R.J. didn't lie but "Mazrim Taim" is Demandred

[Hybrid]

An alternate (and IMHO far more likely) explanation is that Taim is the protege of one of the Forsaken.

[Mr Ares]

Its not proof that Taim is Demandred, but Taim is definitely not of the current Age.

So who is he? We know he isn't Demandred, Sammael died, he can't be Balthamel/Aran'gar or Aginor/Osan'gar, him channeling saidar might raise some eyebrows so we can rule out the women, Be'lal was balefired, as was Rahvin, Asmo died the final death, which leaves only Moridin. And Rand knows what Moridin looks like, and it's not Taim. And Moridin uses TP, which would also be something his fellow Asha'man might notice, as well as the link to Rand and its side effects. Quite simply, he cannot be any of the Chosen. Taim is Taim. No-one else. Hybrid's answer is a far better one.

[Sabio]

Taim is of this age, who I still think went to Rand for protection, decided to serve him then like Sammael and Demandred didn't like being second to the Dragon so his ambition let him be tempted to join the DO.  Most likely by Aran'gar.

[Vassili]

"Its interesting you should ask us to kill the Lord Dragon, M'Hael. Demandred has asked very much the same thing. If I may ask, are you in contact?

You fool, I AM Demandred."

 

Pg.70 Winter's Heart. Seriously, people, read your prologues.

[Mr Ares]

"Its interesting you should ask us to kill the Lord Dragon, M'Hael. Demandred has asked very much the same thing. If I may ask, are you in contact?

You fool, I AM Demandred."

 

Pg.70 Winter's Heart. Seriously, people, read your prologues.

I read page 70 of Winter's Heart, and didn't see anything relevant. It was a Rand POV. However, there is a part in chapter 22 (Out of Thin Air), in a Kisman POV, where he remembers Taim, Demandred and Moridin all giving similar sets of orders, which is a bit like what you posted. But that has already been brought up. As has the bit at the Cleansing where Demandred fails to recognise Flinn, and RJ's statements about Taim not being Demandred. It's all been covered. Seriously, person, read the thread. There's a good bit about kilts and skirts earlier in it, but I don't think anyone's actually been arguing in favour of Taimandred for a while.

[Vassili]

If anyone here were to take my quote seriously, it would be you ;)

[Guest Dreadlord]

Taim is DEFINITELY from this Age, this can be gathered by RJs responses to several questions.

 

First of all, RJ said Taim looked older than he was when Rand first saw him, this being the result of long and hard travel. Also, RJ was explaining about channelers aging slower, and RJ said since it wasnt going to be explained in the books he said that men slow later than women, and that Taim has begun slowing. So Taim is of this Age and thus, not spawn of any Forsaken

[Mik]

Taim is DEFINITELY from this Age, this can be gathered by RJs responses to several questions.

Speaking of wich...

Riddle me this..riddle me that.

 

let's do a little poll;

Who do you first think of, when you read the following words;

*manical laughter from the Shadows*

 

So, who is Taim?

Exactly!

 

Your own words contradict you, Dreadlord.

RJ said it...and as with the rest of his writing, he hid it so well, that noone picked up- the patterns.  :'(

[Sabio]

So the plan was Demandred is Taim, declares himeself the dragon reborn, gets captured by the Aes Sedai, escapes, goes to Rand, gives Rand a seal to the DO's prison, just so he can go around and find male channelers and train them for Rand and some for the DO?

[triadruid]

Nope. Even if Taim was Demandred (which he's not), he wasn't Demandred when he was declaring himself to be the DR and getting captured. That all happened too early in the timeline. It was strongly hinted for a time that he took Taim's place when Taim showed up in Caemlyn, but RJ killed that six ways til Sunday.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Mik I dont understand how my own words contradict myself. Explain? RJs answers show that Taim has been channeling for a few years, definitely more than Rand, but if Taim was...oh, I dont know, Demandred? Billions upon billions of evidence to PROVE that wrong.

 

Maniacal laughter from the shadows? What does that have to do with anything? RJs answers didnt give anything away, it just shows that Taim is definitely from this Age, otherwise RJ wouldnt have answered.

