Moiraine (After Knife of Dreams - Spoilers) [Speculation]

[TedM]

For some reason, Moiraine's death just came as too shocking for me. For one thing, almost no one dies in the series, and she was one of the most interesting characters I'd ever seen. And when Moiraine killed Lanfear, it wasn't until the cleansing of Saidain that I accepted that she could be dead. Let me explain:

 

1. Moiraine was too important.

2. They only ventured into the Ter'angreal, and as I recall it was possible to escape, what if she knew what the conditions were inside and she asked for three things. Maybe she would ask for a new body?

3. On the other hand, Lan could no longer sense Moiraine. Maybe that was because she was in one of those bubbles outside the pattern, or in another world? But in the place that Rand, the thief catcher, and Loiyal went to, the thief catcher could smell the violence even in another world.

4. No other main characters really died.

5. She could mask the bond.

6. Min's viewings suggested that Moiraine was to fulfill more, and that means that those have to come true.

7. Thom's letter was a dead clear ending to speculation for me.

 

I cannot wait for her to return, I hope that happens at the very beginning of aMoL!

[CUBAREY]

If you read KOD you know the content of Moiraine's letter to Thom. Moiraine is not dead she is being held captive. She saw this when she passed through the Rings and the fact that only if Thom Mat and a third person came would she be rescued.

[RAND AL THOR]

Have u read KOD?

[TedM]

I was only into the fourth chapter for KOD, but now I am done. It's so sad that no main characters REALLY die then.

[RAND AL THOR]

It's so sad that no main characters REALLY die then.

 

This was discussed in another thread too. It is the one of the weakest aspects of WoT. We have more than a dozen chief characters and yet all survive against all the odds! Weird. Maybe RJ loved his characters too much?

[Guest Dreadlord]

You could put it down to Ta'veren if you really wanted to. Rand needed all the main characters, and will need them in Tarmon Gaidon. Since Moiraine, Lan, Elayne, Aviendha, Nynaeve, Min, Mat and Perrin are all the ones Rand can really trust more than anyone else, as well as the roles they play, he needs them. Lan for his knowledge of war and the fact that many borderlanders would follow him. Moiraine for obvious reasons. Elayne to bind two nations to him and for some kiddies, Aviendha for some kiddies which to a degree will bind the Aiel to him, Nynaeve because of her Healing abilities and One Power strength, Min for her viewings. And Mat and Perrin because together with Rand they make the Ta'veren tripod.

[RAND AL THOR]

True but I believe that the ta'veren effect requires somewhat close proximity? That is stated several times.

 

But if RJ wished to put that to ta'veren then I would be very disappointed. His most fantastic idea is the ta'veren idea because it helps explain all the usual fantasy coincidences but in this case that is going too far. If Rand is ta'veren strong enough to keep several other alive, then he himself should not be under such strain such as losing his hand, his wounds etc....

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Im sure somewhere there was a description that said something like "A Ta'veren pulls at the threads around it, and somtimes the treads around those" and if the Ta'veren is strong enough it can go very far.

 

Lookin at it though, I can see what you mean about the Ta'veren being used too much and I dont think Ta'veren is the true reason behind it. But...Mat died. But there was something that could be done about it.

 

I wonder why no Forsaken or Darkfriend has even tried to kill Perrin yet. He is by far the easiest target of the three I reckon, yet there has been nothing. Nothing at all.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Words like "never" and "should" and "only close proximity" don't really apply.

 

Gonna go broken record here for a moment:

ta'veren: A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life threads, perhaps ALL life-threads to form a Web of Destiny.

 

No range limitation.  Whatever a particular Web of Destiny requires, the Wheel will supply.  If that's every life-thread in existence than that's what gets woven around the one who is ta'veren.

 

The ta'veren is only the focus for all the weaving.  The needs of the Web of Destiny are what govern.

[Mr Ares]

Maybe RJ loved his characters too much?

