Would you accept Rand returning to life?

[RAND AL THOR]

 

Nope. He used CPR on Mat, not the Power.

 

CPR. can that revive a dead person? ??? ;D

To 'die' and live again seems to say VERY clearly that he will die.

 

Also,

and live once more a part of what was!"

 

 

 

This seems to link Mat to his old memories. He is living with memories of 'what was.' I think that is the meaning of that particular phrase. Arguements welcome.

[trakand_01]

 

Nope. He used CPR on Mat, not the Power.

 

CPR. can that revive a dead person? ??? ;D

To 'die' and live again seems to say VERY clearly that he will die.

 

 

Yep, it can revive a person who had gone through physical trauma such as Mat had done, because until the brain dies, you are not dead. After the heart stops beating, the brain continues to attempt to make connections for up to around 8 minutes. When it fails to make connections, and lack of oxygen finally make it too weak, the brain dies and only THEN are you truly dead. Until then you are simply... asphyxiated. Mat's brain was still alive and all Rand had to do was to help it along by encouraging his heart (and lungs) to take up the messages the brain was still sending to it.

 

Which is why lifeguards use CPR on individuals who have 'drowned' because, if they get them out of the water quick enough, the brain is still alive and they have a chance of stimulating the life-organs again.

[RAND AL THOR]

Ah I see, trakand.

Then the next question is what the aelfinn would consider 'dead'

 

But brain death be considered 'dead' by the Aelfinn? I think they meant utterly and irrevivably dead. And that would mean that the Rhavin incident is where he dies.

 

Note: Imagine if Matt dies and returns in AMOL (highly unlikely though). That would a nice slap in all our faces for discussing when this has happened when it is YET to happen! ;D

[Guest Dreadlord]

There is no doubt in my mind that Mat dying and living again is when Rahvin killed him and Rand balefired Rahvin, bringing Mat back.

 

The bit about living a part of what was, in my opinion, could very well refer to his link to the Horn of Valere. Mat was the Hornblower, but that connection was severed when he died. But when Rahvin "had no longer killed Mat" that brought the connection between Mat and the Horn back into play. Of course, it could have refered to the Band of the Red Hand instead of that.

 

But Mat definitely wasnt dead at Rhuidean, he was unconscious. We have seen before that Rand cannot resurrect people. He used CPR.

[Lord Nik]

There is no doubt in my mind that Mat dying and living again is when Rahvin killed him and Rand balefired Rahvin, bringing Mat back.

 

The bit about living a part of what was, in my opinion, could very well refer to his link to the Horn of Valere. Mat was the Hornblower, but that connection was severed when he died. But when Rahvin "had no longer killed Mat" that brought the connection between Mat and the Horn back into play. Of course, it could have refered to the Band of the Red Hand instead of that.

 

But Mat definitely wasnt dead at Rhuidean, he was unconscious. We have seen before that Rand cannot resurrect people. He used CPR.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Mat dying and living again was when he was hanged in Rhuidean. He was dead, Rand brought him back. Mat definitley was not dead when Rhavin "killed" him. Because looking to everything we know about Balefire, Rhavin NEVER killed Mat. Rhavin, has never touched, Mat , Avi, Asmo, he didnt kill any of them. Because EVERYTHING  we know about balefire shows that THAT never happened. So how does a prophecy come true about someone coming back to life when he was never killed!

[benr]

I read it; you read it; everyone there saw it and remembers.  He (Mat) died, and then he wasn't dead.  Prophecy fulfilled.  Isn't balefire fun?  Both answers are logically correct - that is why its a paradox. Rhuidean, however, was a near death experience, not death, so my vote goes to the Rhavin episode.

[Lord Nik]

Rhuidean, however, was a near death experience, not death

really? you can base that on... what again?

[Mr Ares]

Rhuidean, however, was a near death experience, not death

really? you can base that on... what again?

This, perhaps:

Bill Garrett's report of RJ's appearance at Balticon 30 (April 1996) mentions: "(Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and then living again.)" Tim Kington reports that, when asked how long Mat had hung from the Tree of Life in Rhuidean, RJ replied, "Long enough to be almost dead" (emphasis mine) [post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2004].

?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Its based on the fact that Mat wasnt dead. Rand didnt channel when he revived Mat.

 

Its simple. One minute Mat was dead, the next he was alive. No two ways about it. The prophecy was fulfilled when Rand balefired Rahvin. RAND CAN NOT RESURRECT.

 

Thanks for the RJ quote. Sometimes it really annoys me when it takes a quote from RJ to clear up something so obvious. But still, I expect people will find something about the way its worded to make it sound like RJ said something completely different.

[Lord Nik]

but mat was never killed by Rhavin

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ahh, but he was.

 

Rand merely made it like it never happened, rendering Mat no longer dead.  But, dead he had been.

[Lord Nik]

was that before or after it never happened?

[benr]

Well, apparantly it WAS Rhavin, or when Rand balefired Rhavin Mat would not have been back alive.

[Lord Nik]

well mat IS alive and Rhavin didnt even exist when mat jumped through that gateway to the city

[Paviel]

I'm pretty sure that Robert Jordan himself said (a) that Mat had been hanged from Avendesora long enough to ALMOST be dead; i.e. he didn't die then, and (b) that Mat being zapped by Rahvin and Rahvin being balefired fulfilled the prophecy about him dying and living again. And I think he said both in the same interview, but I can't remember when and where it was.

