One Power strength

[Nightstrike]

Correction, we know that Rahvin ran(eventually), and you belive that he panicked.

But if he panicked, why didn't he Travel to Shayol Ghul, or another safe location? He probably realized that Rand had a angreal, and decided that he couldn't defeat him face to face, and chose to try guerilla tactics instead, which were sucessfull until Nynaeve saved the day. But when Rand chased Rahvin, Rahvin could have escaped at anytime. But he didn't. Because he knew that skill can defeat strenght.

Rahvin ran (a lot) and hid (also a lot). Him using balefire=him panicking. Rand chased Rahvin because he could read the residue of the gateway. If hiding=skill, then Rahvin must be very skilled indeed. No, actually I'm just joking. Of course Rahvin is both strong and skilled - it even says so in chapter 55, TFoH. But the point is that Rahvin didn't consider that enough for him to face Rand with angreal.

[General Cauthon]

:..."He had been clever in his attacks, clever in his escapes, but from the moment he fled the throneroom he had not faced Rand for more than the instant it took to strike and flee. Rahvin was strong, perhaps as strong as Rand and more knowledgeable, but Rand had the fat-little-man angreal in his pocket, and Rahvin had none."

 

Where does it say how long Rahvin faced Rand in the throneroom before fleeing? It only says that from the moment he was forced to flee, he didn't change his mind...!

 

And a little later Rand gets attacked (by a hidden Rahvin) with balefire. Rand actually thinks:..."So much for the Forsaken fearing to use balefire.". Rahvin is strong and knowledgeable, but he still do not dare face Rand the way Cyndane did with Alivia. And Rand did not get his arm burnt to the bone, but Alivia did. This, and the Moghedien/Nynaeve fight gives us a perspective.

 

You can't say that Rahvin didn't dare to face Rand the way Cyndane faced Alivia, when in the books, the POV's are cut 1 second into each fight, and BOTH Rahvin and Cyndane is still facing their opponents. Rahvin was even much closer to Rand, then Cyndane was to Alivia. That Rahvin was able to escape being face to face with Rand in the same room, without being harmed, why is it impossible that Cyndane was being able to escape being face to face with Alivia, in a forest, 100 paces apart? The way I see it, Cyndane should have an easier escape then Rahvin....

 

And Rand had injuries all over his body, and was seconds from losing, when when he was saved. It seems to me that Alivia did far better in her fight with Cyndane, then Rand did against Rahvin.

 

Rahvin ran (a lot) and hid (also a lot). Him using balefire=him panicking. Rand chased Rahvin because he could read the residue of the gateway. If hiding=skill, then Rahvin must be very skilled indeed. No, actually I'm just joking. Of course Rahvin is both strong and skilled - it even says so in chapter 55, TFoH. But the point is that Rahvin didn't consider that enough for him to face Rand with angreal.

 

Rand used balefire on several occasions, but did he necessarily panic at the time? Rahvin had tried plenty of other weaves without being sucessfull, perhaps he decided to try balefire. Had balefire=panic, wouldn't Rahvin have used in the throneroom before running? Or do you suggest that Rahvin panicked halfway through his fight with Rand?

 

 

[Thor]

Please stop comparing Rahvin vs Rand to Alivia vs Cyndanne.  A fight in TAR does not reflect what happens, Egwene would destroy Rand in TAR, so no point in talking about that.

[Nightstrike]

Where does it say how long Rahvin faced Rand in the throneroom before fleeing? It only says that from the moment he was forced to flee, he didn't change his mind...!

It was Rand who, in a rage, went into the throneroom and tried to corner Rahvin. The situation was the reversed for Alivia/Cyndane. Rand knew Rahvin was much more skilled than himself and he also considered Rahvin as equally strong as himself in the One Power. And yet he went into Caemlyn to hunt him down.

 

 

You can't say that Rahvin didn't dare to face Rand the way Cyndane faced Alivia, when in the books, the POV's are cut 1 second into each fight, and BOTH Rahvin and Cyndane is still facing their opponents. Rahvin was even much closer to Rand, then Cyndane was to Alivia. That Rahvin was able to escape being face to face with Rand in the same room, without being harmed, why is it impossible that Cyndane was being able to escape being face to face with Alivia, in a forest, 100 paces apart? The way I see it, Cyndane should have an easier escape then Rahvin....

Where does it ever say that Rahvin faced his opponent? Not in TFoH (chapters 54 & 55), anyway. If Cyndane had resorted to balefire, then there's a high probability that Alivia would have been dead. So we have reason to believe she did not resort to balefire. I think it's easier to escape in a palace that you're very familiar with than it is out in unfamiliar terrain.

 

 

And Rand had injuries all over his body, and was seconds from losing, when when he was saved. It seems to me that Alivia did far better in her fight with Cyndane, then Rand did against Rahvin.

Rand chased Rahvin, which made it easy for Rahvin to ambush from hiding. Alivia barred Cyndane's way in order to protect Rand. Rahvin fled to tar (despite him being more skilled in the One Power) so he could challenge Rand's superiour OP strength:..."The True Source receded; the Void shrank. Streaks of panic flared beyond the emotionless emptiness. Whatever Rahvin was trying to change him to, it could not channel. Saidin slipping away, thinning, thin even pulled through the angreal. The surrounding balconies stared down at him, empty, and the colonnade.".

 

Rand used balefire on several occasions, but did he necessarily panic at the time? Rahvin had tried plenty of other weaves without being sucessfull, perhaps he decided to try balefire. Had balefire=panic, wouldn't Rahvin have used in the throneroom before running? Or do you suggest that Rahvin panicked halfway through his fight with Rand?

Rand was in a rage because Aviendha & Mat were killed by Rahvin. Rahvin used balefire first:..."So much for the Forsaken fearing to use balefire.". And no, I'm not suggesting Rahvin used anything else in the throneroom. I'm suggesting he ran instead of facing Rand in the throneroom. Don't you agree balefire is something they use as a last resort?

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

You fail to address that situation.

I know you're one of those guys that question everything and buy nothing, but I feel I have already addressed enough.

Which is why you'll lose this debate. You cannot answer my questions. Your theory lies in tatters, with nothing to support it. But never mind, you've addressed enough.

 

Yes, that's my point! Cyndane managed to cut Alivia's weaves. That speaks in favor of a lesser difference in strength. But if you wanna bet on higher than astronomical odds, then please go ahead. I speak in favor of reasonable odds.

You speak in favour of imaginary odds. So your point is that because Cyndane is able to cut weaves, there is less difference in strength? That only supports your point if you make further assumptions about the relationship between strength of weave and strength required to cut it. I don't recall any actual evidence supporting that it takes as much Power to cut a weave as is in the weave, and without that you don't have a point. We know Cyndane can cut Alivia's weaves. We saw her do it. But that doesn't support you.

You're arguing for an absurd situation where strength matters none whatsoever.

No, I'm not. I am saying, quite clearly, no matter how much you misrepresent my statements, that if we do not know about the relationship between strength and cutting weaves, we cannot draw reliable conclusions. We know Cyndane was able to cut the weaves of someone stronger than her. We do not know how much stronger, nor do we know beyond what point it would be impossible for her to cut weaves, or even if there is such a point.

Only the skill to cut weaves matters.

No.

That is so absurd that I don't know what to answer.

Your absurdity, not mine.

