Morgase and Elayne

[Mysterious]

 

As for Manetheren, Mat has no right there. He refused to show up in Shadow rising to help his fellow villager. All because of what? That his mother might not let him leave two-river again? Despite being Taveren?He was in less risk than Perrin was. He wasn't black listed in COL book.

 

 

 

Mat was told that he had to go to Rhuidean or he would die. I'm not entirely sure but I think he has memories of fighting in defence of Manetheren when it fell. I believe that gives him a right as to what will happen but maybe not unilaterally raising the banner himself. He also leads one of the best trained fighting force in Randland equipped with gunpowder.

 

Perrin isn't going to raise Manetheren. And Fail has no right in this part either. Her involvement may very well become catastrophic. She is a Saldean and Andora'n doesn't like outsider influence in their soil. Whole Andor will rise against Faile, if they interprete her involvement as "Saldean Conspiracy to have a bit from Anodor". They didn't even tolerated Rand. And what is Fail compared to Rand? "Dust in the wind". Beside, faile will probably be busy ruling Saldea. I have a feeling that Tenobia isn't going to make it through Termon Gaidon.

 

Just because Faile doesn't have the right doesn't mean she won't do it anyway. Plus she's beloved in the Two Rivers, they'll most likely follow where she leads.

 

Beside, Elayne will have Cairhein as well. So how strong she will become??May be the strongest queen of Andor. And if Rand stay neutral on Manethran issue, who can stand against her? Consider the White tower, consider whole might of Andor and consider Cairhein. She will have all three on her beck and call.

 

Getting Cairhein and keeping Cairhein is two separate issues. The Cairheinen may not come to Elayne's call to put down a "revolt" in Rand's home town even if he doesn't get involved. Egwene is from the Two Rivers but she's Amyrlin first and will do the best for the WT. Best for the WT may not be in the interest of Andor.

 

Nope, Manetheren won't rise again. With Perrin's reluctance and Elayne as stubborn as she is, I don't see any hope of raising Manetheren again.Mat's involvment will even be less tolerated due to his Seanchan connection. People may decide to burn him alive.Not every one including Rand, Ashaman and White

tower is moon eyed over "Tuons Charm".

 

Perrin's reluctance stems from his personal attitudes and though he did promise the Seanchan he wouldn't raise ancient Manetheren can he really keep it? The people of Two Rivers have done it in all but name.

 

Again Mat leads one of the best trained military forces loyal to Rand armed with Gunpowder, plus Elayne owes him.

 

And people seem to miss the most important point: The populace of Two Rivers.

 

Do you really think they'll tolerate Elayne as their queen?

 

Where was Andor when the Trollocs came?

 

You're ignoring their right of self-determination.

 

They were a stubborn people before the Trollocs came. Now they are battle-hardened stubborn populace.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[RAND AL THOR]

And people seem to miss the most important point: The populace of Two Rivers.

 

Do you really think they'll tolerate Elayne as their queen?

 

Where was Andor when the Trollocs came?

 

You're ignoring their right of self-determination.

 

They were a stubborn people before the Trollocs came. Now they are battle-hardened stubborn populace.

 

 

Mysterious

 

Not accepting Elayne as Queen is open rebellion against their lawful Queen.

[Mysterious]

Is she their lawful Queen?

 

Andor has claimed all the lands to the Mountains of Mist but only has a marginally effective garrison at Whitebrigde. This is a fair distance from Baerlon let alone Two Rivers.

 

Andor didn't send any soldiers against the Trollocs. Morally they've lost any foothold that they could have claimed to have had.

 

Legally?

 

State sovereignty only implies to areas that they hold and have control over. That's why no nation can claim all of the oceans as their own. Andor has had neither on the Two Rivers for generations and currently has none over the Black Tower regardless of what she thinks.

 

What about another scenario in Randland:

 

The Seanchan claim all the lands that was once Hawkwing's and currently have effective control over the west coast. Do they not have a better claim? The nobles of that time rebelled against Hawkwing's blood and now that they have come back, should they not cede to them?

 

Morally and legally the nation of Andor has no claim over the Two Rivers. Duty and responsibilty works both ways.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

 

[theravener]

Is she their lawful Queen?

