Why doesn't Demandred understand......

[RAND AL THOR]

I only see Demandred's interest in Elayne at the point in TAR that we are currently discussing. Where else did he stalk her ?

I hope Elayne doesn;t turn out to be Ilyena's reincarnation. Currently I would say that Elyne, Min and Avi are all on an equal status with Rand. If Elayne was actually Ilyena reborn, that may give her some higher status right?

 

If it DOES turn out that Ely is Ily then I wonder how LTT would feel about dying?

[Bob T Dwarf]

From the attack on Mat in Ebou Dar, we learn that the gholam has a double mission.  Kill Mat and capture one of the Wonder Girls, either Elayne or Aviendha.

 

From the Caemlyn scene in T'a'R, we see that Demandred believes that Elayne means to oppose Rand's plans for Andor.

 

We also see that he is puzzling over why the Lord of Chaos, aka Rand, is supposed to be kept alive.  He may believe that the key to spoking Rand's wheels lies in helping Elayne.  If she opposes Rand, then, under the principle of the enemy of my enemy is my friend, he might believe that she would welcome his help.

 

So, while he isn't personally "stalking" her, he may be the one who has the gholam doing so.

[RAND AL THOR]

I would like to revive this thread with the intent that

Rand is not the LOC. There is a part in book 8 where Graendal sends off a fake letter to Ituralde. This is what she thinks after sending the letter:

 

He would ride horses to death reaching Ituralde, and if that message, delivered by Alsalam's close cousin, supposedly coming from the King

himself and with Gray Men trying to stop it, did not satisfy the Great Lord's command to increase chaos, nothing would, short of balefire.

 

She is plainly doing this to increase chaos. She also thinks that the only other powerful way of increasing chaos is to use balefire.

 

Very clearly, this has nothing to do with Rand. If Rand were LOC, then what does the above mean?

 

This suggests that the Forsaken were instructed to increase chaos. Nothing to do with Rand.

 

 

[havoc110]

OK.

 

So let's go back to the title of the thread, then.

If the DO's words are to be taken literally (chaos=chaos),

then what is left for Dem to not understand?

 

I'm not saying definitively that you're incorrect, but

to use one quote to refute other quotes that specifically

mention Rand as Nae'blis isn't going to cut it.  How do you

view those references?  Sure I'm promoting some passages as

more important than others, just like you.  But don't

just ignore the other passages.

 

And if Rand isn't the LoC, then the grand plan laid out

to Dem involves what, fake letter writing?  That leads us back

to the "Dark side is disappointing" thread...

 

How's about a DOUBLE meaning?  Yes chaos means chaos.  The

DO never told the Forsaken to stop with the (general) chaos bit.  He just

added in the "Lord of Chaos" (a specific person, perhaps Rand, perhaps someone else) bit. 

 

Try as I might, I can't imagine TG without some sort of

Dark Rand scenario.  Taim's quote just locks it up for me. 

Sure maybe there's some other grand plan that Dark has been working

towards for the last 5 books, something that will make

it seem like Light could lose it all just at the end, but believe

me, Graendal's letter writing isn't it.

 

I see 3 endings possible:

 

1)  The Dark Rand ending.  Rand turns to evil, Light has to kill him, and somehow he's brought back.

 

2)  A different, yet competent ending, where Taim's quote at the end of KoD signifies that a great, yet unknown master plan of Dark has been completed.  One that doesn't involve a Dark Rand ending.

 

3)  Dark's plans really just consisted of nothing much greater than letter writing (and their equivalent) all along.  It all fizzles for Dark at TG.  Light Rolls.

 

 

What I am most concerned about is ending #3.  That would be such a disappoinment.  To those that feel that ending #3 isn't possible, look

at the Dark incompetence and lack of success through the 1st 11 books.

Look at how a badly organized Light side let by a bunch of teenagers has won at almost every crucial turn.  More of the same might certainly be expected.

