LTT mental faculties

[Roxinos]

So you're suggesting that despite the instant madness that Lews Therin and the other surviving members of the Hundred Companions suffered upon completion of their task, Lews Therin still somehow managed to not wreak havoc for at least several days after the Strike?

 

I'm sorry, but that's just silly.

 

If you only take everything which is explicitly stated by either the author or the text, then you're limiting yourself greatly. If that's the case, then you probably don't believe that Moridin is Ishamael, do you? As far as I'm aware, it has never been stated explicitly in the books or by RJ (though RJ might have), but can be easily inferred.

 

Given the time line we do know, the circumstances of Lews Therin's death, the effect the taint has, and the likely course of action those who are driven insane by the taint take, it is easy and reasonable to infer that Lews Therin did his deed at least within a couple of days after the Strike. There is no reason to suggest otherwise, and to deny what can be reasonably inferred simply because it isn't explicitly stated is silly.

[StringWinder]

Might I respectfully say...

 

Just because LTT went insane on the spot I feel the inference that he went straight home to kill his family right away may be flawed.

 

Who's to say he went right home?  I do agree that he did begin "wreaking havoc" right away, most likely.  But I do not think it was suggested that he held off his destruction for any length of time...

 

That is not to say that he began his destructive acts at home, does it?

To think that he may have began Breaking elsewhere is not silly.  Who knows? 

 

I cannot remember a reason not to think he went right home.  Most recently Triadruid put forth the possibility that the Kinslaying did not take place right away, but I did not glean from that that LTT staved off madness for any length of time.

 

Just that it is possible that he did not go directly to kill his family.

 

If there is any text that we could either prove or infer that he went right home, I would gladly retract my statement.

 

BTW, I think it is entirely plausible that he did go right home to kill his family.  It is just as plausible that he didn't, as far as I can tell.

 

 

 

[triadruid]

Thank you. I'm not saying he didn't go stark raving bonkers, burn a city or two to the ground, or open up a new lakebed on the spot... only that there's no evidence he slew all of his kin immediately, and some (admittedly thin) suggestion that he waited a day or two before returning home.

 

Moridin is a red herring, Roxinos. We get his internal POV from the POD Prologue, his overuse of the True Power, and Demandred's opinion of him from the Second Coffee Hour in WH. It's not 100% conclusive, but it's a lot more circumstantial evidence than what you and Luckers posited here.

[Kaznen]

There are many kinds of Chronic Mental Disorders other then "Raving Death Machine" that would explain why a few days could past before LTT and his 100(68) started doing what they did.

 

They could have started out on the good side of bipolar disorder, or had a bit of OCD.  There friends may have wondered why they were suddenly anal about how people should properly brush their teeth but no other red flags.

 

One of the AM who lost started screaming that spiders were crawling all over him.

 

Morr started pulling bricks out of the palace foundation to build a "fort" to protect Min, who convinced him to use wooden blocks instead.

 

I could see it as a few days of Companion 38 telling his girlfriend the proper way to put on her shoes when he finally snapped and said, "If you can't do it right, you can have no shoes."  Shoes on fire, then he thought to put said shoes on her himself (still burning) using the OP, gets tired of her struggling and uses the OP to "restrain her" not realizing he is strangling her with the power.  Being the gentleman his is he opens the door for her (doesn't know she's dead) by blowing it off its hinges.  Starts dragging her out for their stroll and sees a jo-carr heading towards them.  He thinks it is a bout hit them (even though the driver is slowing down) and blasts it out of his way, and so it continues.

 

The sane AS capture and shield them and do what ever they would do and they just thought maybe the stress of the war caused Companion 38 to snap.

[a pale tanned lover]

Might I respectfully say...

 

Just because LTT went insane on the spot I feel the inference that he went straight home to kill his family right away may be flawed.

