Matt and Tuon...what's next?

[GrandpaG]

To fulfill the Seanchan prophecies, Rand has to kneel to the Crystal Throne which now belongs to Tuon.  Maybe she and Matt will be in Ebou Dar some night doing something with red ribbons and daggers when Rand pops in for a visit.  He'll drop his new fake left hand onto the floor, it'll roll under the bed, and he'll kneel down to retrieve it.  That should count, right?

 

No, really.

 

Matt knows Rand.  Matt is "married" to Tuon.  Should be the perfect bridge to get the Seanchan on Rand's side for TG, shouldn't it?

 

Of course, this can only happen after Matt, Thom, and Jain Farstrider rescue Moraine...first things first!  Should get interesting.  Has Tuon admitted yet that SHE can learn to channel?  ???

[Avery]

I have always had the suspicion that even though that particular Seanchan prophecy is fake, it will be fulfilled in subtle way, a way RJ doesn't overtly recognize. Similar to your example, Rand will bend down innocently before the Throne (or perhaps a person who respresents the Throne, that is, the office). Or, Rand will knowingly fulfill the prophecy for his own reasons as he's done before with Callandor and the Aiel. Either would be an interesting commentary on the nature of prophecy (in that all prophecy is self-fulfilled).

 

Avery

[Juggler]

I'm sure Tuon admitted she "could" learn but decides against it at some point in the wagon travelling from Ebou Dar.

 

Kneeling to the crystal throne could just be a way of saying he submits to a plan of Tuon's a common phrase is I kneel or bow to your wisdom. Or Tuon may demand he kneels to her for a treaty which rand is desperate for, and he may do it if Cadsuane has taught him and the ashaman their "lesson" and rand becomes a bit less stiff.

[GrandpaG]

I like seeing Rand fulfilling the prophecies of the Aiel, Sea Folk, and Seanchan because they were not manipulated by Aes Sedai (that we know of).  "Gitara Moroso and company (including Verin Sedai)" staged all of the rest of them including setting up Siuan and Moraine as unwitting players...as usual, no proof...just spewing treasonous poison upon the soil. >:D

[CUBAREY]

What Tuon admits is that she could learn to channel but chooses not to. To her channeling is akin to a sin, one who channels is less then a person. Those who are born with the spark are bad enough but those who choose to learn to channel are even worse. Her refusal to learn to channel and her view of Aides Sadie must thus be seen as views based on moral judgments.

[Paviel]

Keep in mind that the entire royal family except Tuon has supposedly been wiped out by Semirhage. With the resulting anarchy, there may well be no Crystal Throne for Rand to kneel to.

 

Rand's treaty with Tuon will probably involve certain concessions to her that could be interpreted as bowing or kneeling. He obviously means to fulfill the Aelfinn's prophecy (and Bair and Amys' vision of him cutting the land in half with a sword) in this way, so if there's anything in the west or the south that the Seanchan haven't conquered (Illian, maybe?), he'll have to let Tuon take it.

 

I'm pretty sure that Tear (in the southeast) will remain in Rand's control even if Illian doesn't, and there's no telling how Arad Doman (in the northwest) is going to fall...

[nosscire]

Well, the part of Rand kneeling for the crystal throne is almost certainly fake. Added by some seanchan.

 

However, that doesn't mean it won't happen. Simply, Rand needs the seanchan. He can't have a 2 border war.  Tuon will never budge on him bowing before her. At the same time, I have a hard time seeing Rand bowing for anyone.

 

This just popped up in my mind, no idea if it has any cover by the books. Isn't Cadsuane somehow supposed to make Rand eat his pride and stop the whole "everyone must do exacly as I say or die" thing? This might be it.

 

Also even if the whole part is written by a seanchan, it MIGHT still be a real prophecy. There's nothing to say that not a Damane could have seen the future and that is the reason it has been added, just like the other prophesies.

[Mr Ares]

Well, the part of Rand kneeling for the crystal throne is almost certainly fake. Added by some seanchan.

Since when is Ishamael a Seanchan?

 

However, that doesn't mean it won't happen. Simply, Rand needs the seanchan. He can't have a 2 border war. Tuon will never budge on him bowing before her. At the same time, I have a hard time seeing Rand bowing for anyone.

