My Wheel Theory..No KOD spoilers please i havent read it

[loosehead]

well heres my idea... its just been thought up so please no damning if its wrong :)

 

my idea.. that the whole history of RandLand is a wheel...

 

HENCE

 

1st Age the time of non-power intelligence BUT bore gets cut/bored/watever

 

2nd Age the age Rand and his buddies are in now

 

3rd Age... a pinnacle of power

 

4th Age to 6th Age just more industrialisation

 

7th Age a self destruct thingy where they lose everything they worked to get

 

there is my idea... rand and his friends are rediscovering lost talents... maybe they are becoming the AoL's again...

 

also on the blurb of all the books it says "the constant struggle between light and dark"

 

my opinion is that it is a game between the Creator and Dark One that us a cycle... and it has happened thousands of times before...therefore RAND could be the dragon reborn for like the 500 millionth time(hyperbolicism there)

 

my final idea is that RAND and his companions are going to break the wheel... they are going to "flatten" the pattern and make it possible for people to prosper forever though this part of the theory is extremely weak

 

THIS HAS BEEN EDITED

[Chang]

Hmmm... Interesting theory there loosehead.

 

Now you've given me some things to think on :D. If I come up with some more (I probably will ;)), I'll post another reply.

[Guest Majsju]

Well, there are seven Ages in a turning of the Wheel. The Age we're reading about now is called the 3rd, which makes the AOL the 2nd Age.

 

Now, the 1st Age more or less ended with the discovery of the One Power, hence we know that the ability to channel at some point must be lost to mankind, other wise it can't be discovered the next time the 1st Age is nearing it's end.

 

Given this, and also the hints at the 4th Age becoming a more industrialized Age doesn't really allow for the 4th Age to be a new AOL. It took the war of power and a breaking to end the AOL, but we know that even the memory of the DO must be lost to mankind before the AOL as we know it can come again.

 

That hints at Age 4-7, and most of Age 1 being more dedicated to science than magic, as a society based on science doesn't really allow for superstition, which the knowledge of the DO will turn into, before being completely lost.

[loki redfern]

there are suposed to be seven ages, i dont know were it says that but i'm sure it is somewhere and there should be that many spokes on wheel pictures too.

[dagwall]

I don't think your allocation of the ages quite works because arent't they supposed to be in the 3rd age right now. Isn't that what all that talk of the 3rd age at the beginning of the 1st chapter in every book about?

 

So I think it'd be more of:

 

AoL the time of prosperity BUT bore gets cut/bored/whatever

 

1st Age The breaking of the world

 

2nd Age Trolloc wars, hundred years war....

 

3rd Age the age Rand and his buddies are in now

 

 

Well I don't know how it would work out, the 1st and 2nd age I can only guess at and am probably wrong. I think my guesses are probably part of the 3rd age. But Rand is in the 3rd age and the bore was made in the AoL. I'm pretty sure about that.

[Jellybelly]

So I think it'd be more of:

 

AoL the time of prosperity BUT bore gets cut/bored/whatever

 

1st Age The breaking of the world

 

2nd Age Trolloc wars' date=' hundred years war....

 

3rd Age the age Rand and his buddies are in now

 

 

Well I don't know how it would work out, the 1st and 2nd age I can only guess at and am probably wrong. I think my guesses are probably part of the 3rd age. But Rand is in the 3rd age and the bore was made in the AoL. I'm pretty sure about that.[/quote']

 

I am having a few difficulties understanding just where you are going with this. The schematic portrayal of the ages that you present is definitely all wrong. Your discussion at the end is mostly correct, though. All the history we have in the books is of the Third Age, except for that pertaining to the Age of Legends, which was the Second Age.

 

Thus, consult Majsju's post for the correct overview. A short reiteration goes as follows:

 

First Age: Most likely our Age, in this fiction. A time of science. Likely ends with the discovery of the One Power.

 

Second Age: The Age of Legends. Ends with the War of Power

 

Third Age: The period of time from the Breaking of the World to Tarmon Gai'don.

 

The other ages? We have no idea.

[dagwall]

yeah I was responding to the first post which was much different this morning than it is now, and the posts explaining 7 ages were made while I wrote. hehe I might check for posts made while I type in the future but I don't see it actually happening.

