Setalle Anan (SP), can she be healed?

[merlinspetrock]

Interesting thing. I know there are those who say she can not, because she is "Burned out". Then there are those who say Nynaeve and Flynn could heal her. I was just listening to Winters Heart, the part right before Verin decides not to poison Cadsuane.

 

So here is where I think being burned out is also healable, either that or the Aidam theory (those that have been burned out cant use them) is wrong.

 

So Corele (SP Im listening so I dont have the correct spelling) comes to Cadsuane and tells her that she has the most wonderful news... She tells her that Flynn healed the three sisters who were stilled at Dumais' wells.

 

Here is the key. Cadsuane thinks to herself that "every sister carried the fear she might be cut off from the power, and now a way to heal what could not be healed had been discovered." Now being burned out is probably more common than being stilled. Honestly how many people are stilled? I think getting burned out is more common because it is accidental than being stilled because you screwed up really bad.

 

So in essence because of this I think Setalle can still be healed.

 

Actually this is not the part before Verin decides not to poison Cadsuane, This is before that.

[Trib4l]

I have a feeling she will be healed as well, to play some major part in saving Mat's life, and perhaps teaching a few AS a lesson or two.

[Guest Lord Captain Valda]

Being "stilled" and being "burned out" are not the same. They are too different things though they may be similar. Having said that I do think Setalle Anan can be healed. I do not think, however, that it will be the same procedure as healing being "stilled". Nynaeve or somebody else good at healing such as a sister/dedicated/ashaman etc. will have to create it much as Nynaeve figured out how to healing people who were "stilled". They is also the chance that being "stilled" and being "burned out" are just two different names for the same thing. That after the AoL they forgot how to heal them and since they were two different circumstances they got two different names. I do think Setalle Anan can and/or will be healed even if it does cause Nynaeve some headaches.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Short answer: Yes

 

When he reached for Saidin, the invisible barrier was still there, but it no longer seemed stone or brick. It gave as he pressed, bending under his pressure, bending, bending. Suddenly it tore apart before him, like rotted cloth. The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly with Spirit. Aside from that, he still could only channel where he could see, and all he could see, dimly, was the inside of the chest, what he could glimpse of it with his head forced between his knees. Before he even finished with the fists of Spirit, he channelled Air. The chest exploded away from him with a loud boom.

 

Lord of Chaos Chapter 55: "Dumai's Wells"

 

Even though Rand and the other Aes Sedai think about those three Sister's as having been Stilled, they were actually "Burned Out". When Rand broke free, he crushed the remnants of the Shield they were holding on him so hard that the backlash burned the ability to Channel out of them. Since Damer was able to heal them, he would be able to heal Setalle Anan.

[athena]

Umm, has anyone thought about the fact that she might not want to be healed? I mean I remember in KOD when she is reminiscing to Mat but I also remember her saying she was perfectly happy being married and sounded like she gave up on the power a long time ago, I think she can healed, but I don't think she'll want it.

[torgo02]

No, I don't think Setal can be healed. My reason is she can't sense the source. It is often noted how stilled/gentled people no longer want to live because they can sense the source but can't touch it. Setal never mentions this. She went on with her life because she became just a normal person. She could remember the source, but not sense it. So it wasn't always needling her brain and making her want to die.

 

torgo02

[Cybertrolloc]

cwestervelt, next paragraph he weaves something specifically to still those Aes Sedai.

 

We'll see when we see, there isn't too much to retcon if burned out is able to be healed, there haven't been too many of them on screen after all.

[Guest cwestervelt]

No, he doesn't channel anything after that.

 

Continuing from the last quote...

 

Free Lews Therin breathed, and it was an echo of Rand's thought. Free. Or maybe the other way around.

 

They will pay, Lews Therin growled. I am the Lord of the Morning.