No need to form circles then, I would say.

Why would you say something as silly as that?

And yet they have done so (the cleansing for instance).

Yes. What's your point?

One of my arguments is based on a circle of 2 (Careane&Vandene).

So what?

And Rahvin should have defeated Rand in the throneroom.

How? Rand can cut Rahvin's weaves as well. If cutting weaves was all that mattered, it would be a stalemate. Until one weave got through.

But instead he resorted to balefire, ran, hid and escaped into Tar (where the One Power can be countered with control over the dreamworld).

Again, so what?

Weren't some of the Forsaken planning to link and use Sammael as bait?

Yes they were. I still fail to see the relevance.

If they were that much more knowledgeable and skilled (and close to his own strength, which hardly even matters according to you)

I never said that. They would be, linked, more knowlegeable, more skilled, and stronger. Far better able to counter anything he did and cut him off from the Source.

, then why would they link?

So they would have a greater advantage. Strength can be countered with greater skill, and vice versa. Neither is a guarantee of victory. Even a man with the Choedan Kal could be beaten by someone with a sword. Just because you can cut weaves doesn't guarantee you victory, any more than being impossible to touch directly with a weave does. But all you say is that if Alivia was beyond a certain strength Cyndane couldn't cut her weaves, and Cyndane cut her weaves, therefore she must be below that strength. Yet you provide no evidence for such a threshold's existence, nor where it is. Therefore all we can fall back on is cold, hard fact. Whatever the difference in strength, it was not so much that Cyndane was unable to cut Alivia's weaves, nor was it such that her greater skill didn't allow her to survive the encounter of someone with a weave dissolving ter'angreal and an angreal giving her a significant strength advantage. That is all. Everything beyond that is your imagining. Not supported by the evidence. We do not know the difference in strength, nor do we know precisely the strength given by the angreal, therefore we cannot say with any degree of certainty that either one is stronger than the other, without an angreal.

 

OK, I'm back home again. I've looked up those chapters. We have Rand thinking:..."He had been clever in his attacks, clever in his escapes, but from the moment he fled the throneroom he had not faced Rand for more than the instant it took to strike and flee. Rahvin was strong, perhaps as strong as Rand and more knowledgeable, but Rand had the fat-little-man angreal in his pocket, and Rahvin had none." (TFoH, The Threads burn).

Doesn't counter what I said.

Rahvin is strong and knowledgeable, but he still does not dare face Rand the way Cyndane did with Alivia.

Why not? That is the question. And how did they face each other? We see the start of the fight, then later learn Alivia was injured. We do not see how it ended. And the circumstances are different. Rand was intent on pursuing Rahvin. Alivia was not intent on pursuing Cyndane. She was trying to stop her getting past. She could chase her off and consider that a victory. Rand could not do the same. It is not necessarily a matter of daring, so much of Cyndane being forced into a certain type of encounter by necessity. Alivia stood between Cyndane and Rand, therefore she had to get around or through her. Rahvin was not trying to get anywhere, only to defeat Rand. He therefore tried to do so on ground that favoured him, as any smart tactician would. And for all you claim he was panicking, his actions are entirely reasonable. Finally, they are two different people, so it is not necessarily true that they would both face more or less the same problem in the same way. Rahvin went for a running fight, not letting Rand get a shot in. Cyndane went on the offensive, trying to keep Alivia off balance. Both viable paths to the same goal. Needless to say, Rahvin's proved better - Cyndane was driven off, but Rahvin was on the brink of victory before outside interference cost him the fight. But there we have an example of someone of greater skill beating someone of greater strength. So we have proof it can be done, we have Cyndane trying to do it, but unsuccessful. We have nothing to support you though. Not one shred of evidence to say that if she was beyond a certain threshold she couldn't have done what she did, and therefore she cannot, unaided, be stronger than Cyndane. There is nothing to suggest it. There is, however, plenty to suggest that we cannot say for sure either way.

 

What if you made it a massive guy who knows how to throw a punch, and a smaller guy who is an MMA fighter? The big guy wins if he can land one solid blow. The smaller guy isn't going to make it easy for him to land it. Attack in a way that favours your skill set, and doesn't allow the other guy to make best use of his strength advantage and you can win. Ground and pound. Or take him down and put him in an arm bar. Or similar. Difficult? Yes. Doable? Certainly.

That comparison would be flawed because human legs are stronger than human arms.

That would be irrelevant to the analogy. The big man is stronger, but the smaller guy is better trained, and can make better use of his strength.

 

Please stop comparing Rahvin vs Rand to Alivia vs Cyndane. A fight in TAR does not reflect what happens, Egwene would destroy Rand in TAR, so no point in talking about that.

No, we will talk about what we damn well please. And the Rand/Rahvin fight, all of it, T'a'r and not, demonstrates that it is possible to defeat an opponent of greater strength with greater skill. Which you just admitted.

 

Where does it ever say that Rahvin faced his opponent?

It doesn't. Nor does it say he immediately fled. All we know is that they started off in the throne room and at some point Rahvin fled. That is all. Did he just run without any sort of fight? Did he counter with anything and then make good his escape? It is not stated either way. All we know is that once he did flee, he turned it into a running battle, which removed Rand's strength advantage. So we know there are ways of doing it. And we know Cyndane used one of them. This does not, in any way, support you. Quite the reverse. What was the strength difference between Rand and Rahvin by the way? How much stronger did the little fat man make him? And yet he lost, or would have done if not for Nynaeve.

If Cyndane had resorted to balefire, then there's a high probability that Alivia would have been dead.

Oh, I quite agree. In much the same way as if Rahvin or Moghedien ever, at any point, resorted to balefire, it is almost certain that their opponent would be dead. I'll leave it a minute for that to sink in........

 

Don't you agree balefire is something they use as a last resort?

Was it last resort in Ebou Dar?

[Nightstrike]

You fail to address that situation

I know you're one of those guys that question everything and buy nothing, but I feel I have already addressed enough.

Which is why you'll lose this debate. You cannot answer my questions. Your theory lies in tatters, with nothing to support it. But never mind, you've addressed enough.

I can't help that you won't see reason.

 

 

 

You're arguing for an absurd situation where strength matters none whatsoever.

No, I'm not. I am saying, quite clearly, no matter how much you misrepresent my statements, that if we do not know about the relationship between strength and cutting weaves, we cannot draw reliable conclusions.

Why would Careane/Vandene be expected to shield someone holding saidar, if that someone can cut their weaves quite easily. You've been arguing that someone 1/3 as strong can cut the weaves of another. Careane/Vandene are very weak. The BA sister they were gonna shield would've been far above 1/3 the strength of them linked.

 

 

Only the skill to cut weaves matters.

No.

If someone 1/3 the strength can burn the other one's arm to the bone and walk away to tell the tale, then strength truly doesn't matter at all. Elayne & Egwene were both "more than a match" for Liandrin in shear OP strength, but how were they supposed to counter the BA sister if strength doesn't matter. The BA sister could just cut their weaves. Siuan must be totally irresponsibly and, quite frankly, badly fitted to be the Amyrlin Seat. Good thing she was deposed, then.

 

 

 

That is so absurd that I don't know what to answer.

Your absurdity, not mine.

?

 

 

No need to form circles then, I would say.

Why would you say something as silly as that?