 

Is there any evidence he went insane on the spot, yes the DO put the taint on Saidin, but who knows how long it would take to affect people, since they were all tainted to go mad it's likely that most would do it at the same time(imagine infecting so many people with a disease, the their would be a big group being infected at the same time) but nothing to suggest a day, a week or a year.

[triadruid]

Actually, yes. The Strike at Shayol Ghul story linked to on the last page says all of the surviving Hundred Companions went insane immediately; it's the other male AS that took some time to go completely crazybeans.

 

Granted, it's a possibly unreliable narrator, but it's as close as we get without LTT's POV.

[a pale tanned lover]

Actually, yes. The Strike at Shayol Ghul story linked to on the last page says all of the surviving Hundred Companions went insane immediately; it's the other male AS that took some time to go completely crazybeans.

 

Granted, it's a possibly unreliable narrator, but it's as close as we get without LTT's POV.

 

Ok on this point i must admit i've never read TSOSG(silly me) but going insane straight away, still is  something that i would have thought takes time to come out and manifest(lots of insane people in THIS world but we don't know for years after, although i acknowledge they don't wield the one power) where as in, they go mad and tainted but it saidin that causes the madness, not the person.

 

[Roxinos]

Just because LTT went insane on the spot I feel the inference that he went straight home to kill his family right away may be flawed.

 

Who's to say he went right home?  I do agree that he did begin "wreaking havoc" right away, most likely.  But I do not think it was suggested that he held off his destruction for any length of time...

 

We never said he went straight home, killed his family, and then killed himself. Neither I nor Luckers has said that. We said that it was within the time frame of a few days after the Strike. It was certainly before the authorities got wind of it, because it was near the same time that the Hundred Companions began to wreak their havoc, and that was the first indication the authorities had.

 

The issue arose when triadruid suggested that time frame of a few days was vague, and that the point that Lews Therin's suicide was before the authorities caught wind of the effects of the Strike was unsubstantiated.  We were making the point that the time frame of a few days is quite specific relative to how little we know of the order of events, and knowing that time frame, and what happened after that time frame, and what happened during and after the Strike tells us that it must have been before the authorities caught wind of the effects of the Strike.

 

That's all we have been saying, nothing more nothing less. If there is any confusion or if you still have a disagreement with the above paragraph on the time line (Strike, Lews Therin and Hundred Companions go mad, sometime within the few days between the Strike and the time when the Hundred Companions begin wreaking havoc Lews Therin kills his family and himself, the Hundred Companions begin wreaking havoc which alerts the authorities that something happened at the Strike beyond the successful Sealing of the Bore) then point it out.

 

Moridin is a red herring, Roxinos. We get his internal POV from the POD Prologue, his overuse of the True Power, and Demandred's opinion of him from the Second Coffee Hour in WH. It's not 100% conclusive, but it's a lot more circumstantial evidence than what you and Luckers posited here.

 

It was a valid analogy relative to the implicit information provided in both circumstances we use to determine a non-explicit answer to a question. It was not intended to misdirect the discussion. I'm sorry if it comes off that way.

 

Ok on this point i must admit i've never read TSOSG(silly me) but going insane straight away, still is  something that i would have thought takes time to come out and manifest(lots of insane people in THIS world but we don't know for years after, although i acknowledge they don't wield the one power) where as in, they go mad and tainted but it saidin that causes the madness, not the person.

 

I provided the link to the Strike. It is very short, so I suggest you read it. It tells you that Lews Therin and the surviving Hundred Companions were made instantly insane by the Great Lord's taint when the Bore was sealed.

 

But I'm sorry that I can't understand the rest of what you said. Could you please rephrase it?

[a pale tanned lover]

Ok on this point i must admit i've never read TSOSG(silly me) but going insane straight away, still is  something that i would have thought takes time to come out and manifest(lots of insane people in THIS world but we don't know for years after, although i acknowledge they don't wield the one power) where as in, they go mad and tainted but it saidin that causes the madness, not the person.