 

My point had really been that the first poster couldn't be right because Rand is in the 3rd age and I tried (badly it seems) to put some order to what they started with. I myself did not remember anything about there being 7 ages.

[Kadere]

It states in the Glossary of Eye of the World:

 

"Time is a wheel with seven spokes, each spoke an Age. As the Wheel turns, the Ages come and go, each leaving memories that fade to legend, then to myth, and are forgotten by the time that Age comes again. The Pattern of an Age is slightly different each time an Age comes, and each time it is subject to greater change." (TEotW,Glossary)

 

As has already been stated the First Age was something like ours, and ended around the finding of the Power. The Second Age was the Age of Legends and ended with the Breaking of the World. The Third Age is the one involving Rand. The Fourth Age we have yet to get to, but it is theorized that it will involve either science and the power coexisting, or just science.

[Ludmian]

I am having a few difficulties understanding just where you are going with this. The schematic portrayal of the ages that you present is definitely all wrong. Your discussion at the end is mostly correct' date=' though. All the history we have in the books is of the Third Age, except for that pertaining to the Age of Legends, which was the Second Age.

 

Thus, consult Majsju's post for the correct overview. A short reiteration goes as follows:

 

First Age: Most likely our Age, in this fiction. A time of science. Likely ends with the discovery of the One Power.

 

Second Age: The Age of Legends. Ends with the War of Power

 

Third Age: The period of time from the Breaking of the World to Tarmon Gai'don.

 

The other ages? We have no idea.[/quote']

 

Yes, the 1st age is likely to be our age (and as RJ has clearly stated that Randland is our world, there must be a place for the known history of mankind in his universe). It’s only logical for the final, 7th age to end with such a great destruction that all the evidence of it is wiped out, mankind is reduced to the primitive level and starts its development anew (though the memory of the past age may have been preserved in the ancient myths of the golden age). For this reason it’s less likely to be the 5th, 6th, or 7th, though such a possibility remains, and it’s surely not the fourth (the pieces of writing from the 4th age used in the books certainly don’t come from any period of the known history of mankind). The second age is surely AoL, the third age is Rand’s time. The fourth age will probably be the age in which the ability to channel disappears and a new technology appears, though it, probably won’t be like the technology of our age at all. The 5th and 6th age then will be the growth of that technology. The 7th age may be something like the future described in Herbert Wells’s Time Machine. I hope the question of ages will be made clear in the Encyclopedia.

[hapazard]

What aboute a cyclic universe?

 

There are theoris in modern astronomy that the universe has a cyclic or "pulsing" nature;

Big Bang, expansion, collapse, back to Big Bang.

 

Couldn't the ages be set somwhere between?

The firtst age (us) from the creation of universe to the discovery of the one power and the 7th age from som unknown mark in human history to the destruction of universe.

 

An intresting thing to consider is that as mass density increases, time slows. And as the stage before Big Bang would mean that an infinite mass would have to fit in an finite space time would cease to exist. (infinit mass density- zero time flow)

 

This would obviusly mean the complete wipe out of memories from previus ages thet the Age of Legends call for.

 

Then at som point (or rather as time caeses directly) after the collaps the Big Bang would happen and universe would be re-created, If everything happens as before the same ages will come to pass again.

 

The only memory of the past universe would be that from the eternal soals of sentient beings in the books, as when Ishy says that he and Rand have met and fought a infinite number of times in the past.

 

And this would go on in eternity, each set of ages from creation to destruction spanning hundreds of billions of years. The wheel spinnig forever!

[MetalMonkeyMood]

What aboute a cyclic universe?

 

I thought that was the very premise behind RJ's books. A wheel with seven spokes, each spoke representing an age that had already past and that would one day come again. Not sure about the big bang thing though, that seems a bit too far in the past for my liking. if you give each age a maximum length of 10,000 years or so (which is probably far too much as it is), then seven ages - a full rotation - is 70,000 years, far too close to apply a big bang theory to it.

Interesting application of the Wheel of Time though, we are actually IN the Wheel and don't know it :)

[hapazard]

Yeah...

 

But if you think aboute it, why should the ages be less than 10 000 years?