 

Rand knew he had to move even more quickly now, move quickly and violently, but at first he struggled to move at all. Muscles beaten twice a day for he did not know how long, crammed into a chest every day, those muscles screamed as he gritted his teeth and slowly pushed up to hands and knees. It was a distant screaming, someone else's body in pain, but he could not make that body move faster however strong saidin made him feel. Emptiness buffered emotion, but something close to panic tried to wriggle creepers into the Void.

 

He was in a large clump of scattered trees, with broad shafts of sunlight filtering through nearly leafless branches; he was shocked to realize it was still daylight, maybe even midday. He had to move; more Aes Sedai would be coming. Two lay on the ground near him, aparently unconcious, one with a nasty gash bleeding across her forehead. The third, an angular woman, was on her knees staring at nothing, clutching her head in both hands and screaming. She seemed untouched by the splinters and pieces of the chest. He did not recognize any of them. An instant of regret that it was not Galina or Erian he had stilled -- he was not sure he had intended to do that; Lews Therin had gone on at length about how he intended to sever every one of them who had imprisoned him; Rand hoped it had been his own idea, however hasty -- an instant, and he say another shape stretched out on the ground beneath bits of the chest. In rose-colored coat and breaches.

 

The stilling/severing was a result of his crushing the threads of Spirit the Aes Sedai used to hold the Shield on Rand. That means they were burned out by the backlash.

[Cybertrolloc]

Paragraph before that then, the words used are something like "fists of Spirit." None of the Aes Sedai that checked up on these women could tell the difference?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Paragraph before that then' date=' the words used are something like "fists of Spirit." None of the Aes Sedai that checked up on these women could tell the difference?[/quote']

 

Good grief. There is no paragraph before that in which Rand is able to grasp Saidin..

 

The complete passage this time...

 

Doubled painfully inside the chest, panting, Rand fumbled at the shield between him and the Source. Moaning floated across the Void, grim fury and burning fear slid along the edge of it; he was no longer altogether certain which was his and which Lews Therin's. Suddenly his breath froze. Six points, but one was hard now. Not soft; hard. And then a second. A third. Rasping laughter filled his ears; that was his, he realized after a moment. A fourth knot became hard. He waited, trying to stifle what sounded uncomfortably like deranged giggling. The last two points remained soft. Those muffled cackles died.

 

The will feel it, Lews Therin groaned desperately. They will feel it and call the others back.

 

Rand licked cracked lips with a tongue nearly as dry; all the moisture in him seemed to have gone into the sweat that slicked him and bit his welts. If he tried and failed, there would never be another chance. He cound not wait. There might never be another chance anyway.

 

Cautiously, blindly, he felt at the four hard points. There was nothing there, any more than the shield itself was anything he could feel or see, but somehow he could feel around this nothingness, feel a shape to it. Like knots. There was always space between the cords in a knot, however tightly pulled, gaps finer than a hair, where only air could go. Slowly, ever so slowly, he fumbled into one of those gaps, squeezing through infinitesimal spaces between what seemed not to be there at all. Slowly. How long before the others returned? If they took it up again before he found a way through this tortuous labyrinth... Slowly. And suddenly he could feel the Source, like brushing it with a fingernail; the bare edge of a fingernail. Saidin was still beyond him -- the shield was still there -- but he could feel hope welling in Lews Therein. Hope and trepidation. Two Aes Sedai were still holding their part of the barrier, still aware of what they held.

 

Rand could not have explained what he did next, though Lews Therin had explained how; explained between drifting off into his own mad fancies, between towering rages and wailing over his lost Ilyena, between gibbering that he deserved to die and shouting that he would not let them sever him. It was as if he flexed what he had extended through the knot, flexed it as hard as he could. The knot resisted. It trembled. And then it burst. There were only five. The barrier thinned. He could feel it grow less. An invisible wall only five bricks thick now instead of six. The two Aes Sedai would have felt it, too, though they might not understand exactly what had happened, or how. Please, Light, not now. Not yet.