[Guest Dreadlord]

So, we have had an RJ quote stating that Rhuidean WAS that incident, yet there is still question? You might as well make up a story yourselves. you obviously dont believe what RJ has said so why waste your time reading the books?

[RAND AL THOR]

I fail to see why Nik is still trying to prove his point, especially since there's no point to prove anymore.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ditto. If you dont believe the RJ quote, which eliminates the possibility of Rand reviving Mat 100% whichever way you look at it, then you might as well not bother discussing the matter.

[Lord Nik]

I fail to see why Nik is still trying to prove his point, especially since there's no point to prove anymore.

There is always a point to prove and Im just going off what i know about balefire. As far as no point... Rhavin never killed Mat.. Thats my point.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTING MYSELF

So, we have had an RJ quote stating that Rhuidean WAS that incident, yet there is still question?

UNQUOTE

 

Before anyone says anything, I realise the error I made. I meant to say Rhuidean WASNT the incident.

 

And Rahvin did kill Mat. Balefire just undid it. We can go over this a million times. Balefire makes it AS IF it never happened, as our resident dwarf said earlier.

 

Later on, at the end of the book when we see Asmodeans POV, he is thinking to himself he doesnt know what happened, but he had a pretty good idea. Asmodean is a coward, but he isnt stupid. He knew he died and balefire brought him back. Im sure Mat questions what happened as well. If Rahvin had never killed them, they wouldnt have questioned what had happened. We understand what your getting at Nik but it isnt quite right mate. Rahvin DID kill them; I remember reading it

[Lord Nik]

UGHH PARADOX BURNS MY BRAIN!!!!!

[RAND AL THOR]

Hopefully this will put an end to this.

 

If, as my dear Lord Nik claims, balefire totally undid Rhavin killing Mat, then how does Rand retain the memory of that happenning?

 

Rhavin killed Mat. Rand balefired Rhavin. What Rhavin did no longer happened. But that can't be 100% accurate because others have the memory of seeing Mat and Asmo dead.

[Guest Dreadlord]

The actions are undone, the memory remains. Balefire doesnt change history as people know it, it merely changes a few bits about it. People are aware of those changes.

[Alakir]

First off, yes. I would accept it aslong as it makes sense. I personally feel that this even more important now that Mr. RJ nolonger is with us to finish the final book.

 

I've read through most of the issues and theories in this thread and just made an account to answer some of this from my perspective.

 

First of all, I fail to see how you could properly introduce the scenario where anyone would want to fake Rands death. There is just not enough purpose behind that thought that I can see. The foretelling says that there will be three women over Rands grave. We all know these women, and I for one am pretty sure that it won't be any fake, or  death by old age. What strikes me is that the foretellings and prophecies basically have crated an opening for basically anything to happen. Which ofcourse probably was intended. I may love the series but I personally feel that a heavy and sad ending were the light triumph is what would fully immortalize this epic tale. In a perfect version of  "A memory of Light"; Rand would spill his lifeblood on the mountain of Shayol Ghul, and in his dying moment what would keep Rand from falling to the Shadow is that he actually remembered how it was to love and be loved. Remember that Cadsuane Sedai has a purpose, she must make Rand feel again. I believe that in his dying moment he will unleash something, a counterstrike that will finally seal the  Dark One and remove his touch from the world yet again. Regarding, "To live you must die." I believe that is refering to the Karaethon Cycle, and the immortal dragonsoul. I do not think the man, Rand al'Thor from Eamonds field will survive.

  And as for the theories with T'a'R, the bonding of Birgitte was to keep her alive by giving her the supernatural healing abilities of a warder, not to keep her attuned to the world. The fact that she was ripped out of the cycle of the horn was an extremely cruel thing that Moggy did to her. So I do not think that is an "option" to do to Rand, or rather the Dragon. I've only read the series twice though, so I may have missed some detail that someone else haven't.

  As for Rands body, and the fact that he has been maimed, burned and nearly destroyed. I am pretty sure that is to create a contrast when he finally burst, when the boy in him finally burst forth and he starts to feel again. Hardship like that and contrasts is what makes people feel and react.

  Finally, the act of using Balefire against Rand feels kinda farfetched. Balefire against the Dragon, which is the weapon created by the creator to halt the Dark One once every cycle would surely destroy the Wheel.

 

Now, excuse me if I've in anyway missunderstood anyone. There was alot of replies to workthough :)

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

I may love the series but I personally feel that a heavy and sad ending were the light triumph is what would fully immortalize this epic tale. In a perfect version of  "A memory of Light"; Rand would spill his lifeblood on the mountain of Shayol Ghul, and in his dying moment what would keep Rand from falling to the Shadow is that he actually remembered how it was to love and be loved

UNQUOTE

 

Not that Im disagreeing with you, but I think I would be gutted if Rand died but somehow was alive again when it finishes. Throughout the whole series he has worried and panicked about losing the Last Battle, and wishing he could live after yet "knowing he couldnt" add that to how much he has gone through, RJ developed Rand in a very realistic way I think. He feels alone, and has made himself so hard he can barely be touched by emotion. Cadsuanes task is to make him feel again. I would love to see Rand succeed and live to feel the satisfaction, the assurance that what he did saved everyone in the whole world including himself.