Mat and Tylin

[RAND AL THOR]

Where would you rate their scenes for sheer amusement? I'd give a 9 out of 10. They are really the most hilarious moments in the WOT.

[Hybrid]

10 out of 10, by virtue of Mat's scenes being my favorite scenes in all of WOT.  Mat's take on things is awesome.  He always has funny little asides to himself, and even when he misinterprets things, it's funny.

[Dreadlady]

Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10. I didn't like Mat being forced to have sex with Tylin.

 

Back when I was a teenager (my age is close to RJs) the idea was that a man "couldn't be raped", because as the active party, he had given consent by partipating. But really, if one visualizes a woman stripped and forced into bed at knife point, there would be no question about what was happening.

[Luckers]

I agree with Dreadlady. Those scenes were troubling at best. Mat was forced--both physically and emotionally--into a sexual relationship. And then was laughed at by Elayne when she finally came to understand the reality of what was occuring.

 

Had that occured in reverse people would be crying out in rage at the abuse--both in the books and as readers--even were it followed out exactly with the 'female Mat' coming to feel some degree of warmth for the 'male Tylin'.

 

Now, from a literary sense i can understand RJ having it play out, but it was not in anyway an amusing scene.

[Paviel]

What Tylin did to Mat was no worse than what Alanna did to Rand.

[mb]

The scenes that I have read so far are somewhat freaky.

 

What Tylin did to Mat was no worse than what Alanna did to Rand.

 

Though Mat's situation I think is less permanent (if that is the right term) than Rand's.

A warder bond lasts until either dies or until the non-warder is severed; unless the non-warder releases (or passes) the bond.

 

[lordofsoup]

it is amusing, the hear what Mat thinks, also when Elayne finds out,  But sick definately sick hes 20 shes 45?

[Paviel]

But sick definately sick hes 20 shes 45?

 

I'm pretty sure that at some point Nynaeve said that Lan was old enough to be her father, and of course Gaidal Cain is either much older or much younger than Birgitte.

 

Age differences clearly aren't that sick, if they're both adults.

[42Bonzo88]

    If you want something funny, in my opinion, its right after that (or during depending on when you start to like it) when Mat meets Tuon and everything that happens since then.

[RAND AL THOR]

The fact remains that Mat wasn't 100% non-consensual. He didn't really mind after a while.

 

If he'd been kicking and screaming and fled the palace, then I'd think differently.

 

Besides, an unwilling man theoretically cannot be raped, I guess.

(PG-13 everyone).

[Roxinos]

Ya, I never found Mat's situation with Tylin pleasant or amusing. I found it disturbing and annoying. I wanted Mat to kill her...figuratively. When she was killed, I wasn't happy. No one deserves that death.

[Paviel]

I think it's PG-13 to say that being scared out of your wits is not conducive to arousal, although perhaps I should leave it at that...

 

Or I could go on to say that Mat couldn't have been too scared to be aroused, or Tylin couldn't have done him.

 

Yet it seemed, when I read those passages, like Mat WAS too scared...

[Hybrid]

I agree with RAND AL THOR.  Mat enjoyed it, he just didn't enjoy not being the one doing the chasing.  Also, Mat isn't exactly helpless.  After the first incident, he could have run off, or he could have fought back, so he wasn't too unwilling.  The role reversal was very interesting.  As was the fact that Beslan was OK with everything happening, which totally creeped Mat out. 

 

You know, it's funny, I misread this and saw it as Mat and Tuon at first.  While I enjoy all of Mat's scenes, I wouldn't give it a 10 out of 10, because there is a slight disturbing factor in it.  But I would rate it an 8.5 or so.

[Luckers]

What Tylin did to Mat was no worse than what Alanna did to Rand.

 

Actually between the two I'd say Rand's situation was probably worse--involving a violation of his mind, and an attempt to violate his free will. Doesn't make what was done to Mat any less disturbing though.

 

The fact remains that Mat wasn't 100% non-consensual. He didn't really mind after a while.