 

Taim is NOT Demandred!!! Demandred would recognise Flynn at the Cleansing for one thing, which he didnt in his own POV so we would know about that. Aside from that, RJ announced just before the release of book 10 that we havent seen Demandred use an alter ego. So unless you think Demandred didnt use Taims face until after book 9 Sabio, you're wrong like the hordes of others who thought he was Taim. Never mind.

 

Taim is Taim, nobody else involved, plain good old Taim. No secret identity, no significant or active past life, hes just a guy that went over to the Shadow for the cheap n nasties.

[Sabio]

Ummm I was being sarcastic.

[Mik]

Mik I dont understand how my own words contradict myself. Explain?

 

.../snip/...

 

Maniacal laughter from the shadows? What does that have to do with anything?

You said "Taim is DEFINITELY from this Age, this can be gathered by RJs responses to several questions."

 

Well, RJ once responded in a question about Taim with;

“Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal laughter from the shadows!>”

 

Sure, sure... Taim isn't Demandred. You know it.. I know it. But the true answer lies in the second part of what RJ wrote:

Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal laughter from the shadows!>”

 

All I asked you was;

Who do you think off first, in relation to the Wheel of Time, when someone describes a person as;

Maniacal laughter from the shadows.

RJ most have been snickering when he wrote that reply.

 

Ok ok Dread.. I'll spell it out;

RJ was telling us -right there and then- that "No, offcourse Taim isn't Demandred. And you know what? Simple and straightforward, it's that shadowy maniac we all know as Ba'alzamon.. no wait..Ishamael..oh darn..I mean Moridin.. Oh heck.. that's Taim!

 

And by the way in another of RJ's answers or blog he wrote something like.. you spell it Tah-eeeeem or whatever.. because well.. Moridin is never taim.

That whole spelling lesson in his blog was a big RJ hoax.. to tell us all that Taim isn't himself anymore..he's Moridin.

He must have been laughing there too!

 

RJs answers didnt give anything away, it just shows that Taim is definitely from this Age, otherwise RJ wouldnt have answered.

Aha!

I beg to differ! (as I stated earlier...)

Like good ol' RJ himself told us himself when he was in our midst;

Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you.

There has always been only one Aes Sedai. And he -may he rest in peace- immagined the other ones.

 

Get it?

[Hybrid]

Is that a joke?  Seriously, I've heard the Moridin theories before, but none of them have ever offered an ounce of fact to back them up.

 

And by the way in another of RJ's answers or blog he wrote something like.. you spell it Tah-eeeeem or whatever.. because well.. Moridin is never taim.

You're reading way too much into that.  RJ was telling people how to pronounce Taim's name.  In WOT, the ai is pronounced as "ah-ee," not "ay."

 

As for your simple and straightforward quote, I'd say that the most simple and straightforward solution is Taim none other than... *drumroll* ...Mazrim Taim himself!

 

Who do you think off first, in relation to the Wheel of Time, when someone describes a person as;

Maniacal laughter from the shadows.

Lews Therin?  Padan Fain?  Moridin hasn't ever laughed.

[Mik]

Hey man. Whatever floats your boat.

If you want to believe I'm reading too much into what RJ said.. go ahead and laugh like a maniac in the shadows.

 

I like to entertain the thought that Taim is dead and that Moridin is posing as him.

I like to think RJ put more in his words then what you think. It fits his MO, considering the books he writes & how he writes them, prophesy, dreaming, double meanings and all that.

 

And just to show how wrong you are about Moridin, you might want to reread the chapter/prologue where he is playing "both sides of the board" in a game of Sha'rah (he's playing it alone too!)

I'm betting my left kidney he's laughing like the maniac he is, spilling wine with tears in his eyes..  hee hee heeee!

 

Oh well, I must be wrong... but maybe I just planted a little seed of doubt there.

 

You are right about one thing though.

It's the first time I ever saw anyone mention this.

That doesn't make it wrong though.

I mean. This is the internet. Everyone tells the same over and over again.