 

The only ages we know somthing aboute is the second and third. We know that the second probalbly was less then 10 000 years long and the third is sure gonna be shorter still.

 

But (and this is a big but) we know absolutly nothing aboute the other ages. If we start with the assumption that our age is the first and we are living in the wheel of time universe, modern science har proved that earth alone is +4 billion years and the universe perhaps twice that.

 

As we hasn't during the exploration of our world seen anything that indicates a human culture pre to ours, and in fact, the modern human race seems to have been aboute for only a 100 000 years! Combined with modern knowledge aboute genetics that firmly places us an a tree of life less then 2 billion year old it seems as there hasn't been any ages before our's in this universe.

 

I can't think of anything that would wipe away any trace of civilisation and still leave enough organisms and time for it all to start over on this planet.

 

The logical answer is that everything modern science tells us about the world is true, but we just haven't seen it all yet. Becouse it haven't happend yet!

 

Then it makes sense with ages billions of years long

[Ludmian]

An interesting theory and considering that RJ has a background in physics it wouldn’t be strange for him to invent something like this, but still I think it’s wrong. First of all, it would be rather far-fetched, IMO, to suppose that the first age lasted billions of years, and the second and third ages only a few thousand years. Imagine a wheel with spokes so unevenly placed.

 

And what is more important, each book starts with a passage about the wheel of time that turns, leaving memories that fade to myths, and even myth is long forgotten when the same age comes again. (Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that’s the word RJ uses every time, forgotten). I doubt that RJ wrote this passage with the Big bang in mind. If something is forgotten, it means that there are people who can forget it, that humanity continues its physical existence. As for why there are no traces of the seventh age now, I’ve already said that it’s likely to have been like the future described in Wells’s Time Machine (only without those underground creatures). Imagine humanity living for three thousand years using up the achievements of the previous age, without so much as building a house themselves. There must have already been little traces of the past ages left by the end of the 7th age. Then, for instance, the climate might have changed or something else might have happened that made their life intolerable, most of the population would have died out, and the few survivors would start to make stone axes and hunt animals, having only a memory of a happier time, that would soon fade to the myth of the golden age.

[Inara]

ok, why does the first age have to be the begining of the universe, the first age could be the dawn of homo sapien, or even the first sedentry civilisation, then the ages would be more uniform in size. the formation/destruction of the universe could be occuring between the ages, it has not bearing on the history of man, so...is not chronicled by 'him'

[MetalMonkeyMood]

...plus you have the whole "breaking of the world" thing, I'm pretty sure that would bury the vast majority of any ancient artifacts and remains. Although I do remember many instances where real modern day events/items/people were referenced...

[Ludmian]

ok' date=' why does the first age have to be the begining of the universe, the first age could be the dawn of homo sapien, or even the first sedentry civilisation, then the ages would be more uniform in size. the formation/destruction of the universe could be occuring between the ages, it has not bearing on the history of man, so...is not chronicled by 'him'[/quote']

 

Exactly. I also have an impression that ages in Jordan's universe apply only to human history, not to the entire universe.

 

...plus you have the whole "breaking of the world" thing' date=' I'm pretty sure that would bury the vast majority of any ancient artifacts and remains. Although I do remember many instances where real modern day events/items/people were referenced...[/quote']

 

Exactly. If a lot of AoL artefacts have survived the breaking, it's no surprise that a few things from our (the 1st) age can be found in the third age, especially taking into account that we have no evidence that the 1st age ended with a mass destruction. But in my previous post I was explaining why we don't find any evidence of past ages in our age.

 

By the way, the fact that in the third age some artefacts from our age have been preserved, and in our age we don't see any evidence of the past ages is one more proof that our age is the 1st one.

[Inara]

a wheel is continuous, therfore any assignation of numbers to each age is an arbitrary construct of humanity, as is the wheel.

i think it is unlikely that the DO and the creator percive time in this way too

so our age, relative to that which is called the third age, is 2 before it, so it is called the first, but my point is that the stone tools scenario of human history may be the '7th' age or the '6th' even.

what if 'classical' legend was actually the 6th age...do you think it is fading into myth fast enough?

ok. so its 2 am and i'm posting in circles again, so be gentle if i missed anything obvious.

ta

[hapazard]

You don't get the point. do you?

