Rand's crazy.

[Roxinos]

How crazy do you think he is? And I want to split it into two categories: taint crazy, regular crazy.

 

We all know that the taint did affect him in some way before he managed to Cleanse the Source. How much of his current state is due to the taint still running through him (or however you think the taint of affecting a channeler)? How much of it is just due to the stress of circumstance?

 

And on another note, do you think Cadsuane is right about him? Do you think Lews Therin is a result of the taint?

[Sabio]

Don't think he is taint crazy, he is semi crazy from having LTT in him.  His problems isn't taint its his link with Mordin.  Semi says his is insane but again how much can you trust a Forsaken?  He can't be too mad or some of his followers would of mentioned something, especially Min

[Fryn]

I am pretty sure Cad is wrong about LTT being a figment of the taint. There has been way too much knowledge passed to Rand for it to be a figment of the taint. Knowledge that is only known by those from the AoL. That said Rand is nutty than the mad hatter.

[Sabio]

Don't think we have seen much proof he is nutty as a mad hatter.  I think his craziest moment was when he raised the seal above his head and started to scream to smash it smash it.  LTT is totally insane, but we haven't seen much concern from his followers so far or Min that he is that mad. 

[Luckers]

Technically, the Taint isn't a style of madness--we've witnessed too many types of insanity resulting from the Taint for the Taint to be a 'mental state' of its own.

 

What the taint does is destabalize the persons normal mental state--effectivelly it facilitates already existing mental instabilities into becoming active. It catalyses the insanity, causes it to happen, but it is not in and of itself the insanity.

 

As such, the destinction Roxinos makes becomes difficult. The taint increases mental instability, but the stress of normal life plays its own influence which is then hightened by the increased mental instability. Both are causes, not effects. Both play their own part, and what results comes from both.

 

I am pretty sure Cad is wrong about LTT being a figment of the taint. There has been way too much knowledge passed to Rand for it to be a figment of the taint. Knowledge that is only known by those from the AoL. That said Rand is nutty than the mad hatter.

 

It's not a problem. We know that real-voices can manifest in this world (Graendal studied them in the Age of Legends), and we know that the taint causes normal mental problems to become active. Thus, the taint causing the manifestation of a real-voice is no issue.

 

So yes, there has been way too much knowledge passed to Rand for LTT to not be real, doesn't mean he isn't a manifestation that occured because of the taint.

[Sabio]

And since Rand never heard LTT till he started to channel.

[Fryn]

Good destinction Lurkers. It could have been caused in part by the taint. Cads makes it sound like LTT isn't real and is only a figment (or at least thats how I gather it), which is the part that I believe is wrong.

 

Don't think we have seen much proof he is nutty as a mad hatter.  I think his craziest moment was when he raised the seal above his head and started to scream to smash it smash it.  LTT is totally insane, but we haven't seen much concern from his followers so far or Min that he is that mad. 

 

Actually that was one of his saner moments =). At least in how I understand it. The longer in limbo the stronger the DOs grasp is becoming. To face the DO all of the seals must be broken. To me the longer it takes for TG the worse off the light is. Not many agree with my assessment though, so it could be seen as LTT being insane (note that was LTT not rand that had the thought to break the seal). Basically it is akin to in LOTR to deciding to leave the one ring in hiding instead of destroying it.

 

As for mad as a hatter...

On his way to the sword he killed off a band of 14 travelers (lucky really because one was an assassin he couldnt see). He then however arranged them so they were all bowing to him and stated that was how it should be. The first time I read that chapter it gave me chills. He was more insane in the early stages than he was in a few of the later books. I sometimes wonder what made Rand more sane after TDR.

When accepting the nobles in Cairhen the nobles started to notice a cold light in his eyes, as he contemplated taking out the forsaken.

Rand himself admits he is half crazy and wonders if he is more or less crazy for being able to admit that he is... LTT starts to sound like the sane voice in his head.

 

There are more of course. Personally I think thats what makes the character so great, and it makes me wonder if any sane person could do what is required of Rand.

 

[Sabio]

Hehe forgot about the making the bodies bow to him.  Well I always assumed they were all going to kill him.

 

 

As Min said the fact he worries about going crazy shows he isn't a lunatic yet.  He clearly still won't harm somone he cares about, or a woman, knows LTT is real in his head, worries about how much stuff he has yet to do, cleased the taint.  Not the actions of someone nutty as a mad hatter.  Not saying he is sane, just not over the edge insane.

[Luckers]

Good destinction Lurkers. It could have been caused in part by the taint. Cads makes it sound like LTT isn't real and is only a figment (or at least thats how I gather it), which is the part that I believe is wrong.

