Fisher King

[lunchboxman]

So we know that rand is representing the fisher king, but where/what is his grail?

[MsDanya]

I'd think it represented some sort of power, like the One Power.

[lunchboxman]

Yeah i was just wondering because if Rand is supposed to be the fisher king then both he and the land cannot be healed until someone finds the grail...

[Majsju]

Just because Rand draws inspiration from the Arturian legends (as well as several others), it does not mean every single little detail will be carbon-copied.

 

Of course, Rand might already have found his grail. In French, one of the names for the grail is San gréal . Heard of something similar in WOT? :)

[Ndshacker]

Nope I cant recall anything that sounds like that... could it be a sangreal?

[OsaroLJ]

It also sounds like the "grail Hero" would be inherently Mat, right? Since he's the one on a quest to save the world, which, as we know, is directly connected to the Dragon. Makes one go hmmmm ;)

[Jethro]

Maybe it was the access key for the Choeden Kal? After all, Rand has already performed a miracle with it

[Majsju]

If it is a sa'angreal, I would rather say it is Callandor, since there is a connection between that and the Dragon. And with TG coming, it might still have a role to play.

[Jethro]

I would have thought the figure would be holding a sword if it was Callandor

[Majsju]

Why? If Callandor was the San Greal, it would be something positive for Rand to have, right? But the Fisher King version Moridin plays with seems to be the version that in our times legends would be missing the San Greal.

 

The problem with trying to translate our legends into a Randland counterpart is that RJ took bits and pieces from dozens of different sources, and molded them into a coherrent single story.

 

One thing though, if San Greal would be a memory of Sa'angreal (and the other way around), Callandor makes more sense in my eyes than the Choedan Kal. While it is true that Rand performed more of a miracle with the CK, neither the sa'angreal nor the "miracle" itself is connected with Rand outside his circle. I mean, even Logain doubts Rand had anything to do with the cleansing. Callandor on the other hand is intimately connected with Rand. And perhaps that is all there is to the connection with our worlds story, Rand is supposed to have the San Greal, or the world is screwed.

[Jethro]

True. It is in the prophecies that Rand will cure a madness-Moiraine mentions it in EotW I think-but of course it doesnt mention the Choeden Kal, whereas Callandor has a branch of prophecy of its own. I see your point.

 

One thing I do like about Callandor is that it isnt what makes Rand what he is. With other fantasies like Sword of Truth, or some Shannara books, the sword itself is their source of power. With Rand it helps others recognise him but thats it.

 

Didnt the Fisher King have bandaged eyes, but still two hands?

[Majsju]

No, it only mentions one hand, pressed to his side with blood running through his fingers.

[Tyrell]

Callandor is pretty obviously also linked with Arthurian legend anyway, pulling a sword from the stone...?

[Jethro]

Thats only similar going by the fact that someone pulled it out though. Anyone could pull it out, not just someone worthy; the fact that Narishma was supposed to pull it out doesnt make it any more significant, because Rands wards didnt specify that Narishma alone could pull it out-Narishma even notes that Rands wards nearly killed him.

 

While we're on about similarities I have to say I think there are way too many Jesus references. Saying that, the context and such hides them to a point but if you start digging there are so many. The marks on Rands hands, the Laurel crown, the wound(s) in his side, the foreshadowing of his return after death; Jesus aparantly fed 1000 people with whatever, and we have Rand dealing with famine...the list goes on.

 

Check this out. I have believed for years Jesus didnt feed 1000 people with one loaf of bread or whatever, but rather he turned up at the right time with wagonloads of food, and the story has evolved with every telling to become a miracle. And in Wheel of Time, a possible past and future of this world, Rand deals with famine across a whole nation, in a world where rumors evolve with every telling... Strange, that.

[Majsju]

The 'pulling the sword from the stone' part would rather be Rand. He was the only one who could do it, and the fortress is after all named the Stone.

But who would be the Lady in the lake? ;D

[Jethro]

Elayne, damn her ginger hair!