Strength does not have such an advantage when someone 1/3 as strong could cut all the weaves. As simple as that. Doesn't take any great effort to figure out. I agree, it is very silly. But if you're right, then why wouldn't I say something as silly as that?

 

 

 

 

 

And yet they have done so (the cleansing for instance).

)Yes. What's your point?

My point is pretty obvious. They are forming circles, even though strength doesn't matter. One that is much weaker can cut the weaves of another. Strength doesn't matter, but numbers do. I can't spell it out any clearer than that.

 

 

One of my arguments is based on a circle of 2 (Careane&Vandene).

So what?

So how could they be expected to shield someone that could easily cut their weaves?

 

 

And Rahvin should have defeated Rand in the throneroom.

How? Rand can cut Rahvin's weaves as well. If cutting weaves was all that mattered, it would be a stalemate. Until one weave got through.

Rand admits that Rahvin is more knowledgeable and skilled than himself. That would give Rahvin a clear advantage. Instead we see evidence that clearly tells us Rand has the advantage (at least before tar - but in tar the OP difference can be countered by other means).

 

 

 

But instead he resorted to balefire, ran, hid and escaped into Tar (where the One Power can be countered with control over the dreamworld).

Again, so what?

Again, my points were self evident. I can't spell it out any clearer for you. I'm very sorry I can't simplify it any further for you.

 

 

 

Weren't some of the Forsaken planning to link and use Sammael as bait?

Yes they were. I still fail to see the relevance.

I thought I had explained that already. Let me say it one more time. WHY WOULD THEY LINK? They are much more skilled than him, and each of them are much more than 1/3 of his strength. If you're right, then they don't need to link. In fact, it would be stupid of them to even consider it.

 

 

 

If they were that much more knowledgeable and skilled (and close to his own strength, which hardly even matters according to you).

I never said that. They would be, linked, more knowlegeable, more skilled, and stronger. Far better able to counter anything he did and cut him off from the Source.

They don't need to be any "better able to counter anything he did". They can kick his ass without breaking a sweat. Why would any of them give over control to another Forsaken if there is no need whatsoever to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What if you made it a massive guy who knows how to throw a punch, and a smaller guy who is an MMA fighter? The big guy wins if he can land one solid blow. The smaller guy isn't going to make it easy for him to land it. Attack in a way that favours your skill set, and doesn't allow the other guy to make best use of his strength advantage and you can win. Ground and pound. Or take him down and put him in an arm bar. Or similar. Difficult? Yes. Doable? Certainly.

That comparison would be flawed because human legs are stronger than human arms. The Cyndane/Alivia fight is fought with their OP muscles - and those muscles are the same strength whether you are more skilled or less skilled (no arms/legs difference). MMA fighters use their legs to kick with, but a boxer only uses the arms to punch with. A leg is about twice the strength of an arm.

That would be irrelevant to the analogy. The big man is stronger, but the smaller guy is better trained, and can make better use of his strength.

Are you telling me that you don't see the difference? I explained it pretty clearly in my post. The One Power muscles are the same whether you're skilled or not. No sudden strength increase if you're more skilled. It's different with the MMM fighter/boxer analogy. The comparison is flawed, since legs are stronger than arms. I can't explain it any clearer than that. Sorry I can't help you this time either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[General Cauthon]

Rand used balefire on several occasions, but did he necessarily panic at the time? Rahvin had tried plenty of other weaves without being sucessfull, perhaps he decided to try balefire. Had balefire=panic, wouldn't Rahvin have used in the throneroom before running? Or do you suggest that Rahvin panicked halfway through his fight with Rand?

 

Rand was in a rage because Aviendha & Mat were killed by Rahvin. Rahvin used balefire first:..."So much for the Forsaken fearing to use balefire.".

 

My point was that Rahvin using balefire doesn't mean he panicked.

 

And no, I'm not suggesting Rahvin used anything else in the throneroom. I'm suggesting he ran instead of facing Rand in the throneroom.  Don't you agree balefire is something they use as a last resort?

 

I agree with all of this, what I had a problem with was that you presented this as a fact. I believe Rahvin fled immediatly as well, there's no way to know.

 

If someone 1/3 the strength can burn the other one's arm to the bone and walk away to tell the tale, then strength truly don't matter at all. Elayne & Egwene were both "more than a match" for Liandrin in shear OP strength, but how were they supposed to counter the BA sister if strength don't matter. The BA sister could just cut their weaves. Siuan must be totally irresponsibly and, quite frankly, badly fitted to be the Amyrlin Seat. Good thing she was deposed, then.

 

So if Egwene sent 14 balls of fire against Liandrin, and Liandrin only managed to cut 4 of them, what would the result be? I don't think Strenght is the most important when attempting to cut a weave, but how fast you're able to cut the weave. My guess is that Cyndane is faster then Alivia, and besides, Alivia wouldn't see the weave, making it harder to cut the weave. That's how Cyndane could've gotten away.

 

Strength does not have such an advantage when someone 1/3 as strong could cut all the weaves. As simple as that. Doesn't take any great effort to figure out. I agree, it is very silly. But if you're right, then why wouldn't I say something as silly as that?

 

The "1/3 as strong" would have the skills necessary to cut the weaves as well, which Cyndane obviously has. Probably Alivia as well, since she has been practising for 400 years.

 

But do you remember when Nynaeve trained with Talaan? The were equal in strenght, but Talaan was quicker then Nynaeve, and defeated her several times. Proof that strenght does not dictate the winner in a fight.

 

I thought I had explained that already. Let me say it one more time. WHY WOULD THEY LINK? They are much more skilled than him, and each of them are much more than 1/3 of his strength. If you're right, then they don't need to link. In fact, it would be stupid of them to even consider it.

 

They don't need to be any "better able to counter anything he did". They can kick his ass without breaking a sweat. Why would any of them give over control to another Forsaken if there is no need whatsoever to do so.

 

Are you kidding? Do you not understand, or is it just that you don't want to understand?

 

Are you telling me that you don't see the difference? I explained it pretty clearly in my post. The One Power muscles are the same whether you're skilled or not. No sudden strength increase if you're more skilled. It's different with the MMM fighter/boxer analogy. The comparison is flawed, since legs are stronger than arms. I can't explain it any clearer than that. Sorry I can't help you this time either.

 

Are you saying the boxer doesn't have strong legs? I bet a boxer have stronger arms and legs, but he's not skilled enough to take advange of the strenght in his legs.

[Nightstrike]

But do you remember when Nynaeve trained with Talaan? The were equal in strenght, but Talaan was quicker then Nynaeve, and defeated her several times. Proof that strenght does not dictate the winner in a fight.

Yes, that's true. But they were equal in strength, so the result would have been different if one of them had a strong angreal.

 

 

I thought I had explained that already. Let me say it one more time. WHY WOULD THEY LINK? They are much more skilled than him, and each of them are much more than 1/3 of his strength. If you're right, then they don't need to link. In fact, it would be stupid of them to even consider it.

 

They don't need to be any "better able to counter anything he did". They can kick his ass without breaking a sweat. Why would any of them give over control to another Forsaken if there is no need whatsoever to do so.

 

Are you kidding? Do you not understand, or is it just that you don't want to understand?