 

I provided the link to the Strike. It is very short, so I suggest you read it. It tells you that Lews Therin and the surviving Hundred Companions were made instantly insane by the Great Lord's taint when the Bore was sealed.

 

But I'm sorry that I can't understand the rest of what you said. Could you please rephrase it?

 

Thanks for that Roxinos, no need for me to re-phase what i just wrote earlier because that would be built on faulty logic, as much as i would like to argue with you :D your right

[a pale tanned lover]

On that point Roxinos and my lack of understanding ;)

[Ashaman Kovan]

Maybe his form of insanity was thinking that he was saving his family from a worse fate by killing them himself? Maybe he partially realized what happaned to the other 100 companions and thought to insanely save his family from a life of fear and having to run constantly to get away from the other male AS or just the destruction they were inflicting. Or something. I don't know. Seems like it could make sense though. It's pure speculation as well.

[Luckers]

The SASG story as written only says what happened the day of the Strike; it's completely silent on the Kinslaying and LTT's immolation, which is reserved for the EOTW Prologue. It can be inferred that the latter happened within days or even perhaps hours of the Counterstroke, but that's not certain. It does state outright that "within days" they were causing destruction and additional male AS were going mad, but not when LTT destroyed his home and loved ones. That's all I'm saying; that it's impossible to give an exact timeline as to when the Kinslaying happened.

 

So its an argument in absentia? 'You can't prove it absolutely, therefore my argument is just as viable.'? Except its not, because inference does stand its own value. Thats what an inference is--to imply something from a basis of knowledge. You might as easily say 'deduce' if you don't like the word inference.

 

We know as a fact that Lews Therin went insane on the instant--and that furthermore even amongst the Hundred Companions he descended into true psychosis fast, Ishamael states it directly. "The black-clad man's eyes widened, darted to the body of the golden-haired woman, then back to Lews Therin. "Shai'tan take you, does the taint already have you so far in its grip?""

 

We know from the Guide that the Hundred Companions fell hard to the taint, and that that began upon the instant of the sealing, and Ishamael, after LTT had killed his family, is still surprised at how fast he fell into terminal insanity.

 

So, yes my friend, we can deduce a degree of immediacy from that.

 

So, we can deduce that Lews Therin did his kinslaying with some immediacy--based on Ishamael's other quote from the prologue "Even now the Hundred Companions are tearing the world apart, and every day a hundred

men more join them." We know that at least two days had passed, so ultimately i would place the timeline between two and four days, but i doubt it would be more.

 

Now that quote stands us in good stead for establishing a timeline of when the authorities realised what the taint was, because in the Strike it states "By the time the taint on saidin was discovered, hundreds more male Aes Sedai had been driven mad."

 

So, by Ishamael's method of timing it once again at least two days had to have passed (enought for the hundreds to go multiple)--only we have no comments indicating a degree of immediacy, as with LTT's actions. Which means the timeline for realisation becomes between two and nine days.

 

Beyond that, into this we must weight the context at the time. Were hundreds of channelers to run on an insane rampage prior to the war it would have been noticed, but this was towards the end of the war--the world was in ashes, all major industry had long since been destroyed, hundreds of thousands of channelers and armies in the millions fought accross the length and bredth of the entire planet. The insanity began with the sixty-eight survivors who were near shayol ghoul, a vastly unpopulated area in the heart of the shadow and away from any of the Light's officials.

 

Those that went mad in the days following stand the highest likelyhood of being in the field, amidst battle conditions, and it would have been a case of one here, one there (a matter of logic--random selection from amidst hundreds of thousand will surface in the highest concentrations before being noticed in the smaller groupings--the highest concentrations of channelers would be amongst the armies).

 

So yes, ultimately inference gets us just about as far as we need to get. With a lee way of two days, i feel my initial comment was justified. Lews Therin did his damage before the Light had recognised what was going on with the taint.