I would say the real problem is one of planning - all these main characters had a role to fulfill, things they have to do. And they haven't finished doing those things yet, so they still need to be around. So they can't die. It would have been nice if some main characters had roles that were fulfilled earlier than AMoL, then they could have been for the chop. But it's not really a problem.

[Majsju]

You could put it down to Ta'veren if you really wanted to. Rand needed all the main characters, and will need them in Tarmon Gaidon. Since Moiraine, Lan, Elayne, Aviendha, Nynaeve, Min, Mat and Perrin are all the ones Rand can really trust more than anyone else, as well as the roles they play, he needs them. Lan for his knowledge of war and the fact that many borderlanders would follow him. Moiraine for obvious reasons. Elayne to bind two nations to him and for some kiddies, Aviendha for some kiddies which to a degree will bind the Aiel to him, Nynaeve because of her Healing abilities and One Power strength, Min for her viewings. And Mat and Perrin because together with Rand they make the Ta'veren tripod.

 

And yet, very few of them have anything to do with Rand being ta'veren.

Moiraine and Lan started searching for Rand about 18 years before he became ta'veren. Of course, Rand might have had some influence on them appearing at the exact right moment, but that is about it.

Mat and Perrin are tied to Rand through Prophecy, and they were close friends long before any of them became ta'veren.

Nynaeve has known Rand his entire life, as well as the others who fled Emonds Field. Her wanting to take care of them is her personality. And her strength in the power, as well as skill with healing is something she was born with, nothing to do with Rand being ta'veren.

Which leaves Min, Elayne and Avi. While Rand seems to have been predestined to meet and hook up with them, it is quite plausible it took some ta'veren pulling to actually make that happen, given the circumstances he met all three.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Youre using the fact that Mat, Perrin and Nynaeve knew Rand most if not all of his life as a reason for them staying alive against all odds? I wish I knew someone like Rand, if the fact that I knew someone like that would keep me alive against all odds, simply because I knew them.

 

I wasnt saying Nynaeves strength is becuase Rand was Ta'veren. Im saying that is why he needs her, and hence potentially why a Ta'veren twist might keep her alive. And Moiraine and Lan actually finding Rand can easily be put down to Ta'veren, since the Pattern needed Moiraine and Lan to arrive so the three Ta'veren would leave their home; without a reason to leave, they would have stayed there.

 

You should read posts properly Maj, and look at what they actually mean. I never said Nynaeves strength was there because Rand is Ta'veren at all. That isnt even twisting my words, its putting words in my mouth

[RAND AL THOR]

Maybe RJ loved his characters too much?

I would say the real problem is one of planning - all these main characters had a role to fulfill, things they have to do. And they haven't finished doing those things yet, so they still need to be around. So they can't die. It would have been nice if some main characters had roles that were fulfilled earlier than AMoL, then they could have been for the chop. But it's not really a problem.

 

In which case perhaps, RJ ought to have introduced other characters with lesser importance and chopped them off. More real.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think that's one of the purposes for Rand's flaming list of names.

 

It's meant to show us that strife has an ugly cost.

 

And, it's not like nobody has died.  Aside from all the women Rand keeps track of, there've been Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Tairen's, Cairhainen, Andorans, etc. by the droves, and stacks and stacks of Trollocs and Myrddraal.

 

I think we're expected to be civilized enough to grieve for the dead whether we've actually met them or not.

[Mr Ares]

In which case perhaps, RJ ought to have introduced other characters with lesser importance and chopped them off. More real.

There's more to realism than death. Which survivals are unrealistic?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry, can't resist -

 

Which survivals are unrealistic?  How about all of them.

 

But, let's just take the big dustups in The Eye of the World.  Two of the most powerful Forsaken from the Age of Legends show up and the only fatality is Someshta.  I think Egwene broke a nail, and Moiraine got her hair mussed.

 

Then Rand, who has never really channeled in his life, swooshes magically off to Tarwin's Gap, pulls a mountain down on the Shadowspawn army, and jaunts upstairs on a stairway that isn't there, and proceeds to kick Ba'alzamon's heinie.

