How great is ji'e'toh?

[maximuswynn]

Ji'e'toh is the greatest honor system ever created and I think we all agree in this area so far. When I see it in the books I almost wish it was constitutional, a daily part of our lives. We could learn so much and it would bring back the GOOD world out of us. I mean, look at the Aiel, I love the way they behave. Ji'e'toh is their greatest - Jordan's greatest - gift to his readers, all humanity and the world.

[balefireruinssteaks]

The Chinese honor codes are similiar to ji'e'toh in my opinion.  I've always thought that we could benefit from spending more time (in America) learning more about honor.

[RAND AL THOR]

The part where you can't lie and all that is really nice.

But gai'shain for a year is insane.

And meeting toh via a beating is more insane yet. I would never ever adopt something where you are beaten like that! Its your choice of course, but all the same.....

 

I especialli like that fact that once toh is met, the cause for the toh is forgotten. Nice. ;D

[maximuswynn]

Yeah.Like I'm so sorry I killed your hubby, but you beated me now, my toh is met, wanna a cup of oosquai?lol.

However, jokes aside, it can teach us much on integrity and as it was said you meet your toh any way you like, it soesn't have to be a beating.

[RAND AL THOR]

but you beated me now

 

::)

 

wanna a cup of oosquai?lol.

 

Yup please.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

But gai'shain for a year is insane.

And meeting toh via a beating is more insane yet. I would never ever adopt something where you are beaten like that! Its your choice of course, but all the same.....

UNQUOTE

 

Nah I think it makes perfect sense in a society where everything is centered on fighting. I agree that ji'e'toh is great, and Im surprised that so many people find it complicated. It all makes sense. Rand is a slow learner I think, because when Aviendha was explaining bits to him and he was like "errr I dont get it" and I was thinking of course, it makes sense. Not that hard to grasp and a great idea.

[RAND AL THOR]

In A Path of Daggers, there was a scene where Aviendha felt that she had shamed Elayne repeatedly. She was considering suicide. :o :o :o

 

Surely that is an extreme? ;)

[maximuswynn]

I like it and yes it is very simple. Aviendha is a little tooooooo serious. Ji'e'toh is simple and to the point, I'd love it if it were a law of society.

[Cockta]

I think Rand was acting that he didn't understand Ji'e'Toh.

 

People could learn a lot of Ji'e'Toh, not only in America, but many places elsewhere. Europe, for instance.

[Vemynal]

i think Avienda was taking it a little too seriously

 

We even have from Bair that Maidin's in particular take their honor to seriously, including former maidins

[maximuswynn]

eXACTLY. Honor and obligation, two things we forgot how to appreciate, but still seem vital for our cultural and general survival.

[Ashaman Kovan]

My favorite part about the Aiel is just how fatalistic they are about everything. They take things as they are and don't worry about the way they wish things could be. One of my all time favorite sayings is the whole "Life is a dream, we must all awake sometime". I love that.

[Cockta]

I totally agree with that. It is sad that many look upon the Aiel as savage, wild people.

[Tara_Manier_Sedai]

While reading the series, I found myself acting on ji'e'toh without thinking about it.  For example, the other day I "shamed myself" (I actually thought those exact words when it happened!) by blatently ignoring one of my chores.  Later, after it was finally taken care of, I met my toh by cleaning parts of the house (Which I never do unless forced... ::)  ;)) and taking over some of my mother's chores for the day without being asked.  My mother was shocked to say the least.  When asked about it I responded calmly "I ignored my duty and payed the price for it."  There have been other similar instances as well. 

 

I definately think that the world would be a WAY better place if more people lived by ji'e'toh.

[RAND AL THOR]

You should instead have told your mother:

 

I have met my toh.