I understand why they would need to link. I just tried to go along with Mr Ares ideas and test those against the actions of those in the books. We have a contradiction between Mr Ares ideas and the text, and that was what I was trying to show. If Mr Ares had been right, then they wouldn't need to form a circle. Three could cut his weaves whilst the fourth knocks him unconscious. No need to consider giving up control to another Forsaken. We know they don't trust each other, so they would not do that unless they absolutely had to.

 

 

 

Are you telling me that you don't see the difference? I explained it pretty clearly in my post. The One Power muscles are the same whether you're skilled or not. No sudden strength increase if you're more skilled. It's different with the MMM fighter/boxer analogy. The comparison is flawed, since legs are stronger than arms. I can't explain it any clearer than that. Sorry I can't help you this time either.

 

Are you saying the boxer doesn't have strong legs? I bet a boxer have stronger arms and legs, but he's not skilled enough to take advange of the strenght in his legs.

No, I'm saying that we don't have that kind of strength difference built in between an unskilled channeler and a skilled one. MMA fighters kick with their legs and boxers punch with their arms. And legs are about twice the strength of an arm. One person that couldn't succeed in punching another unconscious might be able to kick the other one unconscious. So the boxer/MMA analogy doesn't fit well with channeler's strength/skill. The One Power muscles are the same strength whether you're skilled or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I can't help that you won't see reason.

I see it quite clearly. But it's not you that's showing it to me.

 

Why would Careane/Vandene be expected to shield someone holding saidar, if that someone can cut their weaves quite easily?

They can cut that persons weaves as well. You fail to address the issue. Above what point does it become impossible to cut someones weave? What evidence do you have? What evidence do you have about the difference in strength? And do the BA Sisters know how?

 

Only the skill to cut weaves matters.

No.

If someone 1/3 the strength can burn the other one's arm to the bone and walk away to tell the tale, then strength truly don't matter at all.

Yes, it does. And you still are unable to provide any evidence to support your position. All you can do now is misrepresent mine. We know Alivia was stronger. We do not know how much stronger. We know she was injured by Cyndane, but that Cyndane failed to achieve her objective. That is it. Hell, this doesn't seem to be getting through, so I will repeat that with really big letters: We know Alivia was stronger. We do not know how much stronger. We know she was injured by Cyndane, but that Cyndane failed to achieve her objective. That is it. If we do not know how much stronger, then you have no basis for your argument. We do not know if she just walked away. She lost, remember. She injured her opponent, but she still lost. She knows how to cut weaves, and cut the weaves of someone stronger than her (this is undeniable fact), but that does not support your absurd claim that knowing how to cut weaves is all that matters. Because she still lost, she was still driven off, despite knowing how to cut weaves. It is an advantage, but not enough, in and of itself, to guarantee victory. Now, are you actually going to take what I have written on board, or just carry on talking irrelevant rubbish?

 

That is so absurd that I don't know what to answer.

Your absurdity, not mine.

?

The argument is yours, not mine, therefore this argument you call absurd is your own, not mine. Unless you are claiming the rubbish you have written to have anything to do with what I have said, which it doesn't. You, and you alone, are claiming that only the ability to cut weaves is all-important. You say that is absurd, and I agree, you are putting forward an absurd argument. But if you are claiming that said argument is mine, then you're wrong.

 

No need to form circles then, I would say.

Why would you say something as silly as that?

Strength does not have such an advantage when someone 1/3 as strong could cut all the weaves. As simple as that. Doesn't take any great effort to figure out. I agree, it is very silly. But if you're right, then why wouldn't I say something as silly as that?

So at what point does it become impossible to cut weaves? We know Cyndane cut the weaves of someone stronger than her. You fail to address that. Cutting weaves will only get you so far. You can't win by doing that. You can stave off losing, though. Now, anything Alivia wove would be visible to Cyndane, because she can't reverse her weaves. That gives Cyndane a chance to cut it - because she can see it coming. In a game of cricket, or baseball, or similar, simply seeing the ball coming doesn't automatically mean you will hit it, but it gives you a chance you don't have if the pitcher is throwing invisible balls at you. Cyndane can reverse her weaves. She can throw invisible balls. And she won't even be throwing them straight at Alivia, because she can't be hit. So you can't see, and you don't know where it's aimed. That makes it much harder to counter. A distinct advantage. But if Alivia did something unexpected, put Cyndane on the defensive, and launched more weaves at her than she could cut, or they went too fast, or she started using indirect attacks, it becomes much harder. The advantages of being stronger hold true no matter if your opponent can cut weaves. If it is an advantage with, it is an advantage without. This ability doesn't change that. And it won't, no matter how much rubbish you talk about it being all that matters. The reasons for linking are the same, whether or not weaves can be cut. If it makes no sense with, it makes no sense without. If you do not think much of the plan to link, why does the ability to cut weaves change it? If there is a limit beyond which you cannot cut someones weave, because they are just too strong for you, where does this limit lie? What evidence do you have for its existence? What evidence do you have for the difference in strength between Alivia and Cyndane, beside Alivia being stronger in the encounter? If you cannot answer these questions, I'm not sure what point there is in you continuing. That said, I'm not sure what point there is in you continuing anyway. You have already lost, after all. This is just getting you to admit defeat.

 

That would be irrelevant to the analogy. The big man is stronger, but the smaller guy is better trained, and can make better use of his strength.

Are you telling me that you don't see the difference?

I'm saying I don't see the relevance, largely because there isn't any. It doesn't matter whether or not arms are stronger than legs. The big man is stronger, but the MMA guy is better trained. That is all that is important. Whether or not kicking is involved, that holds true. The big guy wins if he lands one solid blow. But the other guy has any number of ways of winning, all he needs to do is make sure that the big guy doesn't land his one solid blow. In much the same way as men are stronger in the OP than women, in WoT, but women are more dextrous in their weaving. The result may be the same, but achieved by force in one case, and finesse in the other. The same with Cyndane/Alivia (how many times must I explain before it sinks in, I wonder). Alivia is stronger, this is fact. Cyndane is more skilled, this is also fact. In their encounter, Cyndane was able to use her greater skill to survive an encounter with someone stronger, but less skilled, than her. This is fact. She didn't win. She could have, but she didn't. The MMA guy could win. He might not. He might make a mistake and the big guy knocks him out with one punch. It is really that simple. Neither skill nor strength is enough, in and of itself, to guanrantee victory.

I can't explain it any clearer than that.

That is the problem with your argument. You can't explain. All you can do is say over and over and over that it must be so, in the face of reason after reason to say that there is no reason why it must be so, no matter how much you say it. You spout irrelevant rubbish as if it had some relevance, and are incapable of explaining what that relevance is. You fail to comprehend a simple analogy, and try to muddy the waters by claiming that arms are stronger than legs as if this was a point. Might as well try and point out that one has a better sense of smell than the other. True it may be, but it matters not to the issue at hand. Now, answer the damn questions. I want evidence from you this time. If you can't provide any evidence to back up your claims, they are worthless.

 

We have a contradiction between Mr Ares ideas and the text, and that was what I was trying to show.

No, we don't. We have a contradiction between what you say and what the books say, though - we saw Cyndane cut one of Alivia's weaves. Even though Alivia is stronger. So it is fact that you can cut the weaves of someone stronger than you. The reasons for linking hold true regardless of whether or not you can cut the weaves of someone stronger than you., although we know, for a fact, that you can. So my position on this is supported by facts. Yours is supported by your say so.