 

And that's significant in what way? Women have orgasmed during rape and legally its still upheld to be rape. Mat said no, she didn't listen. He tried to restrain her and she pulled a knife, he tried to avoid her and she had servants lock him in a room. Did he enjoy the physical act--yes, at times he did. And after a time he even came to have feelings for her in a certain manner, but he kept avoiding her right up until the end.

 

And lets not forget that a part of that 'not minding' came about because, as a man, there was a strong social push that supported the fact that he should enjoy it. When he litterally told Elayne flat out she laughed. She attempted to appear appalled, yet she was giggling at him.

 

The reverse of that would be astonishing. A woman who was ignored when she said no, threatened with a knife, restrained and locked up... she would have had the recourse to approaching others for aid, but Mat, as a man, did not have that.

 

What Tylin did to him was rape, and the way she emotionally infantalized him was near as disgusting an abuse as the actual act of not stopping when he told her too. Even the Ebou Dari, whom have a strong matriarchal control, agreed that what Tylin was doing was wrong. Elayne's reaction was equally disgusting.

 

If he'd been kicking and screaming and fled the palace, then I'd think differently.

 

What man could do such a thing in the face of an over-amorous woman? It'd be humiliating. She played on that too--he had no recourse because, of course, men cannot be raped by women. Or so its said.

 

Besides, an unwilling man theoretically cannot be raped, I guess.

 

Studies have shown that quite often women experience some degree of sexual arousal during rape (specifically the more 'gentle' rape--as in rape wherein there is no great degree of violence used. Often situations were the person knows their attacked--spousal rape or incestuos rape), right up to and including orgasm. Sexual arousal does not mean that a violation did not occur, or that the person was 'asking for it'.

 

No means no, end of game. Mat said no, she didn't listen--and actively restrained him at times, utilizing a knife and other people as well as manipulating his emotional belief in the way he should act towards a woman. That's rape.

 

Mat enjoyed it, he just didn't enjoy not being the one doing the chasing.  Also, Mat isn't exactly helpless.  After the first incident, he could have run off, or he could have fought back, so he wasn't too unwilling.

 

He couldn't have run off, he'd given his word both to Rand and to Elayne. Mat never breaks his word. Within that he did everything in his power to avoid her, but she was Queen, and utilized her social position to make sure he couldn't stay away from her. And how could he have fought back or made a major issue? She was a woman, his entire upbringing stopped him from making a big deal out of it.

 

Doesn't mean it wasn't rape, or that its effects were in some way less traumatic. He shows clearly how uncomfortable he is with the whole issue, even if he can't verbalise it.

 

Mat fought it in every way he could bring himself to. And she continued.

 

It's reprehensible--but yes, it does make for an interesting role reversal within the concept of the plot--but its certainly not 'funny'.

[Charlz Guybon]

I agree with Dreadlady. Those scenes were troubling at best. Mat was forced--both physically and emotionally--into a sexual relationship. And then was laughed at by Elayne when she finally came to understand the reality of what was occuring.

 

Had that occured in reverse people would be crying out in rage at the abuse--both in the books and as readers--even were it followed out exactly with the 'female Mat' coming to feel some degree of warmth for the 'male Tylin'.

 

Now, from a literary sense i can understand RJ having it play out, but it was not in anyway an amusing scene.

 

Depending on the way they are written, can't bad things happen to good people and still be funny?

[Luckers]

Absolutely, depending on your perspective. Consider the Cheryl Aaujo, a 'promiscuous' women raped on a pinball tabel. Onlookers laughed then, undoubtedly the very bad thing happening to her seemed funny to them. They even cheered.

 

And if you fail to see the comparison--its in the 'Mat wanted it' category. Bad things can occur comedically--to a degree. Rape is not within that degree. And the misperception of that is inherently troubling.

[DemandredFO]

I am no kind of psychological anything but couldn't the feelings Mat develops for Tylin be Stockholm syndrome.

[Charlz Guybon]

Absolutely, depending on your perspective. Consider the Cheryl Aaujo, a 'promiscuous' women raped on a pinball tabel. Onlookers laughed then, undoubtedly the very bad thing happening to her seemed funny to them. They even cheered.

 

And if you fail to see the comparison--its in the 'Mat wanted it' category. Bad things can occur comedically--to a degree. Rape is not within that degree. And the misperception of that is inherently troubling.