 

I would certainly welcome #2, because the saga certainly deserves a good ending, and I realize that just because I can't see a solid ending without Rand turning surely doesn't mean one isn't in the works.

I'm all for any reasonable ending that fits description #2.

 

But I'm pretty sure that Taim doesn't mean that the Forsaken and DF's have reached their "generalized chaos" quota for the 3rd age and now TG can begin...  At that point it all falls back on Dem.  If not get Elayne, then what?  He's been off-camera, doing something, since he received his instructions in LoC.  And remember, there has to be something that he doesn't understand... 

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

I think it is generally agreed that LOC does not refer to Rand. I'm positive it is an instruction to create as much chaos as possible. This idea is strongly supported in book 11 where Semirhage tells Suroth that the Imperial Family is dead. After that Semirhage adds 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule,' hence signifying that the murder of the seanchan royal family complies with the DO's command.

UNQUOTE

 

I disagree.

 

I always thought the Lord of Chaos WAS Rand. Look at what the prophecies say about him. He breaks all ties that bind, he breaks traditions and creates new laws, and he is prophecied to break the world after saving it. Abit like a double-edged sword.

 

On top of that, he is Ta'veren, which means even if the Shadow planned something big there would still be a greater chance than usual that it failed, because of some Ta'veren twist of chance and coincedence. The greatest of all examples of this is Dashiva/Osan'gar. The Shadow slipped him into the Black Tower incognito, and when Taim said Rand should have a full Ashaman with him, Rand pointed without looking and got Dashiva.

 

The meaning of the order Let Rand Rule, I think the plan was this; let him do whatever he wants. He hasn't come far yet, so he can't be anywhere near on the same skill level of Lews Therin, which means he isnt as likely to see the hidden manipulations the Shadow are so used to employing. Let Rand do what he wants, and do whatever can be done to infect and steal it all from him. Again, the best example, the Black Tower. We all know it is infested with Darkfriends on an even greater level than the White Tower. Rand asked Taim to create an army of weapons, which he did, but Rand now doesn't know if that army of weapons will turn on him.

 

I think Let the Lord of Chaos Rule order was to not kill Rand, let him think hes doing what he needs to, and when he thinks he's ready for the Last Battle all his support will crumble at the last minute, catching him offguard enough that he can then be brought down, Ta'veren or not. The ultimate victory is the one where you enemies fall harder.

[RAND AL THOR]

First off, I apologize to anyone who thinks that this topic is resolved and should rest. I would like to state my views because I still disagree.

 

When beginning this thread, I was 90% sure that Rand is not LOC.

 

After reading all the posts, I am only 60% sure.

 

There are a lot of comments. But I'll try to justify some.

 

QUOTE

How's about a DOUBLE meaning?  Yes chaos means chaos.  The

DO never told the Forsaken to stop with the (general) chaos bit.  He just

added in the "Lord of Chaos" (a specific person, perhaps Rand, perhaps someone else) bit.

UNQUOTE

 

That would be highly confusing. "Increase chaos and also let the lord of chaos rule" might confuse even the Forsaken. And Demandred said that 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' is directly from the DO.

 

TAIM"S COMMENT

Reds have been hunting and gentling men who can channel. When they come to Taim to bond them, the AS are in a desperate situation. "Chaos" would most certainly fit there. How damaged and confused must the White Tower be to send sisters to bond Asha'man?

 

SEMI'S COMMENT TO SUROTH

She said Let the LOC rule after stating that she had murdered the Imperial Family. That plunged Seanchan into chaos. Remember that the Seanchan were getting powerful in Randland. They may actually have conquered much more land. By destabilising their homeland, Semi almost caused the Return to fail. Semi's plan was thwarted by Tuon's return. But IF it had succeeded, it would only have created more confusion and chaos.

 

STATEMENT ABOUT GENERAL CHAOS

Someone mentioned that creating general chaos is not a clever scheme somewhere on this thread. IT MOST CERTAINLY IS. By plunging Randland into confusion, the DO is ensuring his victory because the Light would have a hard time preparing a defense.