While there is no prophetic requirement for Rand to kneel, there is a prophetic requirement for Rand to "bind the Nine Moons to serve him". So he will kneel, yet she will serve? More likely Rand doesn't kneel, and they ally, and in that she serves him. And Tuon's empire of Seanchan is busy tearing itself apart, while Rand has a huge military backing. Tuon would have to be pretty stupid to start a war against a numerically superior enemy with no hope of reinforcements rather than consolidating existing Seanchan holdings in the Westlands before returning to Seanchan to regain the Empire. While Rand may need Tuon, she also needs him - she can't afford a war either. Plus, Rand is ta'veren, Tuon will budge on the bowing thing.

 

Also even if the whole part is written by a seanchan, it MIGHT still be a real prophecy. There's nothing to say that not a Damane could have seen the future and that is the reason it has been added, just like the other prophesies.

The other prophecies that make up the Karaethon Cycle are the product of a single Aes Sedai's foretellings, IIRC. Even if a damane did have a foretelling, it would have no place in the prophecies of the Dragon.

 

Rand's treaty with Tuon will probably involve certain concessions to her that could be interpreted as bowing or kneeling. He obviously means to fulfill the Aelfinn's prophecy (and Bair and Amys' vision of him cutting the land in half with a sword) in this way, so if there's anything in the west or the south that the Seanchan haven't conquered (Illian, maybe?), he'll have to let Tuon take it.

I really don't see Tuon beng in such a good position that she can demand those sorts of territorial concessions. I would expect something more along the lines of them acknowledging the existing boundaries between their empires. Which can hardly be seen as Rand bowing. But then, I don't see Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne, in any sense.

 

I have always had the suspicion that even though that particular Seanchan prophecy is fake, it will be fulfilled in subtle way, a way RJ doesn't overtly recognize. Similar to your example, Rand will bend down innocently before the Throne (or perhaps a person who respresents the Throne, that is, the office). Or, Rand will knowingly fulfill the prophecy for his own reasons as he's done before with Callandor and the Aiel. Either would be an interesting commentary on the nature of prophecy (in that all prophecy is self-fulfilled).

All prophecy is self-fulfilled? Since when? Since Rand's birth on Dragonmount? (I'm sure that was why Shaiel died there - she thought her unborn child was the Dragon Reborn, so spent her last few minutes crawling onto the slopes of an active volcano...)

[Avery]

All prophecy is self-fulfilled? Since when? Since Rand's birth on Dragonmount? (I'm sure that was why Shaiel died there - she thought her unborn child was the Dragon Reborn, so spent her last few minutes crawling onto the slopes of an active volcano...)

 

"All" was a poor word. But the events of that example that led Shaiel into the Waste, and thus Rand's birth on Dragonmount, are because the prophecy was known. If the prophecy had existed, but no one knew about it, the events wouldn't have taken place, she wouldn't have been sent away by Gittara (I think that's who had the original Fortelling). There are other examples as well. Would Rand have sought Callandor if he didn't know he was expected to?

[Luckers]

The prophecy of Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne is a fake, and impossible besides.

 

Why? Because that prophecy could mean two things. The first is that Rand submits to the Seanchan, metaphorically kneeling to the authority of the Crystal Throne. Such a thing in its very nature requires that they end up in control of him, and that is impossible because the real prophecy states that Rand will bind the nine moons to serve him.

 

The second possibility is that Rand will physically kneel before the Crystal Throne--not implying submittal, just kneeling--except this too is impossible since RJ stated the main sequence novels will never againt go to Seanchan.

 

Thus, the prophecy is proven fake.

[Paviel]

I really don't see Tuon beng in such a good position that she can demand those sorts of territorial concessions. I would expect something more along the lines of them acknowledging the existing boundaries between their empires. Which can hardly be seen as Rand bowing. But then, I don't see Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne, in any sense.

 

Of course Tuon wouldn't demand it. She probably doesn't want Illian in particular.

 

However, Illian is farther south than east, and Rand knows the Aelfinn's prophecy. ("The north and the east must be one; the west and the south must be one...") Obviously Rand intends to claim the north and the east for himself and let the Seanchan take the west and the south. After all, that was the whole point of his attempted parley with the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

 

If Rand holds even a fraction of "the west and the south" (e.g. Illian), or if Seanchan holds anything in "the north and the east" (e.g. Tar Valon), will that affect his odds of winning and surviving Tarmon Gai'don?

[Mr Ares]

I really don't see Tuon beng in such a good position that she can demand those sorts of territorial concessions. I would expect something more along the lines of them acknowledging the existing boundaries between their empires. Which can hardly be seen as Rand bowing. But then, I don't see Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne, in any sense.