 

 

Quote from: Luckers on October 03, 2008, 03:37:31 AM

triadruid, Roxinos got most of it, but in addition we also know that communication was lost with Lews Therin before the attack got underway.

 

Irrelevant, because we're not talking about what happened at SG, but what happened at LTT's home. I'm not arguing that what exactly went down at SG was unknown; I'm saying that the exact timeline of Kinslaying v. Knowledge of Taint is inherently unknowable. Ishamael's words imply that it has been "days" since the Strike, and TSASG only says it took time for the taint to be discovered, not the madness. Unless you have a quote from RJ saying LTT gated directly home to kiss his wife goodbye, we're bandying opinion, and I just want the other side to acknowledge that as well.

 

Irrelevant? My friend, you seem to misremember the flow of this conversation--you challenged a comment of mine that LTT did his damage before the authorities learnt of the tainting. To me, as an initial point in addressing your challange it seemed highly relevant to point out that communications with the strike time were lost, and that none of the strike team survived (ergo meaning that none of the strike team revealed the effects of the taint upon the Hundred Companions). Roxinos got the latter, so i just tagged on the former--you know, in case someone said 'well no one survived but they had communications technology, what if they warned them'.

 

It felt relevant to get rid of that possibility as a precursor to this actual discussion. Do you disagree?

[sillyman]

To me the 100's go insane every day implies a time longer then 2 to 4 days.  The black tower did not experience such a ratio of insane channelers.  Perhaps its because they were gradually introduced to the taint instead of it just appearing but that seems a lot to assume about the mechanics of a fairly unknown condition.

[Roxinos]

You have to look at the context as well.

 

Back when the taint first appeared, there was a war going on. Granted, the war was in its last throes, but it is safe to assume that the amount of channeling going on when the taint appeared makes the amount of channeling which goes on in the Black Tower look like child's play.

 

That amount of channeling makes a large difference.

[Luckers]

To me the 100's go insane every day implies a time longer then 2 to 4 days.  The black tower did not experience such a ratio of insane channelers.  Perhaps its because they were gradually introduced to the taint instead of it just appearing but that seems a lot to assume about the mechanics of a fairly unknown condition.

 

I think the explanation is a lot more simple and obvious than that. Roughly 3 percent of the population in the Age of Legends could channel, even with losses to the war, in an industrialized society that means hundreds of thousands, if not millions of active male channelers.

 

From there we know the taint takes some men faster then others. Some last years, others barely a day. Amongst the Asha'men only one fell so quickly, but thats one amongst a thousand. Amongst millions there would a statistically higher number of men who would have been predisposed to fall to the taint so easily.

 

Ergo, a hundred new nutcakes each day for the first few weeks. It probably slowed a bit after that. As the more resilient held on--indeed we know it was nearly forty years before society completely unravelled.

 

 

Edit: I'm gonna correct myself there--it wouldn't have slowed down, it would have sped up. The Breaking lasted as long as it did only because new men started channeling, and others hid within the stedding to come out later. No man was able to stay sane for a hundred years.

 

Yet, at a rate of one hundred a day only 36 thousand would have gone nuts after a year. It would have taken centuries for all the men who could channel to have gone mad had it stayed at that rate.

 

So, it began at a hundred a day, and increased later on--it might have stayed at a hundred a day for the first year or something, but after that it would have climbed over the following five years until all the men who were free were insane.

[Hybrid]

Wow.  Put into numbers, it's quite a terrifying apocalyptic vision.  The fact that the Aes Sedai were trusted servants of the people doesn't help either.

[triadruid]

He did his damage before reports of what had happened at the sealing even reached the authorities. He went nuts straight away, killed his family, Ishamael arrived and cured him, and then he killed himselv.

This was your original statement, the one we've been nattering on about for two pages. If you're saying that you didn't mean to say that he immediately went to kill his family after going nuts, then I think we're done here. But I don't think "inference" means what you think it means...