 

AES SEDAI REBELLION

Both sides are under influence from a Forsaken-at least till Halima left.

 

Did anyone ever ask RJ who the LOC is? Seems like an obvous question and most likely a RAFO.

 

 

The meaning of the order Let Rand Rule, I think the plan was this; let him do whatever he wants. He hasn't come far yet, so he can't be anywhere near on the same skill level of Lews Therin, which means he isnt as likely to see the hidden manipulations the Shadow are so used to employing. Let Rand do what he wants, and do whatever can be done to infect and steal it all from him. Again, the best example, the Black Tower. We all know it is infested with Darkfriends on an even greater level than the White Tower. Rand asked Taim to create an army of weapons, which he did, but Rand now doesn't know if that army of weapons will turn on him.

 

I think Let the Lord of Chaos Rule order was to not kill Rand, let him think hes doing what he needs to, and when he thinks he's ready for the Last Battle all his support will crumble at the last minute, catching him offguard enough that he can then be brought down, Ta'veren or not. The ultimate victory is the one where you enemies fall harder.

 

The order came from the DO in Book 6. By that time Rand had accomplished the follwing:

1) Killed Aginor

2) Killed Ishamael

3) Seized control of Tear

4) United most of the Aiel and gained a powerful Aiel army

5) Gained control of Cairhien

6) Captured Asmodean

7) Killed Rhavin

 

Rand friends achived the following:

1) Killed Be'lal

2) Killed Lanfear

3) Enslaved Moghedian

 

All powerful blows against the Shadow. The DO cannot possibly underestimate Rand after all that.

 

Furthermore, the Forsaken tried to stop many of Rand's plans. Semi actually attempted murder in Book 11. And yet we know that the DO's LOC order is still in effect in Book 11 due to Taim's comment at the end. So what's going on there if they were not supposed to harm Rand?

 

 

[Majsju]

Look at one of the main events in LOC: Rand is kidnapped. A kidnapping where Mesaana seems quite involved, Mesaana who is a close ally to Demandred.

 

Kidnapping seems quite contrary to letting Rand do whatever he wants, if Rand was supposed to be the LOC.

[Guest Dreadlord]

True, but I think if the only goal was to kill Rand, if that was all the Shadow wanted, Im pretty sure he would be dead by now. Why would Osan'gar be under Rands nose for so long, without even making an attempt? I would say then, that rather than letting him do what he wants its let him live, and we will harm everything he has so it wont work for him. Mesaana being involved in the kidnapping is not only the obvious benefit of having him but also attemting to contribute to the friction between Rand and Aes Sedai, as well as the Aes Sedai-Ashaman relationship problems.

 

Since Ishamael and Aginor-and Balthamel-have been reincarnated I would say those blows were definitely non-lethaland the Shadow has fully recovered from that. Lanfear is a different case because she is weaker of course. Fair enough, Rand has done some good stuff, but look at what the Shadow has done.

 

Ishamael being temporarily taken out was traded for Rand taking a permanent wound. If I had to choose to either die and be reincarnated or taking a wound that wont heal the choice for me wouldnt be that hard. Theyve also taken a hand off him and damaged his eyesight, he is almost but not quite a cripple.

 

Im not sure if this bit is in KoD, but at some point he was thinking to himself that a man who can channel beyond the imagining of someone who cant channel. He created an army of "weapons of unimaginable power" yet he doesnt dare use them until its been sorted, in case he ends up grabbing hold of the wrong end. And in creating said army he ended up giving a chunk of it to the Shadow, and not so small a chunk.

 

I remember reading somewhere an interview about Rand and the state he is in late in the series. RJ compared it to a boxing fight, its like Rand has lasted all the way into the last round, and all he can do is throw one more punch, so it has to be the knockout, and that his attempting to form an alliance with the Seanchan is that last punch.

 

Nobody can deny that Rand being alive so long has given the Shadow at least as many benefits as its had drawbacks

[RAND AL THOR]

I would say then, that rather than letting him do what he wants its let him live, and we will harm everything he has so it wont work for him.