[Majsju]

Granted, she bathes a lot, but would she not rather be Lady of the bathtub? ;D

[Jethro]

Aparantly the Lady of the Lake did something to Excalibur, and the only person close to that is Elayne. Plus Elayne is gonna drown in the last book. Brandon told me

[Spirit1025]

While we're on about similarities I have to say I think there are way too many Jesus references. Saying that, the context and such hides them to a point but if you start digging there are so many. The marks on Rands hands, the Laurel crown, the wound(s) in his side, the foreshadowing of his return after death; Jesus aparantly fed 1000 people with whatever, and we have Rand dealing with famine...the list goes on.

 

Check this out. I have believed for years Jesus didnt feed 1000 people with one loaf of bread or whatever, but rather he turned up at the right time with wagonloads of food, and the story has evolved with every telling to become a miracle. And in Wheel of Time, a possible past and future of this world, Rand deals with famine across a whole nation, in a world where rumors evolve with every telling... Strange, that.

 

Yes, I agree there are many references to Yeshua/Jesus, and I think Jordan intended it that way. I'm not entirely certain on his personal religious beliefs, but I think he considered himself some sort of Christian. I had thought about the marks on his hands, the wound in his side, and the fact that his blood is what will save the world. This is why I believe he will die at Tarmon Gaidon but then come back, perhaps by Healing. I feel like Healing of death is foreshadowed in a few of Nynaeve's POVs. I hadn't thought about the Laurel Crown/Crown of Swords (crown of thorns?) or him feeding the people. Good observations!

 

And for your future reference, Yeshua fed 5,000 people (though it was probably more, 5,000 men and then however many women and children were with them too...) with five loaves of bread and two fish. If you're going to try to discredit things like that, you should probably know what it actually says. =) And, I could give you the reasons why it is not just a myth that has gotten messed up with retelling, but I don't think this is the proper place for such. If you care to hear my thoughts, I can send it to you by pm or email.

 

Perhaps Jordan wanted to classify the Biblical accounts with all the pagan mythology he also incorporates into his work. I don't know if that is true, but it seems that way sometimes.

 

I also see references to Arthur in Rand. That foretelling about three women in the boat and Rand's body...that is straight out of Arthurian legend.

[Ndshacker]

I know im probably wrong, but in Catholic Religion, at mass you say, "Peace be with you" Borderlands, there is quite bit of resemblance between Christians and The Borderlanders

[lunchboxman]

Right, when he's being carried away to Avalon. Here's another one for you where is Rands Avalon?

[Kadere]

I would guess it's Tar Valon. It's an island, much like Avalon, where women are stationed and do healing, which would make sense for his women to take him to. So far in the series he's never been to Tar Valon, yet at the beginning of TEotW it was considered to be a "place of safety" and after TG, it could be assumed it will be again. It would be coming full circle for him to go to Tar Valon to rest when it's the place he set to go for exactly that reason.

 

Plus the words "Avalon" and "Valon" are a lot alike.

[Jethro]

And for your future reference, Yeshua fed 5,000 people (though it was probably more, 5,000 men and then however many women and children were with them too...) with five loaves of bread and two fish. If you're going to try to discredit things like that, you should probably know what it actually says. =) And, I could give you the reasons why it is not just a myth that has gotten messed up with retelling, but I don't think this is the proper place for such. If you care to hear my thoughts, I can send it to you by pm or email.

 

Well Spirit1025, forgive me for being abrupt but I wasnt discrediting anything at all. For that matter I pointed out a similarity between Rand dealing with famine and Jesus dealing with famine, and the point of that was that I think Jesus's tale was exaggerated. The fact that I didnt specify the exact ammount of food for the exact ammount of people is irrelevant because my point was that I think there was a more reasonable explanation. So if you're going to discredit my post, maybe you should read it properly beforehand.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I know im probably wrong, but in Catholic Religion, at mass you say, "Peace be with you" Borderlands, there is quite bit of resemblance between Christians and The Borderlanders

One the most formal ways of greating someone in Arabic is:

 

"Salaam aleikum"

With the response being

"Wa aleikum a'salaam"

 

"Peace be upon you."

"And upon you be peace."

 

It's not uncommon.

 

Personally, I see more similarities between Boarderlanders and the Japanese.

 

And, as an aside in this topic:

 

"Shai'tan" is the Arabic word for Satan.

 

And the ruler of Amadicia's name includes the words "Kareem (or Karim)" and "Al'salaam" and one other which I can never remember.

 

Kareem = Generous

Al'salaam = In peace.