I Just Don't Get It... (Reds going to the BT)

[RAND AL THOR]

Quite a number of the sisters loathe Elaida. That alone is insufficient to identify Messana. I truly think Messana's identity is clouded too much. Either we're missing the obvious or RJ overestimated us. This is under discussion in the structured forum i believe.

[Hybrid]

Quite a number of the sisters loathe Elaida. That alone is insufficient to identify Messana. I truly think Messana's identity is clouded too much. Either we're missing the obvious or RJ overestimated us. This is under discussion in the structured forum i believe.

 

I think Luckers was pointing out that Javindhra might be Black Ajah.  I doubt Mesaana would walk into a hall of 100 male channelers under any circumstances without an equally large number of allies.  That's what proxies are for.

[Luckers]

Indeed--given her absense from the Cleansing, I'd say that's almost impossible.

 

I don't actually think Javindhra is black, btw--just that some people do based on those reasons. I actually find them rather flimsy.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

Some suggest Javindhra because she displays strange signs of pleasure at signs that Elaida is in trouble despite that she is supposed to be Elaida's lapdog. Frankly i don't see much in that--Elaida is a distinctly unpleasent woman, and has a tendency to treat those that try to help he with highhanded disdain. Take Joline and Teslyn for instance--both now loathe Elaida, despite beginning as two of her six closest supporters, and the architects of her rise to power.

 

 

Doesn't the Highest appoint the Red Sitters, and didn't Javindhra become a sitter while Galina was the Highest?

[Luckers]

Doesn't the Highest appoint the Red Sitters, and didn't Javindhra become a sitter while Galina was the Highest?

 

I don't remember reading that the Highest chose the sitters--but even if thats true, Pevara became a sitter whilst Galina was highest also--Galina became highest around 981, and Pevara became a Sitter around 985. I'm not sure if her being Highest can imply anything.

 

And Javindhra became a sitter after Elaida was raised. The way it happened was of the three original Sitters--Pevara, Teslyn and Amira, Amira stepped down and was replaced by Elaida so that they could propel Elaida into the Amyrlin Seat, but never resumed her seat. Instead she joined the embassy to Rand and was killed at Dumai's Wells.

 

After that Javindhra was raised to replace Amira, and then Duhara was raised to replace Teslyn.

[tworiverswoman]

Luckers, twice you've offered the following remark:

The second that the Reds sense through the bond that the Asha'men has lost it, they can kill him immediately and cleanly without even a fight.

What is your source for this?  I'm afraid I do not recall ever reading any hint that this was a capability.  We've seen a black ajah Aes Sedai or two actively hiding from their NON-black warders -- why do this if, as you say, they can kill them "wherever they are" with a thought?  And why couldn't Elyas' Aes Sedai find him after he fled all those years ago after becoming a wolf-brother?

 

Given the rather unpleasant consequences to a bond-holder when her warder dies for any reason, I find this to be an unlikely move by any of them even if it IS possible.

[Luckers]

It's an aspect of the bond that Aes Sedai do not talk about--but they can draw strength from their warder, right up to and including killing them.

 

It's never mentioned actively in the series. RJ was asked about this following comment in the glossaries, "There are indications that the Aes Sedai receive other benefits from the bond with their Gaidin, but their exact nature is a closely held secret." To which he gave the above answer.

 

We've seen a black ajah Aes Sedai or two actively hiding from their NON-black warders -- why do this if, as you say, they can kill them "wherever they are" with a thought?

 

Because they don't want to kill their warders. They think this several times--indeed, Asne has been secretly letting her warders come closer, and they all want to kill her. The bond gives absolute control if it becomes nessasary--Aes Sedai have bonded unwilling men in the past, and that is no different. Those men can still be useful.

 

Beyond which having a warder die is very unpleasent, whether you kill him or not. I doubt any of those sisters want to spend the next few months as an emotional cripple.

 

And why couldn't Elyas' Aes Sedai find him after he fled all those years ago after becoming a wolf-brother?

 

She could, at any time.

 

Given the rather unpleasant consequences to a bond-holder when her warder dies for any reason, I find this to be an unlikely move by any of them even if it IS possible.

 

The Reds are fully aware of how unpleasent it will be, they just judge that stopping another breaking is worth a few months as an emotional wreck.

 

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

I'm still totally surprised that there aren't more (read: ANY) people who think that the Reds have walked into a trap.  This is the 2nd thread where it's come up, and still no takers.

UNQUOTE

 

I agree that its a trap, but one thats effect will be delayed. The Reds wont know straight away that theyre being messed with. That scene in KoD put Taim way up with Ishamael in my list of favorites. Ishamael/Moridin was way successful at certain points like with Artur Hawkwing and the Black Ajah, and Taim is showing potential with the Black Tower. "Remember the old saying."

[Luckers]

I honestly disagree--Taim lept on the opportunity, but it wasn't preplanned.

 

Nor do i think it will play out as he wants. Pevara's no idiot, and they do have the advantage of being able to kill with the bond, and compel with it to a limited degree.