 

But how does this fit with the order Let the LOC rule? Hindering Rand's plans is surely the opposite of that?

 

Mesaana being involved in the kidnapping is not only the obvious benefit of having him but also attemting to contribute to the friction between Rand and Aes Sedai, as well as the Aes Sedai-Ashaman relationship problems.

 

Again, this somewhat contradicts the DO's order. Putting Rand in captivity more or less puts his freedom at zero. He can't do anything while imprisoned in the Tower. This does not fit with the DO's order because the kidnapping event would have bound Rand and not given him free rein to do anything.

 

But lets look at the kidnapping event from the view that Rand is not LCO: what would have happened? All of Randland would likely have been in uproar. Elaida fully intended to show off that she had 'tamned' the DR. In that case both Tear and Cairhien would have rebelled against the Dragon. The Aiel would have broken and fled and just imagine the mayhem of thousands of Aiel running loose etc...

[Mysterious]

Again, this somewhat contradicts the DO's order. Putting Rand in captivity more or less puts his freedom at zero. He can't do anything while imprisoned in the Tower. This does not fit with the DO's order because the kidnapping event would have bound Rand and not given him free rein to do anything.

 

But lets look at the kidnapping event from the view that Rand is not LCO: what would have happened? All of Randland would likely have been in uproar. Elaida fully intended to show off that she had 'tamned' the DR. In that case both Tear and Cairhien would have rebelled against the Dragon. The Aiel would have broken and fled and just imagine the mayhem of thousands of Aiel running loose etc...

 

True the kidnapping can be seen as going against the DO orders but we're forgetting about the Shaido. The Shaido betrayed their agreement with the WT and tried to capture Rand. Sammael handed over something to Sevanna that she could use to control Rand.

 

For the balance of evidence,I'm going for LoC = Rand.

 

I thought it was mainly self-evident throughout the series that the DO and Ishmael wanted Rand alive and bound to the Shadow. Why exactly? I'm not so sure as to that answer. The most probable answer I can come up with is that they want to use him to directly attack the Creator.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Snowy Dawn]

``Furthermore, if Siuan was deposed due to the fact that she already knew of the Dragon, then it could have happened with the full Hall. Instead, Elaida quickly acts with the minimum number of sitters needed to depose Elaida.''

 

Raising an Amyrlin requires the greater consensus (unanimity); does deposing one? Does anyone have a quote on this? It matters because Elaida carefully avoids notifying ten of the twenty-one sitters, so that for her move to replace Siuan with herself she avoids having anyone in the Hall who would not have stood for her. (Siuan thought that the full Hall would not have voted for Elaida's actions---plainly the Blue sitters would oppose, but those who fled also, and Seaine Herimon would have as well).

 

To me, BTW, it seems that the way Elaida went about it makes doubtful the claim that she was lawfully raised Amyrlin. At the very least, she <i>cheated</i>, and if she did comply with the letter of tower law, she did so by violating the spirit thereof.

[maximuswynn]

Who knows who the real Lord of Chaos is, Rand or simply the Forsaken and the embodiement or bringers of chaos.However, inducing chaos is totally for the DO'S ORDERS.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I thought it was mainly self-evident throughout the series that the DO and Ishmael wanted Rand alive and bound to the Shadow. Why exactly? I'm not so sure as to that answer. The most probable answer I can come up with is that they want to use him to directly attack the Creator.

Mysterious

 

That's the problem, though.  It does seem clear that Ishy and later Moridin want Rand kept alive.  From the way Demandred passes on the orders he got, it also seems that the DO wants Rand kept alive.  Demandred even wonders why that is so.  Why they must "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule."

 

Yet, Shaidar Haran, who is the Hand of the Dark, and contains some part of the DO 24/7, has ordered Carridin to find and kill Rand immediately.  Each month that Carridin is unsuccessful, another member of Carridin's family is killed.  That indicates that the DO's priority clearly is Rand's death.  The orders and the deaths continue through five books.

