Another question I've never seen asked...

[Bob T Dwarf]

How was Asmodean able to "Skim" to Rhuidean?

 

According to everything we've been told, in order to Skim to a place, one has to know the destination intimately.  At least as intimately as you'd need to know the starting point in order to Travel.  Asmo had never been to Rhuidean.  He had no idea about any of its details.  At most he might have had a general idea of the area where it was located and the fact that it was hidden inside a fogbank.

 

So, how he do dat?

 

 

[JenLenaMom]

Didn't he skim to just outside the fog bank?  I think I remember Rand having to disipate some sort of "red wires" haning in the fog that he assumed Asmo put there.  Been a while since I read that book though.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, he did Skim to just outside the fogbank.

 

But, so far as we know, he'd never seen any of the terrain; he'd never been any closer to Rhuidean than outside Cold Rocks Hold.

 

So, how was he able to form a clear enough picture of what the terrain and the fogbank looked like that would satisfy the requirements for Skimming?  And, why, when Asmo knew how to Travel, and could have made a Gateway directly to the Square where all the artifacts had been left,  would he choose to Skim instead?

 

Lanfear obviously used a Gateway.  Both when she arrived and when she left.

 

Asmo's whole Skimming thing just doesn't make sense on a lot of levels.

[Luckers]

Well, the thing is that with skimming you don't actually have to have been to the destination, or know it in the way you need to 'know' the point of origen as in Traveling. With Skimming you just need to know the location relative to yourself. We see the Wondergirls skim to Ebou Dar with just knowledge of a point from a map. Egwene does the same thing later on in transporting Lan.

[RAND AL THOR]

I seem to remember that LTT and the 100 friends TRAVELLED to Shayol Ghul to seal the bore. How would THAT be possible, since surely LTT doesn't know his destination well at all?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I won't try to split hairs about how well one needs to "know" the destination in order to Skim, but my reading has always been that you need to know more than some general idea of where you're going, or you could arrive at any number of other similar looking places.

 

Traveling, on the other hand, you don't need to know anything about the destination.  And, it's merely a matter of stepping from one side of a Gateway to the other in order to get there.  No travel time at all.

 

So, even if some vague idea of his destination would be enough to get him there, why spend the time Skimming when he could have just Traveled?  Especially when Traveling would have guaranteed that he'd arrive at exactly where he wanted to be?  Why give Rand the time to figure out what was really going on and provide a way for him to pursue and thwart the plan?

 

Like I said, the whole Skimming thing just doesn't make sense.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I seem to remember that LTT and the 100 friends TRAVELLED to Shayol Ghul to seal the bore. How would THAT be possible, since surely LTT doesn't know his destination well at all?

 

That's the weird thing about how Jordan set it all up.  Skimming you need to know nothing about your point of origin but you need to know the destination intimately.  Traveling, you need to know nothing about the destination, you just need to know your starting point intimately.

 

So, LTT and the 100 would have only needed to know they wanted to go to the immediate vicinity of the Bore.

[JenLenaMom]

Where did Asmo leave from?  Did he have time to "learn" it well enough to travel?  Maybe that's why he skimmed.  Also didn't he spend alot of time in TAR poking around the fog? He could have learned the spot well that way.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rhuidean was shielded from T'a'r.  Totally invisible and unreachable from there.

[JenLenaMom]

What I meant was during his time in TAR could he have learned the ground enough to be able to skim to that place.  Remember someone sees him walking around Rhuidean in TAR but doesn't know it's him.

[metria31183]

Asmo went to just outside the fog.  You could go there in TAR just not into where the fog was.

[JenLenaMom]

That was my point he skimmed to just outside the fog.  The question was how could he know the location well enough to skim.  I thought if perhaps his time, probably in the flesh, in TAR poking around the fog trying to get in, gave him enough knowledge of the area to skim.  Obviously his initial thought was to go to Rhuidean in TAR and get the goodies, but he couldn't b/c it was shielded, he then spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to break the shield.  when he finally realized he couldn't he decided to throw caution to the wind and go in the real world.  But where ever he left from he may have not know well enough to travel from so he had to skim.

[Bob T Dwarf]

There's logic to what you say, but consider this...

 

Asmo knew where he was well enough to arrange a diversion covering attack by Shadowspawn so he could slip away to Rhuidean.  Now, Drakhar can fly fairly fast, but they still need to know what landmarks to look for.  That requires a good description of the terrain they're supposed to be heading to.

 

If Asmo knew where he was well enough to have arranged that covering attack, then he surely knew it well enough to Travel from.

[JenLenaMom]

Are drakhar intelligent enough for that?  I'm not being sarcastic I really don't know, I always thought of them more like channeler seeking missles.  You aim at the general person you want, and they take out any channeler b/w them and the target.  Maybe Asmo put tied up thread in place to lead the shadpwspawn, after all there were no AM around at the time to find it and wonder what it was and Rand was busy revealing himself at the time.

[Luckers]

Asmo knew where he was well enough to arrange a diversion covering attack by Shadowspawn so he could slip away to Rhuidean.  Now, Drakhar can fly fairly fast, but they still need to know what landmarks to look for.  That requires a good description of the terrain they're supposed to be heading to.