 

Andor has claimed all the lands to the Mountains of Mist but only has a marginally effective garrison at Whitebrigde. This is a fair distance from Baerlon let alone Two Rivers.

 

Andor didn't send any soldiers against the Trollocs. Morally they've lost any foothold that they could have claimed to have had.

 

Legally?

 

State sovereignty only implies to areas that they hold and have control over. That's why no nation can claim all of the oceans as their own. Andor has had neither on the Two Rivers for generations and currently has none over the Black Tower regardless of what she thinks.

 

 

 

Mysterious

 

 

I Agree the Queens of Andor haven't held sway in the Two Rivers for Generations and its really only part of Andor on a map. IMO they have every right to do what they want.

 

Anyway, I don't think Morgase isn't spoiled but she isn't nearly as bad as Elayne. The way Elayne acts just irritates me to no end but at least she doesn't piss me off like Egwene does after she became Amyrlin and Nynaeve used to before she helped Rand cleanse Saidin.

[Mr Ares]

she thinks she has the only valid claim on Andor and Rand was wrong in usurping the throne and trying to give it to her, when without Rand Andor would be a lair of Shadowspawn.

So who else has a valid claim then? And Rand shouldn't have tries to "give her" what was hers already. He mishandled the situation. So did Elayne, to be fair. Poor communication at work. But since when has usurping thrones been OK?

In short, she acts like a Queen when she has no right to be one.

She has every right to be a Queen. She was Daughter-Heir, her mother abdicated, she is Queen. Simple as that.

 

On a shorter note: Elayne will be or already is the most Strogest Monarch on this side of Aryth Ocean. Kind of reminds me of Queen of England at 17-19 century.

Tuon and Rand are both more powerful monarchs, and both on this side of the Aryth.

 

A quick question/note: Didn't Perin promise the Seanchan not to try and raise ancient Manetheran (sp?) in exchange for their help in freeing Faile?

He did indeed. It will not be Manetheren v Andor. It may be TR against Andor, at worst, but the Two Rivers is not Manetheren.

 

Morally and legally the nation of Andor has no claim over the Two Rivers. Duty and responsibilty works both ways.

Damn right they do. So what the hell did the TR do to desrve protection from the trollocs? The rest of Andor pays taxes, and is in turn protected by the army. TR doesn't pay taxes, they don't have any responsiblities to Andor, so why should Andor have any towards them? Morally and legally Andor had no duty to protect the Two Rivers.

 

Another legal point: I'm guessing that the Queen reserves the right to cede territory. Until she does, if that is the case, then TR is legally still part of Andor.

 

The Seanchan claim all the lands that was once Hawkwing's and currently have effective control over the west coast. Do they not have a better claim? The nobles of that time rebelled against Hawkwing's blood and now that they have come back, should they not cede to them?

Lapse of time?

[RAND AL THOR]

she thinks she has the only valid claim on Andor and Rand was wrong in usurping the throne and trying to give it to her, when without Rand Andor would be a lair of Shadowspawn.

So who else has a valid claim then? And Rand shouldn't have tries to "give her" what was hers already. He mishandled the situation. So did Elayne, to be fair. Poor communication at work. But since when has usurping thrones been OK?

 

Rand wrested Andor from Rhavin. I doubt Elayne could have done that. She should be thanking Rand for another 10 years-not yelling at him for trying to 'offer' her the throne.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's not as simple as that.

 

First few know that Gaebril was Rahvin.  Even fewer believe it.  So, Rand having taken out 'Lord Gaebril' doesn't carry much weight with the average Andoran.  In addition, he's a man and Andor prefers queens.  And, strong ones.

 

Second, if Elayne's claim to the throne is to ever be secure, the Andoran people must see that she earned it on her own merits.  If she just accepted it in the manner Rand intended, she'd never be seen as anything but a puppet.  She'd never have her subject's respect.  Her 'reign' would be fraught with intrigue and she most likely wouldn't live very long.

 

By securing the crown in the way that she did, her people are more likely to see her as leading them where they are meant to go rather than forcing them to where someone  else ( Rand ) wants them to go.

 

Rand's intentions were good, he just didn't understand the dynamics of Andoran politics.  Elayne does, accounting for why she had to do things as she did.