[Tyrell]

Someone mentioned that Alivia knew more destructive weaves than anyone else? So what. She knows how to blow stuff up, not duel with the one power - there's a huge difference between blowing soldiers up en masse on a field of battle and dueling with the power.

 

If someone 1/3 the strength can burn the other one's arm to the bone and walk away to tell the tale, then strength truly don't matter at all. Elayne & Egwene were both "more than a match" for Liandrin in shear OP strength, but how were they supposed to counter the BA sister if strength don't matter. The BA sister could just cut their weaves. Siuan must be totally irresponsibly and, quite frankly, badly fitted to be the Amyrlin Seat. Good thing she was deposed, then.

 

So if Egwene sent 14 balls of fire against Liandrin, and Liandrin only managed to cut 4 of them, what would the result be? I don't think Strenght is the most important when attempting to cut a weave, but how fast you're able to cut the weave. My guess is that Cyndane is faster then Alivia, and besides, Alivia wouldn't see the weave, making it harder to cut the weave. That's how Cyndane could've gotten away.

 

I agree with Cauthon here, strength does make a difference, but it depends on how you look at it, some people seem to be looking from a pure brute force, one huge fireball point of view. Don't forget that for each weave you need to cut then you need to weave something to cut it and that your strength determines how many weaves you can weave / hold on to at once. Egwene's example in KoD seems to indicate that its a channeler's 'base strength' that determines how many weaves one can maintain, rather than the amount of power they can currently get a hold of (eg. by being drugged to lessen that amount, or using an angreal to increase it) which would mean that while Alivia would be able to hold on to a few more weaves than Cyndane, her angreal wouldn't give her a huge advantage on the cutting front (though we've no evidence that Alivia even knows how to cut a weave, as I've said she knows how to blow people up, not duel with the power).

 

So what we know is that Alivia could put a lot more power into her weaves, meaning bigger fireballs and more spectacular effects, it is also likely she could handle more weaves than Cyndane. Cyndane, on the other hand can make her weaves invisible and is certainly skilled in channeler vs channeler fighting, having survived both the war of power and the Chosen power struggles. Does this indicate that Alivia should crush Cyndane within seconds? I don't think so, perhaps you do.

 

Edit : I saw there was a new post by nightstrike following this one, with the little new post thingie in the General Wheel Of Time Discussion subforum, but it seems to have gone AWOL?

[Nightstrike]

Why was the Cyndane/Alivia fight any different from the Moghedien/Nynaeve fight?

Because Nynaeve/Moghedien degenerated quickly into a pure test of strength, in which they were both equally matched. Given that neither had any strength left over for an assault, given they were both fully committed, skill became an irrelevance. What decided it was not inequality in knowledge or strength with the Power, but Ny throwing something. With her hands. Cyndane/Alivia, on the other hand, was not a test of pure strength. If it was, Cyndane would have lost. That is undeniable. If they had squared off, with Cyndane putting all her strength into stopping Alivia, Alivia could have added more strength and overcome her. But Cyn was able to use her greater skill, her greater knowledge of the Power, to keep her off balance, and survive.

Sorry Mr Ares, but I don't buy that. You haven't given a convincing argument here. Why wouldn't the Alivia/Cyndane fight have "degenerated" the same way? The initial blows by Cyndane melted, which gave Alivia the chance to throw all her strength at Cyndane. If Nynaeve would have had an angreal, Moghedien would have been toast.

 

 

[Tyrell]

Sorry Mr Ares, but I don't buy that. You haven't given a convincing argument here. Why wouldn't the Alivia/Cyndane fight have "degenerated" the same way? The initial blows by Cyndane melted, which gave Alivia the chance to throw all her strength at Cyndane. If Nynaeve would have had an angreal, Moghedien would have been toast.

 

Well, for a start the Nynaeve-Moghedien fight was a special case in that they were both trying to sever/shield one another, it was a battle of their pure strength, one power arm-wrestling as it were. Nothing we've read in the books suggest that any other sort of one power duel is fought this way.

 

Second there is no evidence that Alivia knows how to make a shield, and circumstantial evidence to suggest that she wouldn't - the Seanchan collar all their female sparkers before they're able to fight back, and kill all their make channelers out of hand.

[Thor]

No, we will talk about what we damn well please. And the Rand/Rahvin fight, all of it, T'a'r and not, demonstrates that it is possible to defeat an opponent of greater strength with greater skill. Which you just admitted.

 

This is by far the most idiotic thing I have read on these forum boards.

A fight in TAR has bugger all to do with channeling whatsoever.  Comparing Rahvin/Rand fight to Cyndanne/Alivia fight is not only ilogical, it is completely obscene.

[Nightstrike]

Well, for a start the Nynaeve-Moghedien fight was a special case in that they were both trying to sever/shield one another, it was a battle of their pure strength, one power arm-wrestling as it were. Nothing we've read in the books suggest that any other sort of one power duel is fought this way.

So you say, but where's the evidence? And if that's such a bad idea, then why didn't Moghedien do something else instead? Needless to say, I happen to disagree with you.

 

Second there is no evidence that Alivia knows how to make a shield, and circumstantial evidence to suggest that she wouldn't - the Seanchan collar all their female sparkers before they're able to fight back, and kill all their make channelers out of hand.

On the contrary, we have circumstantial evidence to suggest they do know how to shield a channeler. They don't want to kill damane fighting on the "wrong" side, and they don't wanna have to kill marath'damane. The first Aes Sedai collared were likely to know how to shield someone. And they've fought wars with the Power ever since.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[purplemonster]

Throwin it out there Alivia is one of the most powerful channerlers known even by aes sedai standards much stronger than nyn, the only two possible that come close are that old lady whom i don't feel like checking her name and possibly lanfear

[Nightstrike]

So at what point does it become impossible to cut weaves? We know Cyndane cut the weaves of someone stronger than her. You fail to address that. Cutting weaves will only get you so far. You can't win by doing that. You can stave off losing, though. Now, anything Alivia wove would be visible to Cyndane, because she can't reverse her weaves. That gives Cyndane a chance to cut it - because she can see it coming. In a game of cricket, or baseball, or similar, simply seeing the ball coming doesn't automatically mean you will hit it, but it gives you a chance you don't have if the pitcher is throwing invisible balls at you. Cyndane can reverse her weaves. She can throw invisible balls. And she won't even be throwing them straight at Alivia, because she can't be hit. So you can't see, and you don't know where it's aimed. That makes it much harder to counter. A distinct advantage. But if Alivia did something unexpected, put Cyndane on the defensive, and launched more weaves at her than she could cut, or they went too fast, or she started using indirect attacks, it becomes much harder. The advantages of being stronger hold true no matter if your opponent can cut weaves. If it is an advantage with, it is an advantage without. This ability doesn't change that. And it won't, no matter how much rubbish you talk about it being all that matters. The reasons for linking are the same, whether or not weaves can be cut. If it makes no sense with, it makes no sense without. If you do not think much of the plan to link, why does the ability to cut weaves change it? If there is a limit beyond which you cannot cut someones weave, because they are just too strong for you, where does this limit lie? What evidence do you have for its existence? What evidence do you have for the difference in strength between Alivia and Cyndane, beside Alivia being stronger in the encounter?