 

Well, to be fair, Cadsuane only comments that many men like Rand hear voices. A big part of that i think is our own expectation that people who hear voices arn't hearing real voices, but even Cadsuane wouldn't know of real voices--she's no expert on that, and never claimed to be. She does have experience with men who can channel however, and was correct in everything she did say.

 

Also my addy is Luckers. With a c. Or you could call me James.

 

As Min said the fact he worries about going crazy shows he isn't a lunatic yet.  He clearly still won't harm somone he cares about, or a woman, knows LTT is real in his head, worries about how much stuff he has yet to do, cleased the taint.  Not the actions of someone nutty as a mad hatter.  Not saying he isn't he is sane, just not over the edge insane.

 

You know, psychology doesn't actually recognise 'insanity' or 'madness' as being real. It deals more with abnormal mental states and the effect that has on the persons ability to function. By that understanding Rand might be described as a highly functional schitzophrenic with some form of emotional instability.

 

Thats my longworded way of saying i agree--whilst Rand is suffering from mental instability he is still functionally aware of the world, and rational about dealing with it.

[Fryn]

I'll just blame my PC screen and dyslexia >< I never meant anything by it I just thought your name was lurkers (since I think I have been messing up your name for a long time). Any name past 4 letters is beyond my comprehension =) All hail Mat and Rand the easy to type characters.

 

I'll agree as of late he has been a lot better. Really he was most out of it in books 2 and 3. If you recall Rand trying to bring the dead girl back to life. But that was mostly due to the sword I think.

 

At one point wasn't the series length going to be shorter? like 3 book series, then 5, then 12? that might explain the change in mood swings in any case. I started after book 10, so I'm far from sure if that was even a rumor I heard.

[Roxinos]

As such, the destinction Roxinos makes becomes difficult. The taint increases mental instability, but the stress of normal life plays its own influence which is then hightened by the increased mental instability. Both are causes, not effects. Both play their own part, and what results comes from both.

 

I was aware of the issue. I had to phrase it in such a way as to make a distinction between the two causes, and I did so successfully. Unfortunately, it also made it sound as thought the two causes were results in themselves.

 

As for mad as a hatter...

 

I had actually forgotten about that whole period. He kind of sobered up after that intensely stressful beginning period before he captured the Stone. After all, he knew that he had to capture the Stone, but he also knew that it was impossible because he couldn't capture the Stone until he touched the Sword and you cannot get the Sword without capturing the Stone. I think the fact that his whole life was revolving around that paradox tore him up. And once the paradox was resolved, his mental state shifted back to reality for the most part.

 

Well, to be fair, Cadsuane only comments that many men like Rand hear voices. A big part of that i think is our own expectation that people who hear voices arn't hearing real voices, but even Cadsuane wouldn't know of real voices--she's no expert on that, and never claimed to be. She does have experience with men who can channel however, and was correct in everything she did say.

 

So she's wrong merely because she is unaware of the real-voice manifestation? It makes sense. Cadsuane is a brilliantly pragmatic woman. I don't think she's the type to hear something fanciful and reject it if you're a credible source. She doesn't think Rand is all that credible, though, so hearing that Rand has Lews Therin in his head isn't exactly going to change her mind about male channelers sometimes going crazy and hearing voices.

 

You know, psychology doesn't actually recognise 'insanity' or 'madness' as being real. It deals more with abnormal mental states and the effect that has on the persons ability to function. By that understanding Rand might be described as a highly functional schitzophrenic with some form of emotional instability.

 

Sure it does. It just doesn't use the terms "insanity" or "madness". Schizophrenia, once past a certain degree, is insanity. Insanity simply being a distortion of reality within your mind past that which is sane. They just call all of those various types of insanity and symptoms of insanity by a different name: psychosis.

 

Thats my longworded way of saying i agree--whilst Rand is suffering from mental instability he is still functionally aware of the world, and rational about dealing with it.

 

I had mentioned that to a friend a few minutes before I posted this. My discussion with him is what brought me to post the question here. We see his ability to function, and we see his ability to be intensely pragmatic about the world around him. But it is possible that his extreme pragmatism (hand blown off, eyesight mucked up and he just takes it in stride) is caused by the mental instability. He is most certainly not in a healthy position right now, regardless of his ability to function.

 

I once read an article where the author was bitching about people who call functional alcoholics alcoholics. She thought that the phrase "alcoholic" should be reserved solely for those who are not able to function, because you can't have a problem if the habit is not affecting your daily life.

 

Well, in this case, regardless of Rand's ability to function, his mental instability is still affecting his daily life. In fact, I'd say that his ability to function under the unbelievable stress is another symptom of his mental instability. He's broken past the point of recognizing reality and being affected by it in a sane way.

 

But that was mostly due to the sword I think.