[RAND AL THOR]

But that does not pardon Elayne's reaction. She knew that Gaebril was Rhavin after he was killed, I believe. Her immediate response to Rand's proposal is unforgivable. If I find it, I shall post it.

 

I do like Elayne but this is one of the places where she is annoying (& arrogant).

[Bob T Dwarf]

She reacted as an Andoran.  And, the Daughter-heir.

 

The crown was hers by right of succession, but only if she proved worthy of securing it for herself.  It wasn't Rand's to give to anybody, even her.

[Snowy Dawn]

``TR doesn't pay taxes, they don't have any responsibilities to Andor, so why should Andor have any towards them? Morally and legally Andor had no duty to protect the Two Rivers.''

 

If Andor has no responsibilities towards the Two Rivers, then I fail to see what claim the Queen of Andor would have to the Two Rivers. This goes both ways..... Anyway, they haven't paid taxes because no one has been sent to collect them in upwards of two centuries. How would they know what the rates are---i.e., how much they owe?

[Rain]

It was Rands right in my eyes. Despite what he has says otherwise Andor was his just as every other country that more or less came under his "protection" is his. If Rand had wanted Andor there was nothing Elayne could do to stop him. Someone jog my memory but from purely a blood standpoint Rand had a legitimate claim to the throne. Even if Rand had given Elayne the throne as intended, some of you fail to realize how far and long fear can control a nation. Elayne wouldn't have gone anywhere soon just from fear of the DR. Elayne is going  to outlive any of her current citizens anyway. She should have took the easy way out.

I also would like to point out that there is nothing Elayne could do to quell the TR if they were to become there own country. If not just from a military perspective but the considerable amount of important people that wouldn't sit idle and let Elayne do as she pleased. Her Amyrlin, a couple queens, the best general in Randland, the list goes on.

[Snowy Dawn]

``But that does not pardon Elayne's reaction. She knew that Gaebril was Rhavin after he was killed, I believe. Her immediate response to Rand's proposal is unforgivable. If I find it, I shall post it.''

 

It is the same response as that of Dyelin and Morgase, and would no doubt be the same response he would get from Luon, Abelle, and the other heads of the great houses: they would no more see the throne as something for Rand to award than does Morgase or Elayne. Rand of course is primarily concerned with getting someone on the Lion Throne who will help him put together the force he needs to win at the Last Battle. He made that clear in what he said to Davram Bashere when he first meets the latter.

[theravener]

I don't think it was Rands intent to award the throne to Elayne, I think he merely meant to hold it for until she could take it. Its just the way he says it thats leads people to believe that and makes them so upset.

 

And as many people have said, if Rand hadn't taken care of Rhavin Elayne wouldn't have a throne to claim. I doubt anyone but Rand could have taken care of him and Elayne and the other noble should realize this and be more gracious to him, the way they see things really irritates me.

[anamul]

I don't think it was Rands intent to award the throne to Elayne, I think he merely meant to hold it for until she could take it. Its just the way he says it thats leads people to believe that and makes them so upset.

 

And as many people have said, if Rand hadn't taken care of Rhavin Elayne wouldn't have a throne to claim. I doubt anyone but Rand could have taken care of him and Elayne and the other noble should realize this and be more gracious to him, the way they see things really irritates me.

 

True. Its not just Elayne, all of the Andoran noble's reaction is the same. No wonder Mat hates noble. There is something twisted about them.

[RAND AL THOR]

We can hardly expect the nobles to believe Rand if he popped up, killed their 'king' and then declared that the king he had just killed was one of the legendary forsaken.

 

So the nobles have some right to their behaviour.

 

But Elayne knows full well that the Forsaken are free and there is little excuse for her immediate reaction.

[anamul]

That will only add to their ignorance and make them more incompetent. Information is power and to some degree people who lead needs to be aware of at least the most common and predictable thing.

 

Why shouldn't they believe Rand? After all they know very well that he is the dragon reborn. What Rand has to gain by making "Gavril" a forsaken? He had Andor anyway.

 

They know last battle is coming, yet still they like the White tower(Elaida and company), refuse to belive forsaken is loose.