[wvlr]

I honestly disagree--Taim lept on the opportunity, but it wasn't preplanned.

 

Nor do i think it will play out as he wants. Pevara's no idiot, and they do have the advantage of being able to kill with the bond, and compel with it to a limited degree.

Luckers, I agree with the first part but not with the second.

 

Just because they can use the Bond in that way with a normal man, does not guarentee that they will be able to with a Channeler. 

 

We have already seen with the Rand/Alanna bond and the Merise/Jahar bond that it is not all that easy for the AS to (Control) Male Channelers.  And until we see an AS try to use the Bond to Kill a Channeler - we will not be able to say with a "Certianty" that it will work. 

 

[Luckers]

Just because they can use the Bond in that way with a normal man, does not guarentee that they will be able to with a Channeler. 

 

We have already seen with the Rand/Alanna bond and the Merise/Jahar bond that it is not all that easy for the AS to (Control) Male Channelers.  And until we see an AS try to use the Bond to Kill a Channeler - we will not be able to say with a "Certianty" that it will work. 

 

We know precisely why a man cannot be compelled with the bond--its in the nature of saidin, and that would offer no protection from this.

 

The argument in absentia doesn't work--to suggest that this bond is different in effects because we have seen a single effect work differently provides no evidence since we know the exact reason, and paramters, for the change in that effect. Logically, therefore, there is no reason to suspect that the bond would not work exactly as it normally would--and for that matter the compulsive aspect would work normally too were the man not wrapped in saidin.

 

And just as a side note, Merise was concerned because she wasn't sure if she should have taken the dragon pin from Narishma or not. She'd never tried to compel him, nor was she concerned that she wouldn't have been able to.

 

It was a purely emotional dilemna.

[Navaros]

A lot of valid points here but I think I have a few ideas on this topic that might be interesting for the community. (Hope there’s still interest in this topic as the last reply is about week-old.)

 

Before considering the action of Reds going over to BT to bond AM, I think one has to ponder over the motivation of the Red Ajah as a whole. I’ve seen some topics on how the Reds will disband or find a new purpose or Ajahs will disband overall. My theory is however, that the Reds will not have to look for a new purpose, they have probably known what their purpose in TG will be for a long time. Two very important facts point in that direction, according to me. Firstly, in The Crown of Swords there is a mention that they are the largest Ajah at present. Considering that their known primary goal is to gentle men who can channel, it doesn’t make a lot of sense that they are the most numerous given the deteriorating number of channeling men over the years since the Breaking of the World. In addition, several passages in the books suggest that the Reds are a closed society and that friendships outside their own Ajah are strongly discouraged. This leads me to think that they have some secret, a secret so crucial that it needs to be protected at all costs, a secret telling of their purpose when TG comes, a secret that needs to remain hidden until the time is right. A hint telling us that the Reds may have realized the time to announce their new purpose is coming might be hidden in the first few chapters of The Great Hunt. In one of the talks between Amyrlin and Moiraine in Fal Dara they discuss recent events in WT and how strange it was that Greens and Reds seem to be cooperating. Although this might be a merely political move, it is also possible that Reds are looking for information on how to start working for their new goal – information on Warders, bonding and the like… Green sisters seem to be the logical choice in asking such questions. A third thing that I associate with the change in the Reds’ purpose is the fact that several of them swear fealty to Rand. This is attributed to Verin’s Compulsion but from what I understand this Talent in her is not very powerful and the “persuaded” need to find a reason within them to do as ordered. I can hardly see any option for them accepting to follow Rand other than the purpose of their Ajah changing to aid the Dragon. But enough of that for now  :)

 

Moving on to analyze the act itself, I think the most striking thing is the number of sisters in the group – six. Only six…certainly not threatening to the AM but at the same time a really insignificant number, not enough to make a difference in a BT with almost 1000 male channelers. Unless they are planning to bond 5-10 soldiers/Dedicated each the number of Warders they will get would be… expendable to the BT, to say the least. In my opinion, there is something else there – six AS… bond six AM… and we get a potential circle of 12 male and female channelers, only one female channeler short of a full 13 circle of men and women. Only missing the woman that is supposed to lead the circle perhaps? Now that would certainly be something powerful. We have to remember that the initial plan for sealing the Bore included a 13 male and female circle; that gives us an idea of how powerful such an entity is. It’s worth to mention here the conversation between Tarna and Pevara when they get Toveine’s note (which is most likely about the cleansing of saidin since it has to be Logain-approved). Tarna says that it doesn’t change the fact that they have to bond AM but makes it more urgent. On the other hand, Pevara says it changes the world maybe finally getting a clear confirmation that the Dragon is Reborn and that they have to assume their new goal. Still bonding AM but not for the sake of bonding or for the sake of establishing ties between WT and BT but for the sake of the world and winning TG/sealing DO.

 

I don’t know if that theory will appeal to anyone, it’s certainly not bullet-proof but can turn out to be not too far from the truth. Anyways, I’d be glad on some feedback and critique on my thinking in coming up with this.