 

I don't really think that's an appropriate analogy, first of all that happened in real life, secondly the circumstances seem very different. If Elayne or Nynaeve had walked in on Tylin holding Mat at knife point she would have freaked out and done something about it, not laughed and walked out.

 

And I disagree about there being limits on comedy, anything can be funny if done the right way, even murder or genocide. Art/comedy can not be held to the moral standards of reality. There are certainly plenty of slasher/comedies that come out, and Life is Beautiful is an Italian comedy set in a holocaust concentration camp.

[ksbsnowowl]

The reverse of that would be astonishing. A woman who was ignored when she said no, threatened with a knife, restrained and locked up... she would have had the recourse to approaching others for aid, but Mat, as a man, did not have that.

Which was RJ's whole point in writing it, IMO.  Remember one of the major points of the series for him was a exploration of the roles of the sexes in society.

 

I found the scenes interesting, and gave an occasional chuckle at the predicament Mat had found himself in.  Is it rape? Yes. Is it wrong? Yes.  Is it amusing? Yes, due to the societal double-standard, and the complications it causes for Mat.  If that makes me evil, so be it.

[Paviel]

Of course, it's in Ebou Dar, where a woman killing a man was justified unless proven otherwise. And if women can get away with murdering men, they can certainly get away with raping men.

 

Different cultures have varying attitudes toward rape even in real life, and consequences that range from an apology and a marriage to smashing the offender's gonads.

[Roxinos]

Even the Ebou Dari, whom have a strong matriarchal control, agreed that what Tylin was doing was wrong.

 

That's the only response I can give you, Paviel.

[Luckers]

Which was RJ's whole point in writing it, IMO.  Remember one of the major points of the series for him was a exploration of the roles of the sexes in society.

 

Oh, absolutely. Plotwise it plays a very inteteresting role--I just don't agree with the fact that it should be considered funny--fiction or not thats endemic of our social mindset in and of itself. That it is funny is troublesome--moreso because that wasn't depicted as a skit, or analogy to something else, as say the recent south park indiana jones rape episode--it was depicted as a real situation, and it got a thread asking us if we give it a ten out of ten for its humour--complete with comments like 'he wanted it' and 'truly unwilling men can't be raped'.

 

Forgive me, but i find the whole thing disturbing. *shrug*

[Hybrid]

I think it's amusing simply because Mat is placed in an unfamiliar situation and doesn't know which way to jump.  The actual premise of someone being raped isn't funny at all.  But the fact that it was Mat, the James Bond of WOT, was funny.  Also, while Mat was a little freaked out by the situation, he wasn't upset.  He wasn't reacting like a rape victim, he was reacting like someone thrust into an unfamiliar situation.  If he'd been wrecked by what had happened, it would be different.

[ksbsnowowl]

I think it's amusing simply because Mat is placed in an unfamiliar situation and doesn't know which way to jump.  The actual premise of someone being raped isn't funny at all.  But the fact that it was Mat, the James Bond of WOT, was funny.  Also, while Mat was a little freaked out by the situation, he wasn't upset.  He wasn't reacting like a rape victim, he was reacting like someone thrust into an unfamiliar situation.  If he'd been wrecked by what had happened, it would be different.

You did a much better job than myself of encapsulating why I found amusement in the situation, thank you.

[Fryn]

Actually imo it did mess with him mentally. You can see it in his PoV, if you read between the lines. The second guessing and the justifications. If it were a one time occurance Mat might of had a different thought process, however his PoV's are written a lot like a battered wife, trying to justify another person's actions.

 

We only saw the first rape scene during a pov, but mat was mentally and physically raped for the entire duration of his stay in the palace. The initial scene was somewhat humorous, however it is really disturbing at the same time. Even more so when you see other people's perspectives. This wasn't a one time thing though.

 

I think the best RL analogy of the role reversal, would be the stories of western women being enticed to a Middle Eastern country and are held as a pseudo prisoner in some palace. And as previously posted, I haven't studied it or anything, but the first thing I thought of was Stockholm syndrome. Which Imo is worse than just plain rape, because the person begins to feel it was ok or their idea.