points or not. I'm not sure who you were primarily directing your comments too. If you were directing that at me, then I need to explain further what I meant, if you were directing them at the same person I was, then we are coming from similar positions.

[Leafburner]

cwestervelt,

 

I think we're coming from similar positions. It would be horrible if Egwene stormed into the Amyrlin's chamber and stilled Elaida just as Elaida did Siuan. That's not rising above her adversary. I agree with you that she has to convince the sisters that she is the rightful Amyrlin and she's not going to do that by rough handling Elaida.

 

Everything is pointing to Elaida taking ehrself down. She is drinking heavily, she can't control the crime in Tar Valon, the population are complaining about the rotting garbage in the streets and all Elaida can offer on the subject is,

 

"Fix it! Fix it now!"

 

Not exactly great leadership. Egwene will rise above Elaida and that will be how she succeeds her as Amyrlin.

[kittydesmond]

I believe that you two are correct in the assumption that Egwene wont take Elaida by force...she has already started to turn the tide with example..point in case-> When all the novices stood for her...I believe that is only the beginning of Egwenes rise to Legendary! Not by force, but by example and role modeling. Just my thoughts.

[Leafburner]

And I like the way you described it, kitty. The greatest leaders always lead by example.

[ono-neko]

As much as I dislike Egwene, I agree that she has to act above and beyond what Elaida has done to Siuan. That's the only way to show that she is better than Elaida "the usurper", and that she CAN BE and IS the legitimate Amarilyn.

 

I think Egwene do not have to do anything at all, as Elaida is paving her our path of her downfall. Maybe Egwene will only need to do the "clean-up" by the time most, if not all, of the AS realize that Elaida lacks of any ability to solve WT's problem.

 

Maybe this will also affect the Red Ajah in general in some ways. Maybe the downfall of Red Ajah as they don't really have a purpose anymore (no more need to gentle male channeler)? Maybe the Red will dissolves or just merged into other Ajah? Then Thom will have no need to do anything? I don't know.

[Leafburner]

Wow, I'd never really considered that. The destruction of the Red Ajah!

 

That would be AWESOME!!!

[Guest Cadsuane]

I seriously doubt that the Reds will be gone. I think that it would be bad policy to get rid of the Reds, even if what had been their "job" is now no longer necessary. It kind of negates the lifes work and value of a whole bunch of people. And what happens to the Reds that are still around? Do you force them to choose a different ajah?

 

Or do you mean that htey will eventually just fade away, as no new members join because there is no need for men to be gentled? I think that's a moot point, because we already see them CHANGING to adjust to the new situation. The fact than an envoy of them goes to the BT to bond Asha'man just shows that they ARE capable of changing their views, and I think that is an indication that they will just find something else to have as their ajah's purpose. It will morph, not disappear.

[ceknight78]

If the Red Ajah were dissolved which I could see, because they would be obsolete, they might be free to choose another Ajah, but not forced. Or as Egwene has been considering, they could be allowed to retire and freed from the Three Oaths, yet still bound to the Tower. Or perhaps they could potentially become sort of like a police force or enforcers. They would be sent out to deal with problem Aes Sedai or rogue Aes Sedai/Asha'man.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Thought I posted something here, but it turns out there is another "What will happen to the Red Ajah" thread in the "General" forum.

 

Except among the Blue, there is no need or desire to disband the Red Ajah. Egwene considers herself to be Amyrlin Seat to all Aes Sedai, including the Red.

 

All the Red really needs is to partially broaden, and partially shift their objective. Pevarra's reasons for choosing Red are closer to what the Red should have been than they are. Fixating on male channellers was probably a mistake on their part to begin with. The should also have set themselves up to hunt Darkfriends, male or female, primarily channelling, but mundane as well.

 

The Red Ajah should be able to make this shift without too much difficulty. They have the skills, theoretically, to hunt people. If the Shadow looses Tarmon Gaidon , you are going to see a lot of Darkfriends going to ground and someone needs to try and root them out.