 

What? There was no shadowspawn attack during his trip to Rhuidean--the diversion was Couladin, and the fake dragons on his arms.

 

I won't try to split hairs about how well one needs to "know" the destination in order to Skim, but my reading has always been that you need to know more than some general idea of where you're going, or you could arrive at any number of other similar looking places.

 

Yet, seemingly that is the case, as we see it done so.

[JenLenaMom]

Asmo knew where he was well enough to arrange a diversion covering attack by Shadowspawn so he could slip away to Rhuidean.  Now, Drakhar can fly fairly fast, but they still need to know what landmarks to look for.  That requires a good description of the terrain they're supposed to be heading to.

 

What? There was no shadowspawn attack during his trip to Rhuidean--the diversion was Couladin, and the fake dragons on his arms.

 

 

lol that shows how bad my memory is!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Lanfear:

... Scorn weighted the words like stones. "I brought Asmodean to teach you, but he was always one to leap to another plan if the first proved difficult.  Now he thinks he has found something better for himself in Rhuidean.  And he is off to take it while you stand here.  Couladin, the Draghkar, all to hold your attention while he made sure.  All my plans for nothing because you must be stubborn! ...

 

Asmo arranged for the Draghkar attack.  All part of the diversion to cover what he was really up to.

[aevogt]

Yes, he did Skim to just outside the fogbank.

 

But, so far as we know, he'd never seen any of the terrain; he'd never been any closer to Rhuidean than outside Cold Rocks Hold.

 

So, how was he able to form a clear enough picture of what the terrain and the fogbank looked like that would satisfy the requirements for Skimming?  And, why, when Asmo knew how to Travel, and could have made a Gateway directly to the Square where all the artifacts had been left,  would he choose to Skim instead?

 

Lanfear obviously used a Gateway.  Both when she arrived and when she left.

 

Asmo's whole Skimming thing just doesn't make sense on a lot of levels.

 

Nynaeve encounters Asmodean poking around the fog bank outside Rhuidean while in TAR, just before Birgitte takes her away from there by force so as not to disturb him, so he did indeed know the area around well enough to Skim to.

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK.  Granting that.  Still, why Skim?  Traveling would take him to the same spot, and infinitely faster.  Neither method would get him any closer to the Shield that protected Rhuidean than the other.

 

All Skimming really does is provide Rand with the time needed to catch-up.  Dumb in the extreme unless there is some totally inexplicable hidden reason for Asmo to want to be caught.

 

Like I keep saying, Skimming makes no sense whatsoever given Asmo's known motives.

[bRANDan]

Asmo couldn't Travel. Rand asked him to teach him how to, but Asmo said he had never been able to. I think this is the only time we see anyone powerful enough to weave a gateway that can't Travel. Well, Travelling is a Talent, but it seems like the only Talent we see where the majority has it and only a small few don't.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Hmmmm... Have you got a reference for that.  I'm not having any luck turning up the passage you refer to.

[aevogt]

Untrue bRANDon.

 

Asmodean cannot travel while shackled by Lanfear's special shield.  He was more than powerful enough before she did that.

 

Asmodean cannot travel from Alcair Dal to Rhuidean because traveling requires knowledge of the starting place, Alcair Dal, where he had only just arrived.

 

One more time.

 

Skimming - When you know the place you are going to better than where you are coming from.

 

Traveling  - Where you know your point of origin but not precisely where you are going to.

[bRANDan]

Hmmmm... Have you got a reference for that.  I'm not having any luck turning up the passage you refer to

 

In the Fires of Heaven somewhere, don't have an exact reference for you, sorry. I'm at work without my books. I'll try to look up the passage later after work.

 

Untrue bRANDon.

 

Asmodean cannot travel while shackled by Lanfear's special shield.  He was more than powerful enough before she did that.

 

I now he is powerful enough to make the weave, I said that in my post, but he cannot, he does not know it or else cannot make it work. If he could then he could have laid the skeins to show Rand, as Sorilea did for Cads.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not necessarily.  One of the dangers we all face is thinking that because one character thinks to do a thing, all other characters will think the same.  In point of fact, Sorilea and Asmodean don't really think much alike at all.

 

I finally found the passage ( I think ):

...Asmodean claimed there was a faster method called Traveling for using a gateway, but he had not been able to teach it, partly because he did not have the strength to make the gateway while wearing Lanfear's shield.  ...

 

It seems to never have occurred to him to demonstrate a weak form of the Weave like Sorilea did with Cadsuane.  Can't find any reference to him being unable to Travel himself.  It also takes a form of gateway to enter T'a'r in-the-flesh, and he'd certainly been able to manage that.

[aevogt]

Asmodean is also an unwilling teacher and will likely lie at any time, whatever he says about his new loyalty.  He is still that same man who willingly gave his soul to the DO.

 

"I am not strong enough to teach you" keeps Rand from knowing too much while giving Asmodean the appearance of cooperating.  It's Rand's fault for not pressing him further.

 

 

 

or it's an error that was never corrected and that would be BLASPHEMY!!!