 

Quickly, almost frantically, he attacked the remaining knots in turn. A second went; the shield thinned. It was quicker now, quicker with each, as if he were learning the path through, though it was different each time. The third not was gone. And a third soft point appeared; maybe the Aes Sedai did not know what he was doing, but they would not simply sit while the shield grew less and less. Truly frantic, Rand hurled himself at the fourth knot. He had to unravel it whatever he did. Almost weeping, he struggled through the complex windings, slipping between nothingness. Frenziedly, he flexed, bursting the knot. The shield remained, but held by only three now. If he could only move fast enough.

 

When he reached for Saidin, the invisible barrier was still there, but it no longer seemed stone or brick. It gave as he pressed, bending under his pressure, bending, bending. Suddenly it tore apart before him, like rotted cloth. The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly with Spirit. Aside from that, he still could only channel where he could see, and all he could see, dimly, was the inside of the chest, what he could glimpse of it with his head forced between his knees. Before he even finished with the fists of Spirit, he channelled Air. The chest exploded away from him with a loud boom.

 

Free Lews Therin breathed, and it was an echo of Rand's thought. Free. Or maybe the other way around.

 

They will pay, Lews Therin growled. I am the Lord of the Morning.

 

Rand knew he had to move even more quickly now, move quickly and violently, but at first he struggled to move at all. Muscles beaten twice a day for he did not know how long, crammed into a chest every day, those muscles screamed as he gritted his teeth and slowly pushed up to hands and knees. It was a distant screaming, someone else's body in pain, but he could not make that body move faster however strong saidin made him feel. Emptiness buffered emotion, but something close to panic tried to wriggle creepers into the Void.

 

He was in a large clump of scattered trees, with broad shafts of sunlight filtering through nearly leafless branches; he was shocked to realize it was still daylight, maybe even midday. He had to move; more Aes Sedai would be coming. Two lay on the ground near him, aparently unconcious, one with a nasty gash bleeding across her forehead. The third, an angular woman, was on her knees staring at nothing, clutching her head in both hands and screaming. She seemed untouched by the splinters and pieces of the chest. He did not recognize any of them. An instant of regret that it was not Galina or Erian he had stilled -- he was not sure he had intended to do that; Lews Therin had gone on at length about how he intended to sever every one of them who had imprisoned him; Rand hoped it had been his own idea, however hasty -- an instant, and he say another shape stretched out on the ground beneath bits of the chest. In rose-colored coat and breaches.

Lord of Chaos Chapter 55: Dumai's Wells

 

Prior to crushing the three points of Spirit making the Shield, Rand had only been working at knots. At weaves that were not maintained. Up until that point, he had been unable to grasp Saidin. He never directed any weaves at the 3 Sisters. He directed is flows of Spirit at the 3 points of the Shield they were holding on him. He could not even see the Sister's to try and directly target them. The Aes Sedai were burned out when he crushed the Shield they had on them.

[Pevin]

In the glossary of _tSR_, stilling is defined as:

 

"The act, performed by Aes Sedai, of shutting off a woman who can channel from the One Power. A woman who has been stilled can sense the True Source, but cannot touch it....Officially, stilling is the result of trail and sentence for a crime. When it happens accidentally, it is called being burned out. In practice, the term stilling is often used for both."

 

Stilling and being burned out are the same exact thing except in how they occur, so Setalle Anan can still sense the Source and be healed. She cannot use the adam because she no longer has the ability to channel.

[Cybertrolloc]

Pevan, compare Anan with Adam and Suian with Adam, Suian feels emotions and whatnot, Setalle doesn't (of course Suian's is an Elayne special Adam...there might be differences).

 

Ok, I see what you're saying cwestervelt.

- Aes Sedai shield Rand, 6 of them hold the weave.

- Throw him in the box, travel.

- Battle starts, 4 leave and tie off their portion of the shield.

- Rand starts breaking the tied off portions.

- One comes back.

- Rand breaks through what remains of the shield...