 

She would have called a doctor at once. ;D :o

[maximuswynn]

I did that once and she said: "Ok now let's move on to the rest of your anatomy!"lol I mean this woman is so calm, she knows whata quack I am about the series and never mocks me. Remarkable.haha

[Tara_Manier_Sedai]

Rand must be really slow in the head or something because ji'e'toh is not complicated.

[maximuswynn]

I totally agree, excuse me for my french, but I wanted to bitchslap him whan Avindha was explaining it, how difficult is it? Jeez!

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I totally agree, excuse me for my french, but I wanted to bitchslap him whan Avindha was explaining it, how difficult is it? Jeez!

Sure, the concept is easy to understand, but the detail?

 

Why do you have to let a silversmith work for 1 day for himself for every however many days he works for you? Why doesn't this rule apply to other crafts? Why is talking to a man about his mother-in-law tantamount to starting a feud? Why are there various exceptions made to blacksmiths?

 

Now, you can take a reasonable stab at answering any of those (and many more) but we don't know, neither (presumably) does Rand.

 

Given that the Aiel are so touchy about it, yeah, I'd be confused. I'd also be worried about getting it wrong.

 

The Devil is in the detail.

[RAND AL THOR]

True thin inn keeper.

 

We have only been exposed to the crust of ji e toh. The mantle, outer core and inner core are hidden from us still. But Rand needs to know it all.

[maximuswynn]

I don't know about Rand's mental retardation in understanding this honor and obligation system, but I can easily understand ji'e'toh and try to live by it.I emphasize "try".

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

We have only been exposed to the crust of ji e toh. The mantle, outer core and inner core are hidden from us still. But Rand needs to know it all.

And the hidden parts, known only to Aiel are scary.

 

Let's face it, Aviendha, possibly the bravest woman in the series, considers killing herself because she has "shamed" Elayne because of ji e toh. Note: She never shows it and never lets it get in the way of anything, and yet, there it is.

 

That's nuts.

 

Its a great concept for a work of fantasy, but in real life? Come on!

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I totally agree with that. It is sad that many look upon the Aiel as savage, wild people.

Hmmmm....

 

OK, I'm a Wetlander. I don't understand Ji e Toh.

 

I ask an Aiel about his mother-in-law.

or,

I hand an Aiel a sword.

or,

I ask an Aiel why they are performing some arduous task as a punishment.

or

I dare to ask about how a 3 person marriage works.

or

I ask if a Maiden of the Spear has to kill every man she sleeps with. (An example from the books).

 

etc., etc.

 

All of the above would either end in violence or an embaressed silence.

 

What am I supposed to think?

 

The same ignorant views occur in our day to day life. For example, the stereotype of Arabs and/or Muslims (because clearly, all Arabs are Muslim, right?!  :-\) today, or the assumption that a black mans brain was smaller than that of a white man (50 years ago)....

 

Need I go on?

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

The Aiel do not value their own lives or the lives of others.  Perhaps the constant fighting has desensitized them to violence and death.  I believe that they have transferred their value of human life to value of their Ji.  That is why they are so sensitive about it - the instinct to survive is twisted into a need to be honorable no matter the consequences.

 

THIS IS WRONG

 

The Aiel are blinded by Ji e Toh.  It makes them feel aloof.  Because of it, they are unable to understand other cultures.  Their brutality stems from it, as do their prejudices.

 

Ji e Toh is wrong because it attempts to codify morality.  Morals are not absolute and no one agrees completely on what is or is not moral.  This is not to say that laws are unnecessary.  However, laws should not tell people how to feel, but how to act (or not act).

 

As an example, take Aviendha's situation.  She promises Elayne to look after Rand, but falls in love with him.  She suppresses her feelings for him because she has been taught they are shameful, and even offers to let Elayne kill her for acting on those feelings.  Where in all of this tangled mess is the good of Ji e Toh?