 

This was another thing which arose in my discussion. I don't think you can blame Rand for his actions while under the influence of Callandor. It's akin to blaming Mat for his actions while under the influence of the dagger.

 

At one point wasn't the series length going to be shorter? like 3 book series, then 5, then 12? that might explain the change in mood swings in any case. I started after book 10, so I'm far from sure if that was even a rumor I heard.

 

When he first started writing, he had no clue how long the series was going to be. He knew the ending, and he had written the beginning, the middle was vague. By the third book, he said 6 books. By the 5th book, he said 8. By the 8th book he gave up trying to give a number and just said he would finish it when he was finished. That's why when he finally declared it would be 12 books, no one really believed him and a most frequently asked question was "will it really be only 12 books?" to which he responded his usual "this will be the last book if you have to carry it home on a carrying case" or something like that.

[Ndshacker]

"will it really be only 12 books?" to which he responded his usual "this will be the last book if you have to carry it home on a carrying case" or something like that.

I love that. I am visualizing 11 books sitting on a book shelf beside AMOL witch is now th base for my bed.

[Luckers]

I'll just blame my PC screen and dyslexia >< I never meant anything by it I just thought your name was lurkers (since I think I have been messing up your name for a long time). Any name past 4 letters is beyond my comprehension =) All hail Mat and Rand the easy to type characters.

 

A fair few get it wrong--doesn't bother me at all, lol. I'm dyslexic myself after all.

 

So she's wrong merely because she is unaware of the real-voice manifestation? It makes sense. Cadsuane is a brilliantly pragmatic woman. I don't think she's the type to hear something fanciful and reject it if you're a credible source. She doesn't think Rand is all that credible, though, so hearing that Rand has Lews Therin in his head isn't exactly going to change her mind about male channelers sometimes going crazy and hearing voices.

 

I don't even think its entirely accurate to say she was wrong--after all nothing she said was actually wrong. Rand was hearing a voice, it was telling him things to do, explaining things to him.

 

Sure it does. It just doesn't use the terms "insanity" or "madness". Schizophrenia, once past a certain degree, is insanity. Insanity simply being a distortion of reality within your mind past that which is sane. They just call all of those various types of insanity and symptoms of insanity by a different name: psychosis.

 

I don't wish to play with semantics, but no it doesn't. The distinction between the concepts of madness and mental states is amongst the very first the subject of psychology teaches. And it is an important distinction to make, to my mind... for all that modern psychology is in many ways a witch science, it is still a science--the concept of insanity implies a stated norm, a mental state that is natural and which provides a basis point from which the mind can skew, and that is a very very dangerous idea. It was with that idea in mind that homosexuality was declared a mental disorder.

 

The perception of functionality, of the ability to act and percieve the nature of ones own actions, these are much more accurate judges because they are subjective to the individual. A subjectivity allowing for actual relevant analysis.

 

And that is relevant--take this case, for example. Several posters have put it out there that the suggestion that LTT is real in some way changes the effect on Rand--he isn't insane, clearly, becauses everything he hears is real, and something very real has controlled him. The idea of insane, the percieving of that which is not there, does not cover that, yet nevertheless is does disrupt his ability to function--it has direct affect on his life. Therefore it is an abnormal mental state, for all that he is not insane.

 

And psychosis speaks to a specific bout of mental and emotional agitation relating to a specific cause--it does not mean the same thing as insanity or madness.

[Roxinos]

I don't wish to play with semantics, but no it doesn't.

 

Bah. I was going to actually type up a response, but you took all of the fun out of it.

[Ashaman Kovan]

From Luckers

 

It's not a problem. We know that real-voices can manifest in this world (Graendal studied them in the Age of Legends), and we know that the taint causes normal mental problems to become active. Thus, the taint causing the manifestation of a real-voice is no issue.

 

So yes, there has been way too much knowledge passed to Rand for LTT to not be real, doesn't mean he isn't a manifestation that occured because of the taint.

 

Well for it to be a manifestation of the Taint wouldn't other male channelers have started hearing the voices of those that they are reborn as? Although I guess they very well could have, but I don't think RJ would have left something like that out IMO. But I guess he could have.

 

 

 

[Roxinos]

Well for it to be a manifestation of the Taint wouldn't other male channelers have started hearing the voices of those that they are reborn as? Although I guess they very well could have, but I don't think RJ would have left something like that out IMO. But I guess he could have.

 

Not necessarily.

 

We know the taint has caused men to hear voices in the past. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are hearing the voices of their past lives, though it's possible. There's no way for us to know because we've never met any of those people.