 

Ick, breaks the shield then grabs those "focus points" of the shield and throws spirit at them...that's already a bit dodgy. Men can sense women holding the Source in some fashion, but I don't think it was that...it took Rand some time to notice the battle after all, but he'd been having a bad day up to this point too.

 

I still defer to the Wise Ones and Aes Sedai examining them and saying Stilled, not burnt out. Also note how the Red phrases it in her letter to the new Red Ajah head in KoD. Also I think there's enough maybe and might in any description about things likely to burn you out to give Jordan enough room to do what he wants.

[Inara]

'stilled' implies concious intent, like 'murder'

'burned out' is more comparable to 'manslaughter'

 

the red uses the term to intensify the impact

the wise ones use it as it is interchangable with the term burned out - as pevin found in the glossary

 

therefore, satelle can be healed, but has lived for so long like she has that she may not want to, what about her husband and her children, does she want them to know who she was, how old she is?

IMO, it would come down to personal chice, in the end, but she may be instrumental in the further study of ter'angrial...

so its up to her

[Guest cwestervelt]

Pevan' date=' compare Anan with Adam and Suian with Adam, Suian feels emotions and whatnot, Setalle doesn't (of course Suian's is an Elayne special Adam...there might be differences).

 

Ok, I see what you're saying cwestervelt.

- Aes Sedai shield Rand, 6 of them hold the weave.

- Throw him in the box, travel.

- Battle starts, 4 leave and tie off their portion of the shield.

- Rand starts breaking the tied off portions.

- One comes back.

- Rand breaks through what remains of the shield...

 

Ick, breaks the shield then grabs those "focus points" of the shield and throws spirit at them...that's already a bit dodgy. Men can sense women holding the Source in some fashion, but I don't think it was that...it took Rand some time to notice the battle after all, but he'd been having a bad day up to this point too.

 

I still defer to the Wise Ones and Aes Sedai examining them and saying Stilled, not burnt out. Also note how the Red phrases it in her letter to the new Red Ajah head in KoD. Also I think there's enough maybe and might in any description about things likely to burn you out to give Jordan enough room to do what he wants.[/quote']

 

There are a couple key elements in when Suian and Leane try the Adam, and when Setalle Anan tries it.

 

Hope and Desperation

 

Siuan and Leane were newly cut off. They hadn't come to terms and been able to move on yet. The desperately wanted to sense something in the hope they could change there situation, even if it was through a proxy.

 

Setalle on the other hand had lived some 20+ years since she was burned out. She had come to terms with her situation and moved on. She didn't that desperate desire to touch the source again.

[merlinspetrock]

Siuan and Leane were newly cut off. They hadn't come to terms and been able to move on yet. The desperately wanted to sense something in the hope they could change there situation, even if it was through a proxy.

 

Setalle on the other hand had lived some 20+ years since she was burned out. She had come to terms with her situation and moved on. She didn't that desperate desire to touch the source again.

 

Yeah this kind of makes sense to me. If I would have liked to see any body restored, I would rather see Setalle than Siuan and Leane. That could be because I like Mat more than Egwene so I dislike the surrounding characters that show up in Egwenes pov.

[Llewin]

Ok a few comments (I like this post)

 

They is also the chance that being "stilled" and being "burned out" are just two different names for the same thing. That after the AoL they forgot how to heal them and since they were two different circumstances they got two different names.

 

In the Age of Legends healing being "Severed" as they called it was not considered possible. It is one of those 'annoying new abilities' that the backward channelers of Rand's age have discovered' date=' like unraveling a weave and the warder bond.

 

In the Age of Legends they did call it being Severed however, whether it was done on purpose or by accident...