 

 

So it is fact that you can cut the weaves of someone stronger than you. The reasons for linking hold true regardless of whether or not you can cut the weaves of someone stronger than you., although we know, for a fact, that you can. So my position on this is supported by facts. Yours is supported by your say so.

 

OK, they were gonna use Sammael as bait, and link to overcome Rand. Rand with angreal=somewhere between 200 and 260 in strength. Four Forsaken, each at 80-95 in strength. Linked they are between 290 and 360 in strength. But if they can cut the weaves of someone 3 times stronger, then there's no need to link. They can overcome Rand even if they DO NOT link. The Forsaken don't trust each other, and wouldn't link if they didn't have to do so. We must assume that there's a very good reason for linking, othewise they wouldn't even consider it. Do you see my point now?

 

Oh, and by the way, I've never tried to claim that someone weaker can't cut the weaves of someone stronger.

 

 

 

 

[Tyrell]

OK, they were gonna use Sammael as bait, and link to overcome Rand. Rand with angreal=somewhere between 200 and 260 in strength. Four Forsaken, each at 80-95 in strength. Linked they are between 290 and 360 in strength. But if they can cut the weaves of someone 3 times stronger, then there's no need to link. They can overcome Rand even if they DO NOT link. The Forsaken don't trust each other, and wouldn't link if they didn't have to do so. We must assume that there's a very good reason for linking, othewise they wouldn't even consider it. Do you see my point now?

 

Might that very good reason be that they wanted to shield him and deliver him to their master? It is very difficult to shield someone already holding the power, and with his Angreal he'd be able to hold a lot (see Verin's shield bouncing off Graendal with her Angreal) so they would need to be that much stronger in order to nail him.

[Nightstrike]

Might that very good reason be that they wanted to shield him and deliver him to their master? It is very difficult to shield someone already holding the power, and with his Angreal he'd be able to hold a lot (see Verin's shield bouncing off Graendal with her Angreal) so they would need to be that much stronger in order to nail him.

Why would they risk giving up control to another Forsaken, when they could deliver him to their master anyway. Three to cut his weaves and the fourth knocks him unconscious. Piece of cake. And much lesser risk for themselves. Oh, and by the way, wouldn't they have to be at least twice his strength to be sure to shield him when he holds saidin? They would be less than that for sure. And yet they planned to link - which means you can't cut the weaves of someone 3 times your own strength. Which in turn means Alivia with *angreal was less than 3 times Cyndane's strength.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tyrell]

That's fallacious logic there if ever I saw it.

[Mr Ares]

Why wouldn't the Alivia/Cyndane fight have "degenerated" the same way?

Because, for one thing, Cyndane had a bloody good reason not to let it - if it did, she couldn't win. Also, Cyndane couldn't shield Alivia, given that you have to be stronger in order to cut someone already holding the Source off, therefore Cyndane has no reason to react in the same way Moghedien did, coupled with the fact we don't know if Alivia knows how to shield someone.

 

No, we will talk about what we damn well please. And the Rand/Rahvin fight, all of it, T'a'r and not, demonstrates that it is possible to defeat an opponent of greater strength with greater skill. Which you just admitted.

This is by far the most idiotic thing I have read on these forum boards.

Firstly, it would appear, then, that you have not read mb's thread on whether or not the world, in WoT, is round or flat. Secondly, Every part of what I said is correct. How does being completely correct in everything I said qualify those statements for "most idiotic thing" on the forums? Seems a little illogical.

A fight in TAR has bugger all to do with channeling whatsoever.

Except when the Power is used, as it was in the fight in question. Are you really trying to tell me that a fight in which channeling is used has "bugger all to do with channeling whatsoever"? Really, Thor, if you hoping to take back the crown for most idiotic thing ever said on the board, you couldn't have done better.

Comparing Rahvin/Rand fight to Cyndane/Alivia fight is not only ilogical, it is completely obscene.

Obscene? How do you come to that conclusion? And definition?

 

Well, for a start the Nynaeve-Moghedien fight was a special case in that they were both trying to sever/shield one another, it was a battle of their pure strength, one power arm-wrestling as it were. Nothing we've read in the books suggest that any other sort of one power duel is fought this way.

So you say, but where's the evidence?

In the books. Nynaeve/Moghedien can be found towards the end of TSR, other fights in other places. Do you know of any others fought in the same way as that fight?

And if that's such a bad idea, then why didn't Moghedien do something else instead?

How much experience of OP duels does Moggy have?

 

OK, they were gonna use Sammael as bait, and link to overcome Rand. Rand with angreal=somewhere between 200 and 260 in strength. Four Forsaken, each at 80-95 in strength. Linked they are between 290 and 360 in strength. But if they can cut the weaves of someone 3 times stronger, then there's no need to link. They can overcome Rand even if they DO NOT link. The Forsaken don't trust each other, and wouldn't link if they didn't have to do so. We must assume that there's a very good reason for linking, othewise they wouldn't even consider it. Do you see my point now?

 

Oh, and by the way, I've never tried to claim that someone weaker can't cut the weaves of someone stronger.

You still fail to answer my questions. You admit that it is possible to cut the weaves of someone stronger than you. That's good. But you still insist that there must be a point beyond which the other person is so strong you cannot cut their weaves, which you provide no evidence to support, largely because you made it up, and not only that you place this imaginary line in a wholly arbitrary place, which just so happens, by some miracle, to support you! Hallelujah! If only the rest of us could be so free with making up evidence to support our points. "The body swap can't happen, because you can't put the soul of a red-head in another body. No other body would accept a ginger soul." Fantastic way of going about debate. Now, your point about cutting weaves. It's not a point at all. So because they could cut all Rand's weaves, they would win? You can't win a fight just by cutting weaves. Take a look at the Rand/Lanfear fight from FoH. She repeatedly tries to cut him off, he repeatedly cuts her flows. But that's not enough for him to win. If the three didn't link, Rand would be stronger. Stronger than any given one of them, and Rand has a habit of defeating them when they face him alone. What if he brought Callandor to the fight? Or even just the fat man? Regardless of any ability to cut weaves, the rationale for linking holds true. The example you give is ridiculous. Three of them cut his weaves? One can do that. One to knock him unconcious? How, while still making sure you don't accidentally kill him, damage him beyond their capacity to Heal him, just hit him hard enough to piss him off? Why not reduce the risk of damage to him? Why not have the three linked Chosen cut him off, while anything he tries is countered by Sammael? Without the link, none of them is strong enough to shield him, or not without giving him the chance to counter. And what if he runs? A running battle is not what they want. If he does run, they can't split up, that defeats the object of the exercise. If they split up, he can beat them one by one.

 

Oh, and by the way, wouldn't they have to be at least twice his strength to be sure to shield him when he holds saidin? They would be less than that for sure. And yet they planned to link - which means you can't cut the weaves of someone 3 times your own strength. Which in turn means Alivia with *angreal was less than 3 times Cyndane's strength.

I'm not sure how the fact that you need to be twice as strong in order to shield someone is a valid argument for why they should not link, when linking would make them into one super-strong channeler, and might give them the necessary strength, while not linking would make them four individuals, not one of whom is strong enough to shield him. Perhaps you could explain that? It seems to me that that is a good reason for them to link. I'm also not sure how this supports your argument. Nor am I sure why you keep trying to make out that being able to cut weaves is some sort of guaranteed victory. I've already pointed out that it isn't. Whether or not Rand could cut the weaves of someone three times his strength, the rationale for linking holds. It is the same whether or not he can. "Let's link, because then we get indestructible weaves"? No.