 

My point is:

 

If the whole thing was supposed to have happened before on our planet, there would have hadto been such an extinction at the end of the 7:th age that life would be completly wiped out from the face of earth!

 

It's not enough to reduce humankind back to stonage.

 

Why?

 

1. We know for a fact that humans have existed on this planet for at most a couple of 100 000 years.

 

2. A mere 100 000 years is to little time for 7 ages to pass if you have to invent metalworking and such in the beginning. Wich would make our time the first turning of the wheel wich we know it isn't! (note that this would make the first age + 5 billion years!)

 

3. Look at the wildlife, rats and insects survive nuclear explosion and yet on distand islands we didn't find any rats. If there were ages on this planet before life would have to be completly wipedout and then start over from scratch. Not enough time!

 

4. Note that such an catastrof wouldn't leave any humans behind to remember legends.

 

Therefore the wheels cyclic nature can't be applaid to earth, not withoute, denying all science thet is!

 

It can't be another planet in this universe either,once again the time factor! life takes to long time to come into beeing.

 

So, it has to be a cyclic universe if:

 

a)The wheel of time is set in our world

b) this isn't the firts turning of the wheel (known for a fact!)

c)We accept the "truths" of science.

 

The memory thing could be explained by the heros of the horn and such, eternal souls reborn over and over again who might remember bits and pieces of earlier lives and incorporate them into legends.

[Leafburner]

I wonder, does the Dragon get reborn in each age to fight the DO? If so, there would be dragons who knew nothing of channeling. How do they fight the DO if they can't channel?

[Ludmian]

a wheel is continuous' date=' therfore any assignation of numbers to each age is an arbitrary construct of humanity, as is the wheel.

i think it is unlikely that the DO and the creator percive time in this way too

so our age, relative to that which is called the third age, is 2 before it, so it is called the first, but my point is that the stone tools scenario of human history may be the '7th' age or the '6th' even.

what if 'classical' legend was actually the 6th age...do you think it is fading into myth fast enough?

ok. so its 2 am and i'm posting in circles again, so be gentle if i missed anything obvious.

ta[/quote']

 

I doubt that the numbers of ages are totally arbitrary. Imagine that you are to assign the numbers to the ages. Would you label what seems to be the starting point of human civilization as the 6th or 7th age? And what then should happen in the 1st age, to make this age as the starting point, rather than the stone age.

 

You don't get the point. do you?

 

My point is:

 

If the whole thing was supposed to have happened before on our planet' date=' there would have hadto been such an extinction at the end of the 7:th age that life would be completly wiped out from the face of earth!

 

It's not enough to reduce humankind back to stonage.

 

Why?

 

1. We know for a fact that humans have existed on this planet for at most a couple of 100 000 years.

 

2. A mere 100 000 years is to little time for 7 ages to pass if you have to invent metalworking and such in the beginning. Wich would make our time the first turning of the wheel wich we know it isn't! (note that this would make the first age + 5 billion years!)

 

3. Look at the wildlife, rats and insects survive nuclear explosion and yet on distand islands we didn't find any rats. If there were ages on this planet before life would have to be completly wipedout and then start over from scratch. Not enough time!

 

4. Note that such an catastrof wouldn't leave any humans behind to remember legends.

 

Therefore the wheels cyclic nature can't be applaid to earth, not withoute, denying all science thet is!

 

It can't be another planet in this universe either,once again the time factor! life takes to long time to come into beeing.

 

So, it has to be a cyclic universe if:

 

a)The wheel of time is set in our world

b) this isn't the firts turning of the wheel (known for a fact!)

c)We accept the "truths" of science.

 

The memory thing could be explained by the heros of the horn and such, eternal souls reborn over and over again who might remember bits and pieces of earlier lives and incorporate them into legends.[/quote']

 

WoT is to a large extent based on mythology, the very idea of cyclic time is from there, and the ancients' ideas of the universe, the earth and their origin were very different from ours. I'm not sure if it's correct to try applying all modern scientific data to Jordan's universe.

 

By the way, does anybody know if Jordan has said anything about the order of the ages? I can't believe nobody has asked him about it before, or at least has come up with a plausible theory, but there's nothing on this subject in the FAQs.