 

Amys, Melain and other Aiel including Rhuarce and other chief wasn't surprise when Rand talked about the Forsaken. Which impiles they were already aware or expecting this.

 

Termon Gaidon is coming and they can't really believe that Forsaken is going to sit idly in a cave and suck their thumbs.

 

At least Elayne is better than other noble in that regards. At least she is up to date with recent events. Which alone makes her fit to lead those incompetent louts.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

If Andor has no responsibilities towards the Two Rivers, then I fail to see what claim the Queen of Andor would have to the Two Rivers. This goes both ways..... Anyway, they haven't paid taxes because no one has been sent to collect them in upwards of two centuries. How would they know what the rates are---i.e., how much they owe?

What claim she has towards the TR? Simple. It's her land. Her sovereign territory. And they wouldn't know what they owe. But that's beside the point. They don't get something for nothing, nor does the rest of Andor.

 

It was Rands right in my eyes. Despite what he has says otherwise Andor was his just as every other country that more or less came under his "protection" is his. If Rand had wanted Andor there was nothing Elayne could do to stop him. Someone jog my memory but from purely a blood standpoint Rand had a legitimate claim to the throne.

From a puely blood point of view, Rand would be somewhere in the line of succession, as he is of Ishara's line. Just as important, however, is the purely what's-in-the-trousers standpoint, in which case he wouldn't be. Because he has a penis. Now, he may be able to claim Andor by right of conquest. Fine. But why should that make Elayne, one of the women he loves, well disposed towards him? "I've taken your Queendom and now I'm going to pretend to be generous by giving you back what was yours already." Elayne has every right to be pissed off in that situation. Maybe Rand should have chosen his words with more care.

Even if Rand had given Elayne the throne as intended, some of you fail to realize how far and long fear can control a nation. Elayne wouldn't have gone anywhere soon just from fear of the DR. Elayne is going  to outlive any of her current citizens anyway. She should have took the easy way out.

Yeah, screw womens lib! Take the easy way out, ladies, don't try and achieve anything for yourself when you can take the easy way out and rely on your husband! Who cares if you end up a puppet on a throne, thrown (throne?) off at the first opportunity, held in place by your husbands will, not doing anything on your own merit! What an inspirational message. Of course Elayne should fight for what is hers. Of course she should be a Queen on her own merits rather than because Rand decided to throw her a bone.

I also would like to point out that there is nothing Elayne could do to quell the TR if they were to become there own country. If not just from a military perspective but the considerable amount of important people that wouldn't sit idle and let Elayne do as she pleased. Her Amyrlin, a couple queens, the best general in Randland, the list goes on.

The Amyrlin would likely have more important things to worry about, the best general in Randland could well have an Empire to conquer on the other side of the world, etc. And there is more than one way to skin a cat. She doesn't need to resort to military might to conquer them. If they want independence, simply cripple them with cutoms fees. Provoke them into attacks on loyal Andorans, then respond and paint them as the bad guys. Burn their crops in the fields. And so on. They can beat the TR without neding to put an army in the field. If it actually comes to a fight, that is.

 

And as many people have said, if Rand hadn't taken care of Rhavin Elayne wouldn't have a throne to claim. I doubt anyone but Rand could have taken care of him

Why? We have seen other people deal with Chosen in the series. Moiraine and Nynaeve, for example. Why can't Elayne?

 

Why shouldn't they believe Rand? After all they know very well that he is the dragon reborn. What Rand has to gain by making "Gavril" a forsaken? He had Andor anyway.

What had he to gain? Perception of him as liberator rather than as conquerer.

[maximuswynn]

Morgase may be spoiled, but she has the innate sense of responsibility. Elayne however is more clung on honor and obligation of late and more or less wins me over.

[RAND AL THOR]

 

And as many people have said, if Rand hadn't taken care of Rhavin Elayne wouldn't have a throne to claim. I doubt anyone but Rand could have taken care of him

Why? We have seen other people deal with Chosen in the series. Moiraine and Nynaeve, for example. Why can't Elayne?

 

 

What a stupid suggestion. Nynaeve is the strongest female channeler alive (except for the Forsaken) in a 1000 years. She was able to face Moggy through strength.