 

Addition: I don't think the colors of the Ajah's are not a Third Age concept, but are a remnant of another age. It is another of those always was and always will be things. I can't find it right now, but I remember something indicating the colors of steps leading up to Portal Stones as being the same as the Ajah colors.

[ceknight78]

According to the guide though, the nature of Ajah has changed, from being an ajah, more like a small grouping of people who met, eventually to Ajah, a formalized society within the tower. The colors could have been picked randomly or unconsciously. Despite what Egwene wants, I think it would be natural for al Ajahs to change. Obviously this is speculation, but if we are to assume that channelers, both male and female survive TG, and the Towers survive as well, it would stand to reason that we will find males living and training at the White Tower, and women doing the same at the Black. I think that alone could influence the growth and nature of all Ajahs. Perhaps the will retain the same color, but more as a matter of tradition, but the aspect of several of them may change.

 

Obviously it's hard to predict what will happen. Will men be bound by the Oath Rods? Will the White Tower insist on their use? Will a fouth Oath be added (not being a Darkfriend?) Will the Aes Sedai be released from the Oaths periodically only to have to take them again, to make sure that they are still bound?

[kittydesmond]

As I posted in the other thread, I dont believe the red ajah will dissolve...Egwene will want to keep the tower whole. And keep it growing..she wants affilation to all women who can channel.

 

I believe her intentions are those of many of the AS as we see in ALOT of pov's.

[Luckers]

Egwene will not be the one reponsible for the end of Elaida, i suspect that when the seanchan attack, Elaida will fall apart and Egwene will step up and take charge. Then something will happen to Elaida--she'll be leashed, or killed in an uprising of the Black, or something.

[Alaksuleiel]

Could not the focus of the Reds be reversed? I mean instead of looking for Male channellers to still and destroy, why not look for Males to be moulded by the tower?

just a thought.......

Ell

[Luckers]

Because who really wants the White Tower in charge of all channelers?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Only the Aes Sedai in all their blinding arrogance. Makes me want to slap them around everytime I read the "We are Aes Sedai" line come out.

 

Except for the White Tower rejects, none of the other major groups of Channellers want to be connected to the Tower and I say let them do their own thing.

[Kepen heal]

Well i found this on the white tower while looking for info on the reds. Its seems like they have an idea of what to do. Or how they will turn out. An new purpose.

 

The Red Ajah at TarValon.net has a stereotype to overcome; Red members do not actively hate the male members of the site, yet we do hold true to the book counterparts by not bonding Warders. That does not make us a weak Ajah, though. We are a close, cohesive group of strong women. The Red Ajah depicted in the books is clear in its goal: to prevent another Breaking. Similarly, we Reds work to prevent a proverbial Breaking within the Tower. We enforce the laws set forth in the Tower Constitution. We protect the well being of Tar Valon and its members. Among those duties is the responsibility to maintain the links throughout the Tower. Succinctly, we are the people that work behind the scenes. While we may not necessarily be the most active of the Ajahs, we are indeed around and getting our jobs done. And while we're still small, we are a strong and proud Ajah.

[ceknight78]

I am quoting from The Fires of Heaven, paperback edition page 15:

 

"Once the existence of a man able to channel the One Power had been the deepest anathema; hunting such men down was the main reason of existence for the Red, but every Ajah helped as it could."

 

My apologies but I am not going by what an internet group shall post as their objectives since they are removed from the novels, and we are talking about the Red in terms of the Wheel of Time and not outside of it.

 

As the Red Ajah is still alive within the Tower and if they are to continue as a society with a purpose they are certainly going to have to find a new purpose. As it is, they have primarily been the enforcers of capturing men who could channel, and it does seem credible that they could become a policing force of Aes Sedai and/or Asha'man. Dealing with renegades, enforcing the law, bringing back runaways... perhaps many other things. Since the fate of the 3rd Age is uncertain it makes it somewhat difficult to speculate as to what will happen to channelers as a whole. Perhaps the Black and White Towers will become unified and the idea of Ajah will evolve once again and "belonging to a color" will become obsolete.