 

Yet, in LoC we learn that it was Sammael who sent the Trolloc attack into the Stone of Tear, and that Shaidar Haran ordered Semirhage to send opposing Trollocs and Myrddraal.  That pretty clearly indicates that the DO does not want Rand killed.

 

Again, at Shadar Logoth, Moridin turns up to save Rand from Sam's ambush.  Another indication that both he and the DO want Rand kept alive.

 

So how come the disconnect?  Is the DO simply schizophrenic, with the left hand literally not knowing what the right hand is doing?  The conflicting sets of orders and direct actions make no sense.

[havoc110]

Regarding SH:  The level of independent thought or direct DO control still remains debatable.  However, the scene with SH and Carradin appears in TDR.  Almost assuredly it is a new plan being given to Dem in the LoC prologue.

 

Also, the orders going down the chain to the BA also appear in LoC prologue.  Katerine regards the order to preserve Rand as making no sense.  Now this is not direct, but it would seem to imply that previous orders were different.

 

Also, regarding the "generalized chaos" interpretation.  Listen to Mesaana's thoughts:

 

"It could work; it could hand them everything.  But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable."

 

This passage "suggests" that the LoC plan is a Hail Mary, all or nothing, glory or death kind of plan.  To me, it doesn't speak to a generalized chaos definition.

 

Also, regarding the LoC plan.  It is certainly possible that Team Moridin is operating under a completely different plan than Team Dem.  The KoD Forsaken happy hour clearly shows the 2 factions are still in place, albeit with Moridin loosely running the show.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Regarding SH:  The level of independent thought or direct DO control still remains debatable.  However, the scene with SH and Carradin appears in TDR.  Almost assuredly it is a new plan being given to Dem in the LoC prologue.

 

Maybe.  But Shaidar Haran's order was never countermanded.  And, it was Moridin who finally had Carridin killed in Lady Shiane's basement.  SH had promised to take him to Shayol Ghul and take forever killing him.  Since a member of Carridin's family had died every month since SH gave him that order, Carridin would have been killed just as SH had promised if he was being killed for failure.  Since it was Moridin's order and since the death was relatively humane, I can only conclude he wasn't killed for failing but for trying.

 

Previously, Moridin had pretty much seen to it that Sam died for trying.

 

There are at least two different main plans at work.  Probably three.

 

Shaidar Haran's - kill Rand.

Moridin's - get the artifacts Rand has but leave him alone to the maximum extent possible.  And now, kill Mat and Perrin.

Demandred's - capture Rand and any goodies he might have.

[Snowy Dawn]

``However, the scene with SH and Carradin appears in TDR.  Almost assuredly it is a new plan being given to Dem in the LoC prologue.''

 

As far as I can tell, the Myrddraal that shows up in the Prologue to <i>The Dragon Reborn</i> is not Shaidar Haran, but just a plain old Myrddraal, presumably sent by one of the Foresaken. Just which one is not revealed. As we discover later on in <i>The Dragon Reborn</i>, others (perhaps all) of the Forsaken are now free. It could be Sammael, for example. Ishamael is also possibility, since (a) he knows the network of Dark Friends and about Carridin, and (b) he might have given up trying to turn Rand---for the time being---after the fight in the skies over Falme. But it need not be Ishamael. (Carridin was one of those brought to the meeting with Ishamael in <i>The Great Hunt</i>.)

[Mysterious]

Normal Myrddraal do not smile or laugh, only SH has shown a sense of humour.

 

Shaidar Haran's - kill Rand.

Moridin's - get the artifacts Rand has but leave him alone to the maximum extent possible.  And now, kill Mat and Perrin.

Demandred's - capture Rand and any goodies he might have.

 

I do not believe the orders are as significant as the actions taken by those following the orders are.

 

The DO is trying to actively manipulate events to his liking and trying to keep the forces of Light and certain elements of the Shadow unbalanced.