Of course Tuon wouldn't demand it. She probably doesn't want Illian in particular.

 

However, Illian is farther south than east, and Rand knows the Aelfinn's prophecy. ("The north and the east must be one; the west and the south must be one...") Obviously Rand intends to claim the north and the east for himself and let the Seanchan take the west and the south. After all, that was the whole point of his attempted parley with the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

 

If Rand holds even a fraction of "the west and the south" (e.g. Illian), or if Seanchan holds anything in "the north and the east" (e.g. Tar Valon), will that affect his odds of winning and surviving Tarmon Gai'don?

Where do "North" and "East" end, and "West" and "South" begin with regard to the Westlands? Is there anything in the middle, and if so who gets it? The Seanchan hold the south and west - not all of them, but then it's slightly ridiculous to say "South starts a mile and a half North of our current northern boundary, give us that land, so the south and west can be as one" (unless you know where the equator is, and are capable of being very precise. How precise does it have to be? Down to atomic level? Northern and southern atoms....). All they need do to fulfill the Aelfinn's requirement is unite - make the two as one, with present boundaries.

[aevogt]

I really don't see Tuon beng in such a good position that she can demand those sorts of territorial concessions. I would expect something more along the lines of them acknowledging the existing boundaries between their empires. Which can hardly be seen as Rand bowing. But then, I don't see Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne, in any sense.

 

In the words oF Mazrim Taim, "Kneel or you will be knelt"  I don't see Rand having too much trouble with Tuon.  Mat married her, Rand didn't.

[water_seeker]

Sometimes kneeling to someone else is a good thing.  Take for example Perrin kneeling to whatsherface in Ghealdan.  Good lord i need to do another readthrough.

[Luckers]

I really don't see Tuon beng in such a good position that she can demand those sorts of territorial concessions. I would expect something more along the lines of them acknowledging the existing boundaries between their empires. Which can hardly be seen as Rand bowing. But then, I don't see Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne, in any sense.

 

In the words oF Mazrim Taim, "Kneel or you will be knelt"  I don't see Rand having too much trouble with Tuon.  Mat married her, Rand didn't.

 

Oh? You don't think 8,000 damane or 800,000 soldiers might perhaps be trouble? How about the only military force with elements capable of going toe to toe with a Trolloc? Or the only military force with aerial capabilities?

 

If Rand attempts the 'kneel or you will be knelt' strategy it will come to war. Simple as that. Tuon expects Rand to kneel and will as such not kneel herself, and the 'be knelt' part... Tuon is not nine Aes Sedai surrounded by hundreds of Asha'men, it would mean war. A war Rand would win--the tactical advantages of Travelling make that a certainty--but how many of his forces die in the doing? It would cripple the Light--not the least because the Seanchan numbers are likely needed to win the Last Battle.

 

My guess is that it will play out as a non-aggression pact. Rand will require that the Seanchan cease all hostile activities including the leashing of marath'damane, but will not demand back those that have already been leashed, nor that conquered nations be made free. He's cold-blooded enough these days to be able to rationalize that--gaining Seanchan numbers versus the loss of it, and his own forces in destroying them--yes, i think he would leave it at that. And Cadsuane's comment about the conquered nations not liking the peace more than suggests thats his intention.

 

And Tuon? She's proud, but she's rationale. Clearly she expects that Rand will kneel to the throne, yet i suspect she's capable of moving past that belief--albeit maybe only in the expectation that sooner of later Rand WILL kneel. Either way since the prophecies say Rand binds the Nine Moons to serve him it seems he will be successful in convincing her--or perhaps in making her realise the realities. Semirhage will no doubt help with that, and possibly there will be some form of Trolloc incursion through the Waygates in the Shadow Coast to help drive the point home.

[GrandpaG]

Tuon will behave EXACTLY as the bugs tell her to...they have never steered her wrong before!

 

I think her time with Matt may have "softened" some of her strict Seachan edges a little, which should help her to accept a facsimile of a kneel from the Dragon Reborn.  She will want to see her people's prophecies fulfilled to give them legitimacy.  Like Berelain (sp?), she will do what is necessary for her people.  If it means stretching her imagination as to whether or not Rand actually kneeled, I think she will accept pretty much whatever is offered on behalf of another win for the Ever Victorious Army...at TG.  No proof...just opinion.  ;)