Question on Ta'veren

[Guest Dreadlord]

So I was reading an RJ interview about Ta'veren and such-its the one where he confirms that Ta'veren are selected by the Pattern, not born-and a certain line he said made me think. Below is the web address and a quote.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=27

 

The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one.  You aren’t born ta’veren.  Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?

 

The comment in bold strikes me as odd. If you think about it, a Ta'veren gets what he needs when he needs it-we have seen this plenty of times with Rand to know how it works to a point.

 

Think about it like this; a baby Ta'veren is teething, so surely said baby would get what it needs when it needs it, thus making said baby a nice, happy quiet baby. Do you see where I am coming from? Up until now I thought teh Ta'verens emotions and whatnot were irrelevant, but RJs comment made me wonder. Maybe there is a way Ta'veren can affect the way it works? Or maybe emotions DO come into it?

 

I may be reading too much into this, I do that sometimes, but just wanted peoples thoughts. What do you guys and gals think?

[ROB_88]

i know what you mean, the emotions of the ta'veren have never influenced how it works.

 

i think it was just a rare moment where he said to much, to fast

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ive always wondered if there was some way to control the Ta'veren effects, Ive speculated that Rand will somehow tap into it during his confrontation with Shaitan, and rereading that interview made me wonder. I thought maybe RJ didnt think about his response as much as he should but then again its such a complex series I expected it might have meant something

[Luckers]

The comment in bold strikes me as odd. If you think about it, a Ta'veren gets what he needs when he needs it-we have seen this plenty of times with Rand to know how it works to a point.

 

Think about it like this; a baby Ta'veren is teething, so surely said baby would get what it needs when it needs it, thus making said baby a nice, happy quiet baby. Do you see where I am coming from? Up until now I thought teh Ta'verens emotions and whatnot were irrelevant, but RJs comment made me wonder. Maybe there is a way Ta'veren can affect the way it works? Or maybe emotions DO come into it?

 

Firstly, a ta'veren does not get what he needs, precisely--well, he does. But he doesn't.

 

The way ta'verenism works is that in a specific area around him the pattern is loosened. This area is called the ta'maral'ailen. The Web of Destiny. Within that area things become more--elaborate, is probably the best word.

 

Now, the wheel does this specifically in times when the weave of the age is going offcourse. It makes sense too, effectively what its does is loosening up the tension in the weave so that it had the space to redirect the flow of the weave--meaning it can cause more elabroate, if somewhat statistically unlikely things to happen in order that the flow of events returns to what it desires.

 

Which brings us to your question--what happens around a ta'veren is not always directly beneficial to his needs, its rather beneficial to his role within the pattern. Now the Wheel of Time is not concious--it has a certain fuzzy logic (RJ's words), but it is not intelligent. It doesn't sit around pushing or boosting events going "Oh my, it would be most swell if Harine agreed with Rand at this point. Oh yes, that would help things along splendidly".

 

Instead the flow of the weaving is somewhat blind--its in the general direction that would help the ta'veren within the event, but its not specific.

 

Did that make any sense at all? Lol. But no, the point is that ta'veren do not get what they need, they get what the Wheel, in its fuzzy, unconcious way, percieves them to need.

 

So now imagine how the fuzzy semi-intelligent wheel would react to the fuzzy, semi-intelligent needs of a toddler?

[Kaznen]

Also the ta'veren "threads" effect those around them, and those threads effect others through this chain reaction.

 

Do you think Egwene became amyrlin through here own skill?

[Ndshacker]

NO, she was selected by the AS before she even arrived in Salidar, I think Siuan telling them to get their rears in gear. Made them think... *HEY we need a figurehead!* Then Elayne and Nynaeve Arrive, and they think *Hey there was another novice with them* Figure head+Nameless novice= Guidable Amyrlin. Aes sedai need to be guided through everything. ;D

 

 

 

[Fryn]

Whats funny is she was going to be Suian's figurehead, which is why Suian pushed the idea. Suian wanted access to teh reigns of power again. I'm nt sure the AS realized what Suian was doing either.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I have always believed Egwenes annointment was Rands ta'maral'ailen at work. (I can never remember that name! Cheers Luckers) but I still wonder whether there is more meaning in RJs words. Technically a teething toddler would be easy for the Web of Destiny to satisfy is my point, and yes while the Wheel isnt sentient I would think that if it could make Rand pick a Forsaken to accompany him at all times without realising as well as some of the other more bizarre effects, it could easily bring along one person who could deal with the baby's teething problems. The fact that the baby is teething is only one fact of minor importance; the Wheel would surely not put that much weight on the teething problem even in its limited capacity of thought and logic. Rand had Cadsuane drawn to him, I believe, so she can teach him whatever it will be she will teach him, something that will help make him winning TG better than him losing-and if the Wheel can identify something to be that important why cant it deal with something as mundane as teething?

 

Thats why I think RJs words meant more than we think. I suppose I may be reading too far into it, its a habit of mine ever since I started WoT hehe

[42Bonzo88]

    Excellent thread! I came up with something. A lot of times the Taver'en (Rand, Mat, and Perrin) are complaining about being Taver'en more than enjoying themselves with it. Sure, Rand can get Cadusane to come help him, but he sure isn't enjoying her teaching. Mat can use his Taver'enness (?) to help him find the girls in Tear, but he was not happy about going into the stone and what the girls did after he rescued them.

 

    I would think a baby teething would probably land in some insect's lair and get bitten on the mouth for its troubles and while the sting numbs his teeth, he would probably be upset with the pain that will come with it, or the fright of said insect.

[Luckers]

Also the ta'veren "threads" effect those around them, and those threads effect others through this chain reaction.

 

Not in the sense tht the threads around them become just as dramatic--ta'veren effected threads involve events that are not necessarily likely, but possible, and emphasized by the presence of the ta'veren into occuring.

 

Threads around them are reactive. It is not a chain reaction, as such--these threads do not experience the same skewed reality of those directly under the influence of a ta'veren. Now, that being said, they do react to that skewed reality. whilst they themselves are not being directly influenced they do exist within a world with things that are, thus requiring they adapt accordingly.

 

I have always believed Egwenes annointment was Rands ta'maral'ailen at work.

 

No, thats impossible. We gain knowledge of the limits of Rand's ta'maral'ailen in tSR and there is no way he could have effected Salidar from Cairhein. The Aes Sedai definatly included his existence in their thinking when coming to the idea of making Egwene Amyrlin, but he had no direct effect.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Also the ta'veren "threads" effect those around them, and those threads effect others through this chain reaction.

 

Not in the sense tht the threads around them become just as dramatic--ta'veren effected threads involve events that are not necessarily likely, but possible, and emphasized by the presence of the ta'veren into occuring.

 

Threads around them are reactive. It is not a chain reaction, as such--these threads do not experience the same skewed reality of those directly under the influence of a ta'veren. Now, that being said, they do react to that skewed reality. whilst they themselves are not being directly influenced they do exist within a world with things that are, thus requiring they adapt accordingly.

 

I have always believed Egwenes annointment was Rands ta'maral'ailen at work.

 

No, thats impossible. We gain knowledge of the limits of Rand's ta'maral'ailen in tSR and there is no way he could have effected Salidar from Cairhein. The Aes Sedai definatly included his existence in their thinking when coming to the idea of making Egwene Amyrlin, but he had no direct effect.

For some reason, I have this feeling of deja vu.