 

Moiraine had several months warning before the encounter with Lanfear. She knew what she had to do beforehand.

 

Elayne most certainly lacks both and suggesting that she may be able to handle a forsaken merely because Nynave and Moirained could is just silly. There is nothing special with her other than whats in her belly and her Talent of making ter'angreal.

 

Why shouldn't they believe Rand? After all they know very well that he is the dragon reborn. What Rand has to gain by making "Gavril" a forsaken? He had Andor anyway.

What had he to gain? Perception of him as liberator rather than as conquerer.

 

Perception as a liberator would be welcomed by the Andor nobles much more than the latter.

[Dunedain Fal]

My take on it:

 

I forgive hot beautiful girls with nice bosoms!!!  They can do anything as long as I bed them!!

 

Seriously,

 

Yes Elayne made some mistakes such as leading the Aes Sedai without taking precautions and getting them killed.  She needs to learn that lesson or she will lose far more in the future and not just a few Aes Sedai, but more people.

 

Hundreds of people have died rescuing her from the Black Ajah.  I don't think she has learned what led precisely to this.

 

However, she had made some sound strategic decisions such as with the Borderland Army and using it as a political pawn in goading some of her adversaries to supporting her for the throne.

 

As for Rand and her, what can we say?  She's head over heels with Rand.  She is not going to think clearly with Rand in the situation.  However she did think clearly with the Black Tower, but only when she realized that the Black Tower was far more powerful than her.

 

She's flawed. Just like any other human being.

[Mr Ares]

And as many people have said, if Rand hadn't taken care of Rhavin Elayne wouldn't have a throne to claim. I doubt anyone but Rand could have taken care of him

Why? We have seen other people deal with Chosen in the series. Moiraine and Nynaeve, for example. Why can't Elayne?

What a stupid suggestion. Nynaeve is the strongest female channeler alive (except for the Forsaken) in a 1000 years. She was able to face Moggy through strength.

So how much stronger is Rahvin than Elayne? Or vice versa? Can she not beat him through strength? And don't try to use that quote from TFoH Prologue with Rahvin lying to himself about his own strength as that proves nothing with regards to this. Nor does Moghedien's cowardice say much about her strength. Also, why can't Elayne get some help (Nynaeve, for example.)? I never said she had to do it alone, did I? I only pointed out tht saying only Rand could have done it is a bit wrong considering others have done it. Maybe you could come up with an actual reason why my suggestion is stupid, rather than just saying it is. (I could also point out Sharina and Alivia are stronger than Nynaeve (or Sharina will be at full potential anyway) yet neither is a Chosen. So how is Ny the strongest female in 1,000 years, barring Chosen when there is already at least one stronger than her?)

 

Moiraine had several months warning before the encounter with Lanfear. She knew what she had to do beforehand.

And the encounter with Be'lal? Or Aginor? Lanfear was not the only Chosen she faced.

 

Elayne most certainly lacks both and suggesting that she may be able to handle a forsaken merely because Nynave and Moirained could is just silly. There is nothing special with her other than whats in her belly and her Talent of making ter'angreal.

Or her strength? What's "special" about Moiraine? Elayne is stronger than her, or will be at full strength. Plus she has a few friends ho happen to be channelers of not inconsiderable strength...like the aforementioned Nynaeve. So the two of them can team up, link, and take out Rahvin. There are other ways of going about things too. It's not impossible or ridiculous for Elayne to kill Rahvin. At least, not just because you say it is. The suggestion that only Rand is capable of taking out Chosen is not only silly, it is also blatantly wrong.

[RAND AL THOR]

We do not require proof that Elayne is weaker in the Power than Rhavin. All the Forsaken are powerful and Elayne is significantly weaker than Nynaeve.

 

The current events in Randland break all norm. Powerful channelers are popping up and customs break etc...early in the series, the Tower expected Nynaeve to become the most powerful in over 1000 years.

 

You might recall that Moiraine miserably failed against Aginor.

 

Be'lal was taken by surprise. He would not have expected someone from this age to use balefire-especially since the channelers of the AoL themselves feared to use it.

 

There is nothing special about Moiraine. I was talking about the instance where she faced Lanfear. She was warned beforehand in the rings and so she did not win over Lanfear throughout outright strength.