 

I'm not making an argument in absentia. I'm trying to establish basic statements we can agree on, one of which appears to be the definition of "immediate". My actual argument is that it cannot be proven that LTT killed his kin before the Taint became known to those outside the 68 surviving Companions. It is certainly possible, but not proven.

[Luckers]

This was your original statement, the one we've been nattering on about for two pages. If you're saying that you didn't mean to say that he immediately went to kill his family after going nuts, then I think we're done here. But I don't think "inference" means what you think it means...

 

By which you imply that I did say that. Go play word games with someone else, I said what I said. If you misread it it's your problem.

 

Speaking of word games: inference, the implication of something from a factual base. Means pretty much that I thought it did.

 

I'm not making an argument in absentia. I'm trying to establish basic statements we can agree on, one of which appears to be the definition of "immediate". My actual argument is that it cannot be proven that LTT killed his kin before the Taint became known to those outside the 68 surviving Companions. It is certainly possible, but not proven.

 

I believe I commented on that. All that about the Ishamael's comments proving a degree of immediacy, and the established time of between two days and four days for Lews Therin's actions, and two days and nine days for realisation of the taint.

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were genuinely confused as opposed to simply scrabbling to cover the fact that you'd overpushed an issue you weren't able to support, and repost my comments. Hopefully this time they'll become clear to you.

 

Or perhaps i've misread the issue, and you can point out to me where my logic is flawed, coz ill be honest comments like yours in the face of full fledged arguments usually make me contemptuos. and I'd hate to think I'd summarily dismissed someone with an actual genuine thought.

 

Anyway, without further adue, my argument repeated.

 

 

 

We know as a fact that Lews Therin went insane on the instant--and that furthermore even amongst the Hundred Companions he descended into true psychosis fast, Ishamael states it directly. "The black-clad man's eyes widened, darted to the body of the golden-haired woman, then back to Lews Therin. "Shai'tan take you, does the taint already have you so far in its grip?""

 

We know from the Guide that the Hundred Companions fell hard to the taint, and that that began upon the instant of the sealing, and Ishamael, after LTT had killed his family, is still surprised at how fast he fell into terminal insanity.

 

So, yes my friend, we can deduce a degree of immediacy from that.

 

So, we can deduce that Lews Therin did his kinslaying with some immediacy--based on Ishamael's other quote from the prologue "Even now the Hundred Companions are tearing the world apart, and every day a hundred

men more join them." We know that at least two days had passed, so ultimately i would place the timeline between two and four days, but i doubt it would be more.

 

Now that quote stands us in good stead for establishing a timeline of when the authorities realised what the taint was, because in the Strike it states "By the time the taint on saidin was discovered, hundreds more male Aes Sedai had been driven mad."

 

So, by Ishamael's method of timing it once again at least two days had to have passed (enought for the hundreds to go multiple)--only we have no comments indicating a degree of immediacy, as with LTT's actions. Which means the timeline for realisation becomes between two and nine days.

 

Beyond that, into this we must weight the context at the time. Were hundreds of channelers to run on an insane rampage prior to the war it would have been noticed, but this was towards the end of the war--the world was in ashes, all major industry had long since been destroyed, hundreds of thousands of channelers and armies in the millions fought accross the length and bredth of the entire planet. The insanity began with the sixty-eight survivors who were near shayol ghoul, a vastly unpopulated area in the heart of the shadow and away from any of the Light's officials.

 

Those that went mad in the days following stand the highest likelyhood of being in the field, amidst battle conditions, and it would have been a case of one here, one there (a matter of logic--random selection from amidst hundreds of thousand will surface in the highest concentrations before being noticed in the smaller groupings--the highest concentrations of channelers would be amongst the armies).

 

So yes, ultimately inference gets us just about as far as we need to get. With a lee way of two days, i feel my initial comment was justified. Lews Therin did his damage before the Light had recognised what was going on with the taint.