 

It is true that the maidens (and Ave) seem to take Ji e Toh more seriously than other Aiel.  However, there is another example of Ji e Toh messing up people's lives.  I forget his name, but there is an Aiel who kills a man (in Cairhien I think) who gets the Dragons tattooed on his arms.  He murders a man who in all probability meant absolutely no offense, then turns himself in to be hung because that is Rand's law, and he has pledged to obey that law.  I think that that Aiel knew exactly what would happen as soon as he saw the guy with the tattoos - he would murder the man for violating Aiel customs, then turn himself in and die on a rope - all because of his convoluted system.

 

BTW, I think that the Aiel sense of humor partly comes from their knowledge that Ji e Toh fairly often throws them into these kinds of impossible situations.

[Tara_Manier_Sedai]

The Aiel do not value their own lives or the lives of others.  Perhaps the constant fighting has desensitized them to violence and death.  I believe that they have transferred their value of human life to value of their Ji.  That is why they are so sensitive about it - the instinct to survive is twisted into a need to be honorable no matter the consequences.

 

THIS IS WRONG

 

The Aiel are blinded by Ji e Toh.  It makes them feel aloof.  Because of it, they are unable to understand other cultures.  Their brutality stems from it, as do their prejudices.

 

Ji e Toh is wrong because it attempts to codify morality.  Morals are not absolute and no one agrees completely on what is or is not moral.  This is not to say that laws are unnecessary.  However, laws should not tell people how to feel, but how to act (or not act).

 

As an example, take Aviendha's situation.  She promises Elayne to look after Rand, but falls in love with him.  She suppresses her feelings for him because she has been taught they are shameful, and even offers to let Elayne kill her for acting on those feelings.  Where in all of this tangled mess is the good of Ji e Toh?

 

It is true that the maidens (and Ave) seem to take Ji e Toh more seriously than other Aiel.  However, there is another example of Ji e Toh messing up people's lives.  I forget his name, but there is an Aiel who kills a man (in Cairhien I think) who gets the Dragons tattooed on his arms.  He murders a man who in all probability meant absolutely no offense, then turns himself in to be hung because that is Rand's law, and he has pledged to obey that law.  I think that that Aiel knew exactly what would happen as soon as he saw the guy with the tattoos - he would murder the man for violating Aiel customs, then turn himself in and die on a rope - all because of his convoluted system.

 

BTW, I think that the Aiel sense of humor partly comes from their knowledge that Ji e Toh fairly often throws them into these kinds of impossible situations.

 

Not really.  To the Aiel, ji'e'toh isn't just a code to live by, it's part of them, embeded into their blood by generations of followers.  They do value life; they just have a more realistic hold on life.  They know that they will not live forever, and they accept that.  They realize that one day everyone must wake from the dream and expect others to realize it too.  Their ji is important to them.  Everyone deserves a certain extent of honor; the Aiel know their honor and live by it.  Their ji is their most prized posession.

 

It's true, the Aiel understand other cultures as well as they do snow.  However, just because they do not understand something does not mean that they are brutal or prejudiced.  The only wetlanders the Aiel have ever simply struck out against are the Cairhienin, and that was only because King Laman decided he wanted a throne made out of Avendoraldera; the Aiel think of the Aiel War as more of a police action anyway.

 

Ji'e'toh does not attempt to "codify morality."  Not all Aiel think something is right just because it's tradition; they mearly don't voice these opionions because it would be shameful to disrespect tradition.

 

As for Aviendha, she see's her toh towards Elayne as a cause worth dying over.  She feels that she failed Elayne's request because she couldn't protect Rand from herself.  She sees herself as a threat to Rand's relationship with Elayne, and feels that such a threat should be ended.  Though, in Aviendha's case, I think that she takes it a little too far...

 

I have a counter-example for you; Egwene.  She's not even Aiel, yet she admits her lies to the Wise Ones as a Maiden would and sees that her toh is met by being severely whipped.  The man you are refering to put himself in a similar situation and was simply meeting his toh.

 

Aiel humor is strange, let's leave it at that.