 

There are probably a few others...

[RAND AL THOR]

Sorry, can't resist -

 

Which survivals are unrealistic?  How about all of them.

 

 

 

Perhaps not all-but pretty much most.

 

I am not going to bother to dig up references from the entire series which will likely take me days. If someone can actually read this Fantasy Series and say that there are no unrealistic survivals then I think they may just be affected by the Taint.

[Majsju]

Youre using the fact that Mat, Perrin and Nynaeve knew Rand most if not all of his life as a reason for them staying alive against all odds? I wish I knew someone like Rand, if the fact that I knew someone like that would keep me alive against all odds, simply because I knew them.

 

I wasnt saying Nynaeves strength is becuase Rand was Ta'veren. Im saying that is why he needs her, and hence potentially why a Ta'veren twist might keep her alive. And Moiraine and Lan actually finding Rand can easily be put down to Ta'veren, since the Pattern needed Moiraine and Lan to arrive so the three Ta'veren would leave their home; without a reason to leave, they would have stayed there.

 

You should read posts properly Maj, and look at what they actually mean. I never said Nynaeves strength was there because Rand is Ta'veren at all. That isnt even twisting my words, its putting words in my mouth

 

In your own words, Rands need is involved in keeping all these characters alive. Well, Rand had a need to make them all hook up with him from the beginning. And that is what I was illustrating, very little ta'veren pulling were involved in getting that gang together. I am simply too lazy to pll out all the numerous examples where one of these characters have been close to death, and survived against all odds despite Rand being nowhere near the situation. Ta'veren is a last resort to solve a situation, and all the characters mentioned have managed to survive situations where rand was far, far away. Ok, scrap Mat and Perrin from that, since they are strong enough ta'veren to be able to take care of themselves.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Bobs quote earlier made it clear Ta'veren isnt hindered by distance. And the point wasnt that Ta'veren got the group together, and by no means did it keep them together. The point was that because Rand will need most of them, whether its to help him or do something they would do better, so the Ta'verenness keeps them alive. Even after KoD it is obvious what part they all will play to a point and so it has kept them alive long enough, because Rand still needs them.

 

I am not saying Ta'veren is the single reason they survived, I simply mean its had its effects on the others whether they are near to Rand or far from him.

 

Nynaeves strength in the Power was an inheritance, yes, but as soon as Rand became Ta'veren Nynaeve and Egwene were hooked. Both had great channeling strength, which the Ta'veren could use. The strength was there before the Ta'veren was, but the latter could use the former, hence them being latched on to Rands benefit, whether he can see the benefit or not, and however far they get from him

[Majsju]

Did you happen to notice the little word 'perhaps' in Bobs quote?

 

We have seen nothing in the books that suggests Rands ta'veren can have any effect over a long distance. When it has been really strong, he has been able to touch a city, which is quite different from a continent.

And having Rands ta'veren jumping in to save peoples lives all over the place goes very much against a very fundamental rule of how ta'veren works: dualism. For every good consequence, there is a corresponding negative consequence.

 

Not to mention that having Rands ta'veren running around on its own helping people would render the characters own merits useless. Oh what a hero Lan is, only managing to stay alive because his buddy is ta'veren...I stronlgy doubt RJ would write such a story, I think he would find the very idea repulsive.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

ta'veren: A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life threads, perhaps ALL life-threads to form a Web of Destiny

UNQUOTE

 

Maj, the perhaps was referring to the fact that MAYBE all lif-threads form a web of destiny. It is safe to say that all the main characters threads are SURROUNDING threads, which is the point. A Ta'veren weaves SURROUNDING threads, which Lan definitely comes under, so Ta'veren definitely has its part in keeping him involved.

 

So Maj, as I said earlier I wasnt saying Ta'veren wasnt the sole reason for their survival and I put that so people like you would notice that I WASNT IMPLYING THAT.