[General Cauthon]

This is by far the most idiotic thing I have read on these forum boards.

A fight in TAR has bugger all to do with channeling whatsoever.  Comparing Rahvin/Rand fight to Cyndanne/Alivia fight is not only ilogical, it is completely obscene.

 

Rahvin fought Rand atleast several minutes before fleeing to TAR. If Rahvin survived that long, why couldn't Cyndane do the same against Alivia? That Rahvin eventually fled to TAR doesn't change the fact that he had no problem surviving Rand long enough to get away.

 

On the contrary, we have circumstantial evidence to suggest they do know how to shield a channeler. They don't want to kill damane fighting on the "wrong" side, and they don't wanna have to kill marath'damane. The first Aes Sedai collared were likely to know how to shield someone. And they've fought wars with the Power ever since.

 

But do you think Alivia would choose to shield someone, and not just kill everyone she perceived as a threat to Rand? I don't. I doubt she even considered it.

 

Well, for a start the Nynaeve-Moghedien fight was a special case in that they were both trying to sever/shield one another, it was a battle of their pure strength, one power arm-wrestling as it were. Nothing we've read in the books suggest that any other sort of one power duel is fought this way.

So you say, but where's the evidence? And if that's such a bad idea, then why didn't Moghedien do something else instead? Needless to say, I happen to disagree with you.

 

It was Nynaeve that started the "arm-wrestling". Moghedien was just fast enough to stop Nynaeve, but not strong enough to throw it off. So she tried to sever Nynaeve before she could react. Unfortunately for Moghedien, Nynaeve managed to stop her, which resulted in a stale-mate.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

You admit that it is possible to cut the weaves of someone stronger than you. That's good.

When have I ever said anything else? Why do you keep bringing that up, as if I actually did say anything like that. Why? What is the purpose of this - are you trying to avoid the real subject?

 

 

 

 

 

But you still insist that there must be a point beyond which the other person is so strong you cannot cut their weaves, which you provide no evidence to support, largely because you made it up, and not only that you place this imaginary line in a wholly arbitrary place, which just so happens, by some miracle, to support you! Hallelujah! If only the rest of us could be so free with making up evidence to support our points. "The body swap can't happen, because you can't put the soul of a red-head in another body. No other body would accept a ginger soul." Fantastic way of going about debate. Now, your point about cutting weaves. It's not a point at all. So because they could cut all Rand's weaves, they would win? You can't win a fight just by cutting weaves.

Yes, that's exactly what I insist. And I've already provided enough evidence. I even made a little mistake, but to my own disadvantage. They were actually 3 people in the circle that were supposed to take care of Rand al'Thor, and not 4 as I said earlier. I haven't made up any evidence, it's in the books for everyone to read (TFoH, A Silver Arrow). Graendal, Rahvin and Lanfear were gonna wait linked while Sammael act as bait. Rahvin was equally strong as Rand (we get this from Rand himself later on when he hunts down Rahvin in Caemlyn). Lanfear was stronger than Rahvin, and equally skilled as Cyndane. Even if Rand's angreal multiplies strength as much as 3.0 times, Lanfear alone would be able to cut all his weaves, according to your very own (=made up=not in the books) theory. The other three would then be free to use whatever weave they see fit upon him. That is your very own miracle, but not supported by the books. Because the books say THEY WOULD BE WAITING LINKED!!! Are you sensing a contradiction yet (no, you probably never will, but I know I do). On the other hand, what if that angreal multiplies strength more than, say, 3.2 times - what then? Then Rand would be more than (80*3.2=)256 in strength and those three would be less than (90*3*0.95=)256 in strength - and that is with numbers approximated heavily towards your favor (=they wouldn't be that favorable in reality). Even with THOSE approximations, they should be able to cut his weaves (according to you). Rand at 256 is still only 2.84 times their average strengths - cuttable in your opinion. So, still no reason to form a circle. I wouldn't like those (later, "3.2 angreal versus circle") odds at all, if I had been in the Forsaken's place. Especially knowing that any modern Aes Sedai can walk in upon them. Sammael should be in pure panic. If one of them (Lanfear, for instance) can cut all of his weaves while the other three are free to assault him with everything they got, then yes, my point really "is a point at all". Common sense, my friend. Common sense.

 

 

 

Oh, and by the way, wouldn't they have to be at least twice his strength to be sure to shield him when he holds saidin? They would be less than that for sure. And yet they planned to link - which means you can't cut the weaves of someone 3 times your own strength. Which in turn means Alivia with *angreal was less than 3 times Cyndane's strength.

I'm not sure how the fact that you need to be twice as strong in order to shield someone is a valid argument for why they should not link, when linking would make them into one super-strong channeler, and might give them the necessary strength, while not linking would make them four individuals, not one of whom is strong enough to shield him. Perhaps you could explain that? It seems to me that that is a good reason for them to link. I'm also not sure how this supports your argument. Nor am I sure why you keep trying to make out that being able to cut weaves is some sort of guaranteed victory. I've already pointed out that it isn't. Whether or not Rand could cut the weaves of someone three times his strength, the rationale for linking holds. It is the same whether or not he can. "Let's link, because then we get indestructible weaves"? No.

Wow, you really didn't understand much of what I really said. I WAS NOT suggesting they "should link, because they get indestructible weaves". I said that there was no reason to link in the first place, since there are at least 2 among them (Rahvin and Lanfear) that are equally strong or stronger than Rand  was at the time. And that, according to your made up theory, those 2 should be able to cut all of his weaves.

 

The circle of 3 would not be strong enough for being certain of shielding Rand, so that argument for why they should link is not a very solid one, IMO. Their circle is no more than 256 and he is no less than 200 (with the angreal).

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

You admit that it is possible to cut the weaves of someone stronger than you. That's good.

When have I ever said anything else? Why do you keep bringing that up, as if I actually did say anything like that. Why? What is the purpose of this - are you trying to avoid the real subject?

No, unlike you I continually address the real subject. You simply state over and over that that the strength difference is too great. Yet you cannot support this. You imagine that there comes a point where someone is so much stronger you cannot cut their flows, then you imagine that that point is exactly where you want it to be, where it supports you (or so you think), and "disproves" me. Problem is, we know, for a fact, you can cut the weaves of someone stronger, but that is it. We do not know if there is a point beyond which weaves are too difficult to cut, if such a point exists we do not know where it is. But all you can say is that if she was that much stronger she would be too strong. Wholly imaginary. Also, I make no argument as to how much stronger she is - this "3 times" her strength is not my argument. She certainly could be, but we do not know how strong she was in comparison to Cyndane during her fight, nor do we know how much strength the angreal gives. We do not know whther she was 2.5 times, or 3 times, or 2.8 times her strength, or anything else. If we set the wholly arbitrary limit of possible strength difference in the fight at three times, then you still must conjure an argument out of thin air to defeat it. "You can't cut weaves if someone is that much stronger", says you. Yet there is no evidence to support you. That is the point, no matter how much you squirm. You accept that you can cut the weaves of someone stronger, so you embrace part of my argument, but you do not go all the way. You do not embrace the rest. You do not accept that there is no more evidence than that.