 

 

 

 

[Sabio]

Well if he did pose at Taim, when did it happen?  Why have a Forsaken in the black tower if you are just going to pose as the Black Tower's boss?  Would make no sense for Taim to be a Forsaken.  Why would Mordin pretend to be Taim and order the Asha'man to kill Rand?  He could just do it as Moridin.

 

Taim is just Taim, a power hungry guy who disliked having to be under Rand.

[Mik]

Well if he did pose at Taim, when did it happen?

Cadsuane & company caught Taim & put him into other Aes Sedai custody for trial at the White Tower. The trip took longer then expected for some reason. Some Aes Sedai who had him in their custody died when Taim was (ahum) "freed". Incidently, Ishy there -who died a horrible horrible death at the hands of our young hero- is in need of a nice body. Noone knew for a period of time where Taim was.

Do the math. Taim (the real one) is kidnapped by Black Sisters. The non-blacks of the Aes Sedai Custody team get offed. Taim is killed. Presto! Fresh, young body for Mister Shadowy Maniac!

 

Why have a Forsaken in the black tower if you are just going to pose as the Black Tower's boss?

He's the top dog in the Black Tower. He's calling the shots. He can influence Rand directly from there. Mano a mano. He 'helps' Rand into deciding to make men into weapons! Not people.. weapons. Osan'gar is a lab-rat in a world without labs! Where would you have him go?

Besides, Moridin can't be Taim 24/10. He's out "scouting" for new recruits a lot..ofcourse. He might as well have a Forsaken think he's their spy in the Black Tower and get reports from him next to his own dealings there. You think Mesaana runs the White Tower opps?

 

Would make no sense for Taim to be a Forsaken.

(unfounded) opininion. All I can say is. I think it does. Yah versus nay.

 

Why would Mordin pretend to be Taim and order the Asha'man to kill Rand?

He's Chaos personified, I guess. Because he likes his cronies to think Him and Taim are two seperate entities. There's more to Ishy then meets the proverbial eye.

 

He could just do it as Moridin.

In fact. He did! See above.

 

Taim is just Taim, a power hungry guy who disliked having to be under Rand.

Nay.

[Hybrid]

Well if he did pose at Taim, when did it happen?

Cadsuane & company caught Taim & put him into other Aes Sedai custody for trial at the White Tower. The trip took longer then expected for some reason. Some Aes Sedai who had him in their custody died when Taim was (ahum) "freed". Incidently, Ishy there -who died a horrible horrible death at the hands of our young hero- is in need of a nice body. Noone knew for a period of time where Taim was.

Do the math. Taim (the real one) is kidnapped by Black Sisters. The non-blacks of the Aes Sedai Custody team get offed. Taim is killed. Presto! Fresh, young body for Mister Shadowy Maniac!

Moridin is not in Taim's body.  Why?  Rand has seen Moridin.  Twice.

 

And just to show how wrong you are about Moridin, you might want to reread the chapter/prologue where he is playing "both sides of the board" in a game of Sha'rah (he's playing it alone too!)

Moridin can play both sides of the board without impersonating Taim.  For example, a far more likely scenario is that Taim is now Moridin's protege.

[Sabio]

Well I can't think of anything in the book to support most of your theories, and many make no sense. 

 

1. Ishy got a new body, the body he became Moridin in.

2. When Rand chased Sam to SL, you are suggesting Moridin stopped posing as Taim in Illian, changed into Moridin and went to SL and saved Rand. Then was back in Illian waiting for Rand to come back?

3. Mordin gave Rand a seal to the DO's prison?

4. Why would they even need Taim's body for Moridin?  Taking a body of such a well known person goes against every other body that has been taken.  Unknown people who would be easy to impersonate.  Not well known fugitives.

5. The point of putting Osan'gar in the black tower was to tempt Taim and keep an eye on things.  Same as where Mesana in the White Tower, Asan'gar with the rebels, and Semi with the Seachan.  Having a Forsaken spy on the Black  Tower if you are already the leader of it is a waste of resources.

 

 

[Mik]

Moridin is not in Taim's body.  Why?  Rand has seen Moridin.  Twice.

Bashere has seen Taim. Then when he sees 'Taim' in LoC, he doubts his looks. It's slightly different. "I shaved"...uhuh. Then there's the comment about "serve and obey"... and Bashere. Freaks. Out.

 

No description of Taim exists pre LoC. The Taim we get to see in LoC, is Moridin, but slightly altered with the True Power. Not that hard. Not detectable.

 

And just to show how wrong you are about Moridin, you might want to reread the chapter/prologue where he is playing "both sides of the board" in a game of Sha'rah (he's playing it alone too!)

Moridin can play both sides of the board without impersonating Taim.  For example, a far more likely scenario is that Taim is now Moridin's protege.

Funny how all of a sudden you don't mention the laughter you were asking for.

What you consider 'far more likely', I consider a possibility, but I think there's more then enough bits and pieces to puzzle out that Taim is Moridin.

 

[Mik]

Well I can't think of anything in the book to support most of your theories, and many make no sense.

Actually, this is just one theory. And an awfully small part at that. You should see the rest. It will make your eyes bleed.

 

1. Ishy got a new body, the body he became Moridin in.

We agree! Ishy got a new body, the body he became Moridin in. It happened to be Taims. Not coincidental ofcourse.

 

2. When Rand chased Sam to SL, you are suggesting Moridin stopped posing as Taim in Illian, changed into Moridin and went to SL and saved Rand. Then was back in Illian waiting for Rand to come back?

What makes you think Taim was in Illian at that point in time? You're the one making stuff up. "Taim" doesn't need to take orders from anyone, except maybe The Lord Dragon (and oh my.. is that asking a lot of his barely contained self-control). Add to that, that he can Travel undetected in more ways then 'One'. Add to that his 'recruit-trips' excuse. When Rand was fighting Sammael in SL, "Taim" was right there.

 

3. Mordin gave Rand a seal to the DO's prison?

So? It's -just- a focus point, and a failing one at that. A breaking hinge on a door that isn't really holding back much anymore anyhow. Besides, Moridin realised all too well Herid Fel was a danger to his plans. Judging from his reactions Taim was more worried when Rand tried to break it.

 

4. Why would they even need Taim's body for Moridin?  Taking a body of such a well known person goes against every other body that has been taken.  Unknown people who would be easy to impersonate.  Not well known fugitives.

Au contraire, mon ami.

Taims was the only body that could get close to Rand without being suspected of being a Forsaken. He and Logain were the only ones who were known channelers before the Forsaken were released. Rand even asks Taim to be wary of new recruits learning too fast. Oh the irony! The recruit who learned too fast is in front of him, but how was Rand to know? Lews Therin knows though.. if only you could look passed his 'mad'(ahum) ramblings.

 

5. The point of putting Osan'gar in the black tower was to tempt Taim and keep an eye on things.  Same as where Mesana in the White Tower, Asan'gar with the rebels, and Semi with the Seachan.  Having a Forsaken spy on the Black  Tower if you are already the leader of it is a waste of resources.

Moridins having Rand listen to his 'advice', guiding his hand where he can, is enough for him to be his nurse if he had to. Only one thing matters to Moridin; shape the Dragon Reborn so, that Shai'tans freedom is asured.

Osan'gar.. is nothing more then a dagger.. a left-handed one at that. ;)

Just one more weapon in the arsenal.

[Hybrid]

Funny how all of a sudden you don't mention the laughter you were asking for.

What you consider 'far more likely', I consider a possibility, but I think there's more then enough bits and pieces to puzzle out that Taim is Moridin.

 

What laughter?  ???

Does Moridin laugh there?

 

Bashere has seen Taim. Then when he sees 'Taim' in LoC, he doubts his looks. It's slightly different. "I shaved"...uhuh. Then there's the comment about "serve and obey"... and Bashere. Freaks. Out.

RJ already explained this.  Taim was on the run.  Hardly likely he was getting three meals a day and ten hours of sleep.  Hunger and stress (and shaving) can actually alter a person's looks.

 

What is this about "serve and obey"?  Can you quote it?

 

No description of Taim exists pre LoC. The Taim we get to see in LoC, is Moridin, but slightly altered with the True Power. Not that hard. Not detectable.

Why would Moridin bother altering Taim's body?  That makes 0 sense.

[Mik]

*grmbls* I should actually be finishing my theory... :/

That would explain the whole of it, but heck.. here is a small section that answers your questions below. Enjoy.

 

Funny how all of a sudden you don't mention the laughter you were asking for.

What you consider 'far more likely', I consider a possibility, but I think there's more then enough bits and pieces to puzzle out that Taim is Moridin.

What laughter?  ???

Does Moridin laugh there?

Yes he does. he is quite the maniac there! (and that is what sparked your first question). see the next quote.

 

Fury boiled suddenly in Moridin’s head, and black flecks swam across his eyes as he seized the True Power. Ecstasy that amounted to pain thundered through him.

 

…/ /…Slowly he set the Fisher back on the board. Slowly his fingers uncurled from around the cour’souvra. There was no need for destruction. Yet. Icy calm replaced rage in the blink of an eye.

 

…/ /…He realized he was laughing, and made no effort to stop. On the board, the Fisher stood waiting, but in the greater game, al’Thor moved already to his wishes. And soon, now . . . It was very hard to lose a game when you played both sides of the board. Moridin laughed so hard that tears rolled down his face, but he was not aware of them.(TPOD, Prologue)

There ya go.

 

Bashere has seen Taim. Then when he sees 'Taim' in LoC, he doubts his looks. It's slightly different. "I shaved"...uhuh. Then there's the comment about "serve and obey"... and Bashere. Freaks. Out.

RJ already explained this.  Taim was on the run.  Hardly likely he was getting three meals a day and ten hours of sleep.  Hunger and stress (and shaving) can actually alter a person's looks.

No. Taim was not 'on the run'. If you go back and look what RJ actually said about that. I'll quote it for you;

 

you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet.  He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone.

I know it's all individual interpretation and I can understand how one reads that quote as "Taim made a hard journey". And in fact, I agree to an extend. But I think the journey is slightly different then the one you guys suggest. He didn't actively go to Caemlyn. He was taken to Shayol Ghul and killed. His body was rode hard and put away wet. After that it went to Caemlyn with a new mind & soul, making the flight long and difficult, so to speak. And ofcourse that has a wearing effect on anyone.

Look at it this way; did anyone ever ask Rand; "is it really you, when he

arrived at Tear after his long run in TDR? No, ofcourse not. Rand got hardly any sleep, was hunted and followed relentlesly by friends and foe alike and yet, noone questioned it being him. What does that say about Taim's excuse of shaving? (and fyi; even the shaving argument & the regular hard journey by RJ are inconsistent. So whós'lying here?)

 

What is this about "serve and obey"?  Can you quote it?

Sure I can;

 

What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim [speaking of'"himself" in the third person?] will?” Focused on Bashere, he seemed unaware of his guards, or their swords still hovering near his ribs. “I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives.” The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. “They shouldn’t have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they’ll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won’t be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers.”

 

“Taim,” Bashere growled, hand darting for his hilt, “you . . . !”

And yes, that makes Bashere a darkfriend, because he realises someone just said it out loud and his first reaction is to draw a sword and end the threat of his exposure. it takes him a while to realise he's standing in front of someone even higher up the Darkffriend-foodchain (the top in fact) There's more though, but it's another discusion. (I think Bashere & Taim are the Serpents in the bossom)

 

No description of Taim exists pre LoC. The Taim we get to see in LoC, is Moridin, but slightly altered with the True Power. Not that hard. Not detectable.

Why would Moridin bother altering Taim's body?  That makes 0 sense.

He didn't alter much, I bet. But it's kinda nice to not have saa show in his eyes, for instance. I don't understand your comment about it not making sense. Moridin doesn't want anyone to know (not even the other Forsaken) he's masquerading as Taim. It makes sense to alter your looks a tad. And why not use the undetectable "True" Power..?

[Luckers]

Bashere has seen Taim. Then when he sees 'Taim' in LoC, he doubts his looks. It's slightly different. "I shaved"...uhuh. Then there's the comment about "serve and obey"... and Bashere. Freaks. Out.

 

RJ directly stated that the reason Bashere doesn't recognise Taim is because Taim had been travelling hard, and looked about ten years older--which is also the reason Rand mistakes his age.

 

We agree! Ishy got a new body, the body he became Moridin in. It happened to be Taims. Not coincidental ofcourse.

 

By description Taim and Moridin look nothing alike.

 

 

 

I'm sorry Mik, Taim is not Moridin. For starters we know that they are very different in appearence--Taim would therefore need to be maintaining a constant Illusion, and Illusions do not hold in the face of such difference. It would have been pierced, just like how Mesaana's dress shows up under her Illusion.

 

From there we have the fact that Moridin issued different orders to Kisman than Taim. Somewhat confusing if they are the same person.

 

No description of Taim exists pre LoC. The Taim we get to see in LoC, is Moridin, but slightly altered with the True Power. Not that hard. Not detectable.

 

Not that possible. We have no evidence to suggest such a thing could be done. Furthermore, why would it be done if his purpose was to impersonate Taim.

 

Also, there is the fact that Moridin looks nothing like Taim.

 

I know it's all individual interpretation and I can understand how one reads that quote as "Taim made a hard journey". And in fact, I agree to an extend. But I think the journey is slightly different then the one you guys suggest. He didn't actively go to Caemlyn. He was taken to Shayol Ghul and killed. His body was rode hard and put away wet. After that it went to Caemlyn with a new mind & soul, making the flight long and difficult, so to speak. And ofcourse that has a wearing effect on anyone.

 

I'm sorry, but there is not room for interpretation there--RJ specifically cites that it was the journey to Caemlyn that was difficult--if he were Moridin he would have travelled there, and thats not difficult.

 

Moridin also had no fear of being hunted, yet RJ directly stated that was the reason for Taim's travel. You can't get around that.

 

Quote

What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim [speaking of'"himself" in the third person?] will?” Focused on Bashere, he seemed unaware of his guards, or their swords still hovering near his ribs. “I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives.” The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. “They shouldn’t have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they’ll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won’t be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers.”

 

“Taim,” Bashere growled, hand darting for his hilt, “you . . . !”

And yes, that makes Bashere a darkfriend, because he realises someone just said it out loud and his first reaction is to draw a sword and end the threat of his exposure. it takes him a while to realise he's standing in front of someone even higher up the Darkffriend-foodchain (the top in fact) There's more though, but it's another discusion. (I think Bashere & Taim are the Serpents in the bossom)

 

That is the single worst argument I've ever seen. I'm sorry man, I wish i could put that more smoothly... but seriously?

 

He didn't alter much, I bet. But it's kinda nice to not have saa show in his eyes, for instance. I don't understand your comment about it not making sense. Moridin doesn't want anyone to know (not even the other Forsaken) he's masquerading as Taim. It makes sense to alter your looks a tad. And why not use the undetectable "True" Power..?

 

Taim and Moridin look nothing alike. He did not alter Taim--Taim is hook-nosed with dark skin. Moridin is pale-skinned with a wide jaw.

[Guest Dreadlord]

You cant hide the saa, or at least I dont remember anything hinting you can. The only way is Illusion. If Moridin is Taim, that would mean all this time Moridin has either been channeling a True Power disguise all this time, which I very strongly doubt as channeling that much of the True Power would wreck Moridins mind too fast (and we dont know that True Power weaves can be tied off), or he has been channeling the disguise with inverted weaves, which again I doubt.

 

Aside from all that, Moridin and Taim are too different personality-wise. Moridin is the manipulator, the one who gets you to do stuff without you realising he is using you. Taim is way too upfront and abrupt, too direct and in-your-face, for it to be Moridin, unless Moridin has been acting both sides of a double edged sword. I cant see him doing that, especially after the link between him and Rand was formed, mostly because Moridin doesnt know what effects the link has and would probably be scared of Rand finding him out with the link itself. Also, I cannot believe that Rand sees Moridins true face through a disguise, inverted Saidin or True Power because of the  link at all