 

And Luckers didn't say that the taint causes men to hear voices like Lews Therin, but that the taint could have caused Rand to be able to hear Lews Therin in his head. Just because the taint was the trigger doesn't necessarily invalidate the truth of who the voice is.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Well for it to be a manifestation of the Taint wouldn't other male channelers have started hearing the voices of those that they are reborn as? Although I guess they very well could have, but I don't think RJ would have left something like that out IMO. But I guess he could have.

 

Not necessarily.

 

We know the taint has caused men to hear voices in the past. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are hearing the voices of their past lives, though it's possible. There's no way for us to know because we've never met any of those people.

 

And Luckers didn't say that the taint causes men to hear voices like Lews Therin, but that the taint could have caused Rand to be able to hear Lews Therin in his head. Just because the taint was the trigger doesn't necessarily invalidate the truth of who the voice is.

 

I was under the impression that that was exactly what Luckers was saying. That Rand is hearing the voice of soul he is reborn as because of the taint? Or well I guess "Could" is the operative word here.

[Roxinos]

I was under the impression that that was exactly what Luckers was saying. That Rand is hearing the voice of soul he is reborn as because of the taint? Or well I guess "Could" is the operative word here.

 

You're putting too much emphasis on that Rand is hearing the voice of his past life rather than simply that the taint is making him hear a voice and that voice is Lews Therin.

[a pale tanned lover]

erm, just out of interest, on the chosen or forsaken or whatever, what makes you think they ever deaalt with this. thats a very small way of thinking, and im sorry for coming between lovers  :D

[Roxinos]

erm, just out of interest, on the chosen or forsaken or whatever, what makes you think they ever deaalt with this. thats a very small way of thinking, and im sorry for coming between lovers

 

Wha--?

 

What do the Chosen have to do with this? No one has mentioned them....

 

Edit: Whoops. Forgot not to feed the troll.

[a pale tanned lover]

has anyone in the AOL dealt with the LTT and Rand personality? i think that this is a new thing and any chosen/forsaken who knows about this is has no experience in that field, so its out there in my view, what ever semirhage says.

 

[a pale tanned lover]

but roxinos has love in the air so his view may be tainted :D

[Hydroc Claw]

The Forsaken most certainly have dealt with LTT, as they were all Aes Sedai at the same time and then fought each other. The experience the Forsaken have with madness is what they know from madness caused by things other than the taint.

[Luckers]

Well for it to be a manifestation of the Taint wouldn't other male channelers have started hearing the voices of those that they are reborn as? Although I guess they very well could have, but I don't think RJ would have left something like that out IMO. But I guess he could have.

 

Well, yes some other male channelers throughout the course of the near four thousand years that the tain existed likely did hear real voices--the taint catalyzes pre-existing mental instabilities into manifesting themselves, and there had to be others who had a pre-disposition to this condition...

 

But why would RJ have mentioned it? How indeed would any of them have even realised they weren't just hearing a random voice? Unlike Rand they had none of their past voices contemporaries around to verify their insane comments.

 

Cadsuane even mentions other men who have heard voices, ones who have told them what to do or revealed things.

 

Well for it to be a manifestation of the Taint wouldn't other male channelers have started hearing the voices of those that they are reborn as? Although I guess they very well could have, but I don't think RJ would have left something like that out IMO. But I guess he could have.

 

Not necessarily.

 

We know the taint has caused men to hear voices in the past. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are hearing the voices of their past lives, though it's possible. There's no way for us to know because we've never met any of those people.

 

And Luckers didn't say that the taint causes men to hear voices like Lews Therin, but that the taint could have caused Rand to be able to hear Lews Therin in his head. Just because the taint was the trigger doesn't necessarily invalidate the truth of who the voice is.

 

I was under the impression that that was exactly what Luckers was saying. That Rand is hearing the voice of soul he is reborn as because of the taint? Or well I guess "Could" is the operative word here.

 

Indeed Roxinos, that was precisely what i was saying. The taint caused Rand to hear LTT--the real LTT, yes, but still it was caused by the taint. And i stand by a caused, not 'could have caused'. The likelyhood of Rand manifesting an abnormal psychological state seperate of the taint seems incredibly unlikely to me--for all that the stress doesn't not help.

 

That being said Kovan, Roxinos did hit on a point--the taint does not cause men to hear real voices, it causes men's mental stability to deteriate--those with a pre-disposition to hearing voices will hear voices, others will become children, others will have wild hallucinations. It depends entirely on their personal mental state.

 

 

 

 

pale tanned lover, you've had a thread locked, don't make us take it further than this. Play nice.

 

In answer to your questiong, Graendal was an expert of mental conditions--if you wish to see full discussion on this matter look it up, there are many threads on the veracity of Semirhage's comments.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Ahh okay. I understand what you're saying now. Sorry for having to make you explain it again. ;D