 

Plus she has a few friends ho happen to be channelers of not inconsiderable strength...like the aforementioned Nynaeve. So the two of them can team up, link, and take out Rahvin. There are other ways of going about things too. It's not impossible or ridiculous for Elayne to kill Rahvin. At least, not just because you say it is.

 

Then why were the Forsaken spared? Sammael was in Illian. That was known to all. Noone did anything. 13 sisters could have caught him, you say, but no one bothered.

 

The only people in Randland who have killed Forsaken are Rand and Moiraine (exception Asmo). That suggests something wouldn't you say?

 

And lets not forget how easily Elayne, Egwene and Nynave were captured in Tear by the Black sisters.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

We do not require proof that Elayne is weaker in the Power than Rhavin. All the Forsaken are powerful and Elayne is significantly weaker than Nynaeve.

So the Chosen are powerful, Nynaeve is powerful, Elayne is less powerful than Nynaeve, but we don't know how powerful Elayne is compared to the Chosen....but we still don't need proof, because you are willing to buy into the mythologising of the Chosen that the Randlanders have been doing since the Breaking? In other words, we have no solid reasons to believe that Rahvin is significantly stronger than Elayne, but we're supposed to take your beliefs on the matter as the next best thing.

 

The current events in Randland break all norm. Powerful channelers are popping up and customs break etc...early in the series, the Tower expected Nynaeve to become the most powerful in over 1000 years.

The Tower is full of ignorant bitches who think they know a lot more than they really do.

 

You might recall that Moiraine miserably failed against Aginor.

She succeeded admirably in delaying and distracting him allowing Rand to escape. She also succeeded in not getting killed.

 

Be'lal was taken by surprise. He would not have expected someone from this age to use balefire-especially since the channelers of the AoL themselves feared to use it.

So Rahvin is impossible to surprise is he?

 

There is nothing special about Moiraine. I was talking about the instance where she faced Lanfear. She was warned beforehand in the rings and so she did not win over Lanfear throughout outright strength.

So nothing-special-about-Moiraine can kill Chosen, but nothing-special-about-Elayne can't? Double standard. Given the right tools, there is nothing stopping Elayne killing Rahvin. If she had some warning, if she had someone with her, etc., etc. It's not impossible, no matter how much you say it is.

 

Plus she has a few friends ho happen to be channelers of not inconsiderable strength...like the aforementioned Nynaeve. So the two of them can team up, link, and take out Rahvin. There are other ways of going about things too. It's not impossible or ridiculous for Elayne to kill Rahvin. At least, not just because you say it is.

Then why were the Forsaken spared? Sammael was in Illian. That was known to all. Noone did anything. 13 sisters could have caught him, you say, but no one bothered.

Not often you hear people accuse the Tower of competence. Yes, thirteen Sisters could take down Sammael. They would have an advantage of strength. The Tower could have done something about it. They didn't. This surprises you?

 

The only people in Randland who have killed Forsaken are Rand and Moiraine (exception Asmo). That suggests something wouldn't you say?

It suggests you are ignorant. Aginor was killed by Aginor, Balthamel by the Green Man, Be'lal by Moiraine, Ishamael by Rand, Lanfear by an unknown party, Asmo by an unknown party called Graendal, Rahvin by Rand, Sammael by Mashadar, Osan'gar by Elza. So, what is to stop Elayne killing Rahvin? Just because RJ decided not to tell that story doesn't make that story inherently implausible or ridiculous.

 

And lets not forget how easily Elayne, Egwene and Nynave were captured in Tear by the Black sisters.

This would be the same Nynaeve that went on to best Moghedien in Tanchico...and T'a'r. How about you give me a good reason why it's impossible for Elayne to kill Rahvin (in a hypothetical situation, to cut off any smart arses who want to point out that she can't because Rand did). Not strong enough doesn't cut it unless yo have evidence as to their relative strengths. Plot shield doesn't cut it, as that exists only as long as the author wants it to (that's the "only certain people have done it" argument gone. Just because only certain people have done it doesn't mean that only those people are capable of doing it). You can't use Tower incompetence or even previous incompetence on Elayne's part as get outs. She could get her act together this time, like Nynaeve did against Moggy. How about just one good reason why she couldn't have done it?