 

You would have thought being a moderator that you would actually read stuff before replying, since I have seen you slate other people for not doing it. Take your own advice and read stuff before replying

[Snowy Dawn]

``I wonder why no Forsaken or Darkfriend has even tried to kill Perrin yet. He is by far the easiest target of the three I reckon, yet there has been nothing. Nothing at all.''

 

But there has been at least one recent attempt: see the end of Ch. 12 ``A Manufactory'' of <i>Knife of Dreams</i>, pp. 307--308 in the hardcover edition. There would have been more, but as Graendel observes in the meeting ``At the Gardens'' (<i>Knife of Dreams</i>, Ch. 2):

 

``Finding <i>ta' veren</i> was never as simple as you made out, and now it's harder than ever. The whole Pattern is in flux, full of shifts and spikes.''

 

Since the Forsaken are having trouble finding them, the two attacks, one on each, seem so far to be the most that could be mustered.

[Mr Ares]

Sorry, can't resist -

 

Which survivals are unrealistic?  How about all of them.

 

But, let's just take the big dustups in The Eye of the World.  Two of the most powerful Forsaken from the Age of Legends show up and the only fatality is Someshta.  I think Egwene broke a nail, and Moiraine got her hair mussed.

 

Then Rand, who has never really channeled in his life, swooshes magically off to Tarwin's Gap, pulls a mountain down on the Shadowspawn army, and jaunts upstairs on a stairway that isn't there, and proceeds to kick Ba'alzamon's heinie.

 

There are probably a few others...

Aginor and Balthamel, a scientist and a spymaster, show up with the intention of seizing the Eye, not with killing those they find. Aginor doesn't make any serious attempt to kill anyone, because he is too focused on his goal, and then he kills himself. Balthamel makes a serious attempt to kill Someshta, and is successful. Rand gets involves in a battle....and because it is so incredibly rare for people to survive battles, he manages this impossible task (was he actually in imminent danger of death at any point?) before going off to fight someone who wasn't intending to kill, but to capture/turn him. In effect, those incidents you mention were ones where people managed to survive no-one making any serious attempt to kill them. Miraculous. How much of your life has been lived with you defying the odds by managing to survive no-one trying to kill you? I have survived almost every day of my life with no attempt on my life, and it's a miracle no-one killed me on those days no-one was trying to. Any more cases of survival against all odds, Bob? How about that incident in LOC when Rand visits Fel. He really ran the gauntlet trying to get there. How on earth did he manage to survive his chat with a philosopher?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Things happen against all odds around ta'veren, especially when 3 are present, and one as strong as Rand. Even if Balthamel and Aginor HAD been going to kill Rand they didnt expect to find him with an Aes Sedai or a Nym, and even if they did there is still the aspect of three ta'veren

[Bob T Dwarf]

Aginor and Balthamel, a scientist and a spymaster, show up with the intention of seizing the Eye, not with killing those they find. Aginor doesn't make any serious attempt to kill anyone, because he is too focused on his goal, and then he kills himself. Balthamel makes a serious attempt to kill Someshta, and is successful. Rand gets involves in a battle....and because it is so incredibly rare for people to survive battles, he manages this impossible task (was he actually in imminent danger of death at any point?) before going off to fight someone who wasn't intending to kill, but to capture/turn him. In effect, those incidents you mention were ones where people managed to survive no-one making any serious attempt to kill them. Miraculous. How much of your life has been lived with you defying the odds by managing to survive no-one trying to kill you? I have survived almost every day of my life with no attempt on my life, and it's a miracle no-one killed me on those days no-one was trying to. Any more cases of survival against all odds, Bob? How about that incident in LOC when Rand visits Fel. He really ran the gauntlet trying to get there. How on earth did he manage to survive his chat with a philosopher?

 

Rand had bubkis.  Ba'alzamon had centuries of training, experience and fully developed strength.  He should have been able to tie Rand in knots and stuff him in a bag.

 

Instead, Rand gets a hangover and Baalzy becomes a crispy critter. 

 

Yeah, that's realistic... NOT.