 

[b']

When Rand broke free' date=' he crushed the remnants of the Shield they were holding on him so hard that the backlash burned the ability to Channel out of them. [/quote'][/b]

 

How do we know that Rand crushed 'the remenant of their shield' rather than actually crushing their ability to channel directly? A channelers ability to touch the One Power is located 'inside them' but the One Power itself, per RJ, is located 'everywhere and in one direct spot, all at the same time, at any given moment' ... I think those little 'soft knots' where direct links to the channelers holding the shields and he actually directly crushed the ability to channel out of them, rather than just crushing the weave...

 

There are a couple key elements in when Suian and Leane try the Adam' date=' and when Setalle Anan tries it.

 

Hope and Desperation

 

Siuan and Leane were newly cut off. They hadn't come to terms and been able to move on yet. The desperately wanted to sense something in the hope they could change there situation, even if it was through a proxy.

 

Setalle on the other hand had lived some 20+ years since she was burned out. She had come to terms with her situation and moved on. She didn't that desperate desire to touch the source again.[/quote']

This is a really good point... even if it was possible for Setalle to sense through the A'dam she would have had to really focus on it, and if she didnt believe it was possible she probably 1. either didnt try or 2. ignored what she sensed because she didnt think it could possible be real...

 

All of that said, I dont really think there is any difference between Stilling and being "Burned out" based solely on the fact that AOL channelers only used one universal term for these concepts.

 

 

Also, why the heck isnt the

command working right for me in this post? :)

[Guest cwestervelt]

It isn't just you and it isn't just this post. I've been finding the "Quote" option hasn't been working either.

 

The reason we know that Rand crushed the remnants of the shield is the book is quite explicit in the description.

 

Until that scene, it had always been 6 soft points. That is implied in the statement, "Six points, but one was hard now." The points were soft while the Aes Sedai were actively holding the shield. 1 Point for each of the flows of Spirit that composed the shield. Four of the Points turned hard when the Flows were knotted allowing the Sister's to try and defend the camp. Rand unravelled those knots, then a 3rd Sister re-established part of the shield, restoring a 3rd soft point. When Rand breaks free, the book clearly states that he grabbed and crushed those 3 soft points.

 

Also of note in the passage is that, after the shield was destroyed, Rand could still only channel where he could see. He couldn't see the Sister's to have crushed the ability directly. He could only attack there weaves, not them.

[Guest cwestervelt]

BTW, the issue with the

has something to do with using the

syntax. Quotes that don't have the source appear to be working fine.

[Llewin]

hmmmm.... plausible... however I think it is equally likely that those 6, or 3 'soft points' were direct connections to the people holding the shield...

 

It just doesnt seem intuitively obvious that rand crushing a thread of the one power, no matter how violently would cause such a backlash, especially since, if I recall, Robert Jordan said that the effect of having a weave cut was somewhat like a physical blow, but a mild blow... even a HAYMAKER wouldnt sever them... maybe its just me :)

 

I know rand couldnt see the aes sedai but he cant *see* a womans ability to channel to sever her either, I think rand felt their channeling ability in those soft points...

[Guest cwestervelt]

The 3 Sisters where holding the threads for the shield when Rand crushed it so yes, the 3 points he attacked were a direct connection to them. They would not have been burned out otherwise.

 

The fact that they were actively maintianed by the Aes Sedai is what made them "soft" points. The ones that Rand was able to break first were "hard" indicating that they were tied off. It is an example of how much the Aes Sedai have forgotten. At some point in the story they mention how it is tradition (though they have forgotten why) to have 6 Sisters hold the shield on a male channeller, they are to use all of their strength and they are not to tie of the threads. What Rand was able to do when the 4 points were tied off shows the reason for maintaining the shield.

 

All threads that are cut give some form of backlash. The more power that is being held, and the more viciously the threads is cut, the stronger that back lash is going to be. The way Rand's escape reads, he put everything he could into crushing those three points. This wasn't on the order of a "haymaker" punch, it was a Mack truck running over a Pinto. The resultant backlash overloaded the 3 Sisters still holding the shield.

[Llewin]

Heh.. I'll buy it, we really are just splitting hairs anyway :) 6 of one, half a dozen the other