 

But you still insist that there must be a point beyond which the other person is so strong you cannot cut their weaves, which you provide no evidence to support, largely because you made it up, and not only that you place this imaginary line in a wholly arbitrary place, which just so happens, by some miracle, to support you! Hallelujah! If only the rest of us could be so free with making up evidence to support our points. "The body swap can't happen, because you can't put the soul of a red-head in another body. No other body would accept a ginger soul." Fantastic way of going about debate. Now, your point about cutting weaves. It's not a point at all. So because they could cut all Rand's weaves, they would win? You can't win a fight just by cutting weaves.

Yes, that's exactly what I insist.

Glad you admit to making up evidence and sticking imaginary lines in arbitrary places as if this could prove your point.

And I've already provided enough evidence.

None is not enough.

I haven't made up any evidence, it's in the books for everyone to read (TFoH, A Silver Arrow). Graendal, Rahvin and Lanfear were gonna wait linked while Sammael act as bait. Rahvin was equally strong as Rand (we get this from Rand himself later on when he hunts down Rahvin in Caemlyn).

We get perhaps as strong as Rand. Not equally as strong.

Lanfear was stronger than Rahvin, and equally skilled as Cyndane. Even if Rand's angreal multiplies strength as much as 3.0 times, Lanfear alone would be able to cut all his weaves, according to your very own (=made up=not in the books) theory.

My theory is that there is nothing in the books to support you. If this is wrong, why can you not provide anything to support you? The same disproven points is all you have. Every page of the books which doesn't support the existence of your imaginary lines in arbitrary places is a page of the books which support my point that there is. No. Evidence. And, so far, that appears to be every page. Every single one of those thousands of pages, by virtue of containing not one line to support you, supports me. And one line might be all you need to prove me wrong, but try as you might you cannot provide it. Every word RJ has wrtten supports me. Every word. And it would only take one the contrary but it is just not there. See, if you need to be stronger to shield someone holding the Source, then without a link they would not be stronger, or not sufficiently stronger, maybe even for unaided Rand. By linking, they become one. One that might be strong enough. But only if they link. Cutting weaves is a non-issue in this. They link and they come as one channeler strong enough to beat him. Or they don't link and they come as four, none of them is necessarily that strong. If he can cut their weaves linked, he can certainly do so unlinked. But they need to face him as one. If they want to cut him off, they need to do so as one. That was the plan. By not linking, they are not acting as one. For all your pitiful imaginings, this does not support you. This case supports me. Rahvin isn't strong enough to shield him if he's holding the Source, nor is Graendal, nor Lanfear in all probability. Not one of them can do it alone. But, linked, maybe they could. Even if Rand can cut weaves, they cannot do it alone, they can united as one. That is the heart of the plan, and whether or not Rand can cut their weaves, or them his, is immaterial. You cannot win purely by cutting weaves. So the fact that either of them could cut them is meaningless. If they act alone, they cannot shield him, whether or not they can cut each others weaves. If they link, then whether or not they can cut each others weaves, they at least have a chance of being able to shield him now. No miracles required from me, but plenty required from you and your imaginary evidence.

Are you sensing a contradiction yet (no, you probably never will, but I know I do).

You're right, I do not sense contradictions where there are none. So I sense none here, and remain unlikely to in the future, from my side at least.

then yes, my point really "is a point at all".

Not really.

Common sense, my friend. Common sense.

Not at all.

 

The circle of 3 would not be strong enough for being certain of shielding Rand, so that argument for why they should link is not a very solid one, IMO.

Your opinion on the matter is worth little, your numbers even less. Without the circle they would not be strong enough. With it they might be. Without it they are individuals, and Rand has already shown himself capable of beating individuals. With it they are one, they are united, and Rand has not faced the like. So, given the choice between what cannot shield him and what might, which would you choose? Given the choice between what he has proven he can beat and what he has never faced, what would you choose?

 

Wow, you really didn't understand much of what I really said. I WAS NOT suggesting they "should link, because they get indestructible weaves". I said that there was no reason to link in the first place, since there are at least 2 among them (Rahvin and Lanfear) that are equally strong or stronger than Rand  was at the time. And that, according to your theory, those 2 should be able to cut all of his weaves.

I understood you. They could cut all his weaves, and he could cut all of theirs. Gets neither of them anywhere (I continue to shoot this point down, but you continue to come back to this non-point that cutting weaves is in some way relevant. Either way, weaves can be cut. The only situations where you can guarantee no weaves will be cut is where there is no-one to cut them, or no weaves to be cut. One channeler or none). But if they face him individually, he can cut all their weaves. If they link, they might have sufficient strength advantage to make their own weaves uncuttable by him. Or, the other way around, he will be so strong that they cannot cut his weaves, but he can cut all of theirs. You imagine uncuttable weaves to exist, but there is nothing to support that. Their plan to link does nothing to support you. Come back with some evidence, if you wish to carry on. Or admit defeat, or just slink away. Simly carrying on in this way gets you nowhere. The rationale for linking holds true regardless of whether or not weaves can be cut. Unless you can counter that, you have nothing. Except an endless weave cutting stalemate, with each side cutting the others weave but not actually able to do anything.

[Nightstrike]

My theory is that there is nothing in the books to support you.

No, your theory was that Lanfear/Cyndane can cut the weaves of someone 3 times her own strength. I've already proven you wrong. You just haven't realised it yet - and you never will!

 

Your opinion on the matter is worth little, your numbers even less.

It does not matter how strong the angreal is or what strength Rand is (we know Rahvin=Rand and Lanfear is stronger), your made up theory falls short anyway.

 

Without the circle they would not be strong enough.

Yes! Finally something we can agree on!

 

With it they might be.

The numbers that would take would also mean, according to your made up theory, that they do not need to link. But they thought they needed it. So your made up theory is wrong. To quote you from another thread:..."Veni Vidi Vici".

You're disproven. How about that!

 

 

 

[General Cauthon]

No, your theory was that Lanfear/Cyndane can cut the weaves of someone 3 times her own strength. I've already proven you wrong. You just haven't realised it yet - and you never will!

 

You misunderstand. It's not the strenght of the channeler, it's the strenght of the WEAVE that matters. Let me try to explain. Lets say Lanfear tries to light a candle, and Sorilea tries to light another candle, using the exact same weave. It would not be harder for Rand to cut Lanfears weave, because it's the same weave.

We know that Cyndane cut Alivias 1st weave, but we don't know how much strenght Alivia put behind that weave. Cyndane certainly didn't use much Power trying to kill Alivia at first. The only weave I remember at the moment where one usually use all your strenght in the Power, is a shield. Since Alivia probably never tried to shield Cyndane, we don't know how much strenght matters. If we look at Nynaeve/Moghedien, neither was strong enough to cut the others weaves, but strong enough to hold them. I got the impression that if one had been stronger, she would have been able to cut her opponent's weave.

 

 

 

And trying to prove an argument with math is a waste of time. As said early in this thread, we have no way to know how strong anyone is related to everyone else. All we know is that Rand/LTT and Ishamael/Moridin is the strongest males, and that Lanfear was the strongest female.

 

We know however that it's not necessary to be stronger to win in a fight. We also know that superior skill doesn't mean victory, even when fighting someone of equal strenght.

 

There is so many other factors that decide who wins a fight, that any calculations is bound to be wrong. At best they show who has the advantage, but not who'll end up winning.