 

The DO is using a pronged approach to get the maximum effect i.e. Keep the Light off-balance, and cover all of his bases i.e. Keeping the Forsaken and the Athan'Shadar from going haywire.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Majsju]

It is an early version of SH that pays a visit to carridin, RJ confirms this in the old Question of the Week.

[Snowy Dawn]

Majsju: I did not know that RJ had said that. Thanks for the info. But ``early version'' seems right to me---that Myrddraal does not do anything characteristic of Shaidar Haran, as we come to know him later. But if it was an early version, at whose direction does it act? The Dark One or one of the Forsaken? (The Forsaken are still at this point doing there own thing, until Shaidar Haran, in full fig, comes later to round them all up. Yes?)

[Snowy Dawn]

I wrote: ``But ``early version'' seems right to me---that Myrddraal does not do anything characteristic of Shaidar Haran.

 

Oops!! I just reread the passage in question, and that Myrddraal does indeed smile and then laugh. My bad. Sorry. But is the Dark One trying to kill Rand at this point? Does he/it know that Rand is no longer on Almoth Plain? Is this some other plot we don't know about? Is the attack on the camp in the Mountains of Mist an attempt to kill Rand or an attempt to kill the others but capture him?

[Bob T Dwarf]

All we know for certain is that Shaidar Haran's order to Carridin is effectively, " I don't care what your Lord Captain Commander, any Chosen, or your own desires say, DROP EVERYTHING AND KILL RAND AL'THOR NOW!!!  OR ELSE!"

 

Then, as we see throughout the next five subsequent books, as promised, one member of Carridin's family is killed and fed to the Trollocs every month that goes by without Rand being killed.  According to the timeline a period of 347 days.

 

That is drastically at odds with all the other plans, schemes, and orders that supposedly emanate from the DO.

 

So, is there really any comprehensive plan to the Dark's efforts or not?  And, if so, what in the seven hells is it? ???

[benr]

If the DO could "win" without the DR, he would have won long ago.  He requires the DR at the final battle to "win", i.e., break the wheel.  The Forsaken are notorious for following instructions while attempting to further their own ambitions - some of them might even realize that a "victory" by the DO might be disastrous for them, too.  The DO is the only one that can "win" here; the Light can only maintain the status quo - keeping the DO sealed away.  The DO, the Light, and faithful DFs all are trying to get Rand to SG; the "final battle" will be something none of us have envisioned yet (or so I think!).  The instructions to Carridin paralize him; he is operating on contradictory instructions, thereby increasing the chaos.  The DO is the true Lord of Chaos.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That may be true, but most of the Forsaken are operating as though it isn't.

 

SH, who is the closest thing to an avatar for the DO definitely isn't.

 

And, actually, they're probably right.  The prophesies say that the Light has a chance if the Dragon Reborn makes it to TG.  But, that they have no chance at all if he doesn't.  So, really, all the Dark needs to do is to kill him.

 

Those who are trying to keep him alive seem to be doing so for purely personal reasons.

[benr]

But Bob, what is the chance that the Light has?  Can the DO be destroyed?  What would be the repercussions of that?  I think the Wheel requires a balance; maybe life could go on hunky dory if the DO is destroyed, but I think it would just become what our world is today; the evil of man would take over (not that there is any shortage of the evil of man in Randland).  I see these possibilities:  1. The DO destroys the wheel, breaking free, and remaking this world in his image - I read that as the end.  2. The DO is destroyed; the Wheel must create a new DO to balance itself.  3. The DO is destroyed, and everyone lives happily ever after.  4. The DO is re-sealed (in a re-sealable bag), and the next age comes.  Then, of course, there is my pet theory, that the DO is actually the Creator, trapped in his own creation, attempting to use the DR over and over to escape this prison of his own creation. (Don't bother refuting that last one, folks, it has been attacked enough already - but apparantly, I am unconvinced.)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well then, we shall just take our handy-dandy Ziploc-baggy-full-o-Shaitan and pummel you soundly with it.

 

So, there!  :P