[Mysterious]

I believe what RAND was trying to say is that she doesn't have the necessary tactical and strategic acumen, or lack thereof, in using the OP in combat to be effective against the Forsaken. This can be seen by the number of unnecessary deaths in her ops.

 

What claim she has towards the TR? Simple. It's her land. Her sovereign territory. And they wouldn't know what they owe. But that's beside the point. They don't get something for nothing, nor does the rest of Andor.

 

No it's not her land. Andor has "claimed" the Two Rivers. Andor does not meet the requirements of sovereignty by holding and having effective control over the area and populace. That's like comparing the UK still has a claim over the USA or the rest of the Commonwealth.

 

And if we go with your lapse of time arguement for the Seanchan, well how long has it been since the Two Rivers has had a detachment of Tax collectors or Queen's Guard to keep the peace?

 

200 years!

 

So what tomorrow she's just going to drop by and say she's their "Rightful" and "Lawful" Queen?

 

Not even Baerlon with all its relative wealth is governed in Andor's name. The area and populace has been essentially self-governed for nearly 200 years. Does Andoran law supercede the laws of Baerlon and the various villages in the region because someone a couple of hundred leagues to the east says it does?

 

"I've taken your Queendom and now I'm going to pretend to be generous by giving you back what was yours already." Elayne has every right to be pissed off in that situation. Maybe Rand should have chosen his words with more care.

 

The Queendom wasn't hers to take either. It was hers to earn. Remember she had to be voted in by a majority of Houses. Plus House Trakand has only kept the throne for one generation i.e. Morgase, and she got it by smart politicking, not by her inherent rightful blood claim through Ishara or the previous ruling family.

 

The Amyrlin would likely have more important things to worry about, the best general in Randland could well have an Empire to conquer on the other side of the world, etc. And there is more than one way to skin a cat. She doesn't need to resort to military might to conquer them. If they want independence, simply cripple them with cutoms fees. Provoke them into attacks on loyal Andorans, then respond and paint them as the bad guys. Burn their crops in the fields. And so on. They can beat the TR without neding to put an army in the field. If it actually comes to a fight, that is.

 

Likely is not certain. There is a lot of Two Rivers girls of high potential that are currently enrolled in the Tower. Internal politics of the WT could stop Andor cold in any actions against the TR.

 

As for Mat, there's insufficient evidence that he'll go to the Empire and re-conquer it for Tuon. With TG so close and his op against the Snakes & Foxes there's a greater argument that he'll stay in Westland.

 

Ever heard of smuggling? Plus Traveling from Asha'man, since they would be the TR natural allies, effectively nullifies any custom duties plus any military aggression.

 

Burn their crops and fields? Jesus... Ever heard of an insurgency? Or better yet Revolution? It was real popular in the across the Atlantic. And last time I checked Ireland was a Republic regardless of the wishes of the English nobility and Anglo-Irish landowners.

 

You're basing your analysis that every action she can take is in a vacuum:

 

1. Perrin is ta'veren. The last time a nation tried to take on a ta'veren of note they got conquered (Hawkwing).

 

2. Faile has deep connections in the Borderlands. Do you really think she won't use them?

 

3. That other nations and organisations won't get involved in the conflict. There's a lot of people who'll atleast look the other way if not actively help TR just because Elayne is Aes Sedai and that the 3 ta'veren were born (raised in Rand's case) there.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

 

Edit: Grammar and Sp mistakes

[RAND AL THOR]

I believe what RAND was trying to say is that she doesn't have the necessary tactical and strategic acumen in using the OP in combat to be effective against the Forsaken. Can be seen by the number of unnecessary deaths in he ops.

 

Yup. Mr Ares wants me to construct a scene with Elayne facing Rhavin and winning. Unfortunately I cannot do that since I am not RJ.

 

There is little need for evidence for the obvious. It is very very likely that Elayne is on a much weaker level than Rhavin in the One Power. Demanding direct evidence when there is sufficient indirect proof is just plain stubborn. We can't speculate anything on this forum if you want